All the ELECT please stand up

[Kermos]

Woe to free-willers and choosers because you claim to approach the Holy God in accord with your willpower/choice yet out of accord with the Word of God reserving choice unto God for God's glory thus rendering the Light unapproachable for you therefore you march toward a consuming Fire bearing the wrath of God for your rebellious unbelief (John 14:6, 1 Timothy 2:5, 1 Timothy 6:16, 2 Samuel 6:6-7, Leviticus 10:1-3, Matthew 22:1-14, John 3:3-5, John 15:16, John 1:12-13, John 6:29, Deuteronomy 4:24, Hebrews 12:28-29, John 3:36)!

Prior posted 'woe to you free willers' (in this thread)

The Word of God, quoted in the following links to posts in this thread, reveals freewill is treacherously rebellious and a damnable lie.

These posts of this thread remain true, accurate, legitimate, legal, and Godly:

- The Righteous Sovereignty Of God Post

- The Audience Of Lord Jesus For John 14:16 And John 15:16 Are All Dicsiples In All Time Post

- Matthias And Joseph In Exhibit 7 With The Lord Jesus And The Apostles "All the Time" Post

- The Logic Statement (IF/THEN) Eliminating Any Question Of The Audience For The Supper Recorded In John Chapters 13-17 Being All Disciples In All Time Post

- (1) The Twelve mentioned in Matthew 26:20 et. al. does not indicate "only" the twelve, (2) Lord Jesus indicates in John 17:20 that the content of John chapters 13-17 applies to all His disciples of all time, and (3) the "you" in John 14:16 and the "you" in John 15:16 refer to all the disciples of Jesus in all time because of the about 120 recorded in Acts 1:15 and Acts 2:1-4 receiving the Holy Spirit as well as the Gentiles at Cornelius' place recorded in Acts 10:44 receiving the Holy Spirit Post

- The Repentance Is From God Not Conjured Up In Man By Man Post

- The Biblical Definition of Disciple Includes More People Than The 12 Apostles Post

- The Audience, Salvation, And 'I chose you' Words of Lord Jesus In John 15:16 and John 15:19 Post

- The God Chooses/Elects Unto Salvation Post

- Lord Jesus Describes Part Of His Essence/Character - God Alone Chooses In Salvation Doctrine Post

- The Genesis 1:31, Genesis 2:16-17, and Joshua 24:15 Reveal The Sovereignty Of God In Man's Salvation Post

- Addendum to Genesis 1:31, Genesis 2:16-17 Post Explaining Absence Of Choose Conjugate As Well As IF/THEN Application In Genesis 1-3 Post

- 1 Timothy 2:4 Exposited Truthfully That The Work Is Not Of Man Rather The Work Is Of God Post

- Demonstrating "Whole World" Indicates Multiple Meanings Regarding People In First John Where Two Starkly Differing Uses Of "World" Occur (1 John 2:2 and 1 John 5:19) Post

- The Further Use Of "World" Exposited Truthfully Demonstrating That Belief/Faith In A Believer Is A Work of God - John 3:16 and John 6:29 and John 15:16 Post

- The Intrinsic Quality of Christ Jesus includes God Choosing People for Salvation Not Vice Versa Post

- The Blessed Assurance of True Godly Worship and Love Post

- The Blood of Christ Being The Wedding Garment in Matthew 22:1-14 Post

- Both the promise of the Holy Spirit and the declaration by Lord Jesus that God chooses people not people choosing God occur in the self-same supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17 Post

Free-Will Doctrinal Error Amplified By Faulty English Translations And Free-Willian Lust For Glory In Salvation Exposed:

+ "@Taken: Do Not Be Taken Away In Free-will Error By Faulty English Translations (Includes Faulty Change Covenant To Agreement Rebuttal) Post

+ @GodsGrace: List of Lies About History Post

+ @GodsGrace: Illegally Try To Shoehorn 'Choose' Into John 3:16 Post

+ @GodsGrace: The Majesty of God in Matthew 6:13 - God leads, God delivers; God's Power Forever, God's Glory Forever Post

+ @CNKW3: Beholding Greek of 1 Peter 1:21-22 to see "God the souls of you having-purified in the obedience of-the truth" NOT people purifying themselves RATHER God purifying people Post

+ @CNKW3: Vessels Of Mercy Obey God In God's Power Versus Vessels Of Destruction Deny God's Word In Their Own Sin Post

+ @CNKW3: Persists In Denial Of The Word Of God By CNKW3 Trying To Make The Apostle Peter Say Different Than Lord Jesus Post

+ @CNKW3: More About Phrases About God's Control Sandwiching The Free-will Illusion Phrase Of The English Mistranslations of 1 Peter 1:22 Post

+ @CNKW3: More About Verses About The Promise Of The Holy Spirit To All Believers In All Time Presented By Lord Jesus At The Supper Recorded In John Chapters 13-17 With The Implications Of Jesus Saying 'You' In John 15:16 Post

+ @CNKW3: More Proof That The Word 'IF' Does Not Denote Ability Post

+ @CNKW3: Obey Defined Is 'To Fulfill The Command' - There Is No 'Choice' In The Definition With Scriptural Support For 'Believe' Not 'Choose To Believe' Post

+ @Enoch111: Fails to Understand 'Receive' Definition While Fails To Understand Acts 2 While Failing To Understand John 3:16 Post

+ @brakelite: Do not break the light! Love is a Fruit of the Spirit of Truth (Galatians 5:22), so a person must be born of the Holy Spirit to love (John 3:3) and understand love (1 Corinthians 13:1-13)

Continued to post 1342

 

[Kermos]

Continued from post #1341

+ @Earburner: adds "whosoever" to Revelation 22:17 right in front of condemnation for adding to Revelation in Revelation 22:18 as well as misapplies Hebrews 2:9

+ @Earburner: adds context illegally to Revelation 3:20 to try to support free-will

Returning to more of the Word of God, quoted in the following links, revealing freewill devotee's treachery and rebellion.

- God Blesses Us With Biblical History, And Free Willians/Pelagians/Armenians Fail To Understand History Post

- A Command Does Not Convey Ability To Carry Out The Command Post

- Squelching the Armenian Argument Of 'God specifically chooses to send some persons to hell' Post

- The Word of God Eliminates WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS Post

- The Apostle Peter Reiterates The Promise Of The Holy Spirit For All Believers In All Time (Acts 2:38-39 and Acts 2:18) That Lord Jesus Gave (John 15:26) Post

- All NT Letters Are To Believers So The Holy Spirit Gives Perspective In Hebrews 2:9 And "whosoever" Is Absent From Revelation 22:17

- We Believers Are Adopted In (Ephesians 1:5), Grafted In (Romans 11:17), Birthed In To The Kingdom Of God (John 3:3, John 3:5)

- Richly Scriptural post illuminating the exclusive sovereignty of God in man's salvation

- Fruit of the Holy Spirit of God in we believers explained, and this post includes the contrast between fruit of the flesh and Fruit of the Spirit of God

- Baptism/Immersion is of God, Living Water, in we believers

God saves by God's grace for God's glory! Praise the Lord Jesus!

 

[CNKW3]

Behold, the Apostle Peter writes "not the removal of dirt from the flesh" in 1st Peter 3:21, so Peter is not talking about water bath in a tub rather Peter is talking about immersion in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ where in the Holy Spirit-filled believer appeals to God for a good conscience. Here is the whole verse 1 Peter 3:21 of which you severely truncated in order to twist scripture into your false theology.

"Corresponding to that, immersion now saves you?not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3:21)

Behold, the Apostle John writes of Living Water of God and the immersion of us believers in (receive) the Spirit of God "Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, 'If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, "From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water."' But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive" (John 7:37-39).

Behold, the Apostle Peter said to be immersed in the of the Name of Jesus, Lord and God and His innermost being flows rivers of Living Water (John 20:28), "Repent, and each of you be immersed in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself" (Acts 2:38-39) - do not forget that the Apostle Peter also wrote "not the removal of dirt from the flesh" (1 Peter 3:21).

Lord Jesus also said this "whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life" (John 4:14) - that is "water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life"!!!

The word baptize is immerse, so the immersion is in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ!

CNKW3, you're very first citation in your post is in your attempt at deception, but your deception is exposed.

A liar cannot be trusted. You are caught in a lie about 1 Peter 3:21. You are caught lying about scripture AGAIN.

Lord Jesus is the Truth (John 14:6), and in the Gospel according to the Apostle Matthew, we find:

When the disciples heard [this], they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?"
And looking at [them] Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
(Matthew 19:25-26)

IMPOSSIBLE for people - impossible to be obedient for salvation - impossible to choose Jesus - impossible to do any deeds that please God; however, that leaves God alone for people's salvation - faith/belief in a believer is a work of God (John 6:29), obedience in a believer is a work of God (1 Peter 1:21), birth by the Spirit in a believer is a work of God (John 3:3-8), seeing the Kingdom of God is a work of God (John 3:3-8).

God alone saves man by God's grace for God's glory.

THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS. LORD JESUS SPEAKS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME BECAUSE HE ALSO SAID "I DO NOT ASK ON BEHALF OF THESE ALONE, BUT FOR THOSE ALSO WHO BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD" (JOHN 17:20)! ALL THESE WORDS OF JESUS ARE AT THE SAME SUPPER! ALL GLORY IS GOD'S! WITH MAN, SALVATION IS IMPOSSIBLE (MATTHEW 19:25-26)! ALL GLORY IN THE SALVATION OF MAN IS GOD'S (JOHN 15:5, ISAIAH 42:8)!

I didn’t think I had to post vs 20 because I assumed you people already knew what the context was. So I’ll post the whole passage since I know you won’t.
1 Peter 3:20-21 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure
“like figure” to what? WATER. The like figure is WATER BAPTISM. Please explain how I am taking this out of context and how the “like figure” has NOTHING to do with water as you so falsely believe.

whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
He puts in parenthesis what he is NOT talking about. He is explaining that he is NOT talking about water removing the filth from the flesh. This is all about water baptism removing your sins, not the filth of the flesh. That’s what salvation is....the removal of your sins. When is a persons conscience cleared? When their sins are removed. At what point under the new covenant does that take place? There is a definite point in time when a convert can say.....I know without a shadow of doubt that my sins have been forgiven. Why? Because i did exactly what God instructed in order for my sins to be removed. And it wasn’t....”accept Jesus into your heart and say this prayer”.

 

[Kermos]

I didn’t think I had to post vs 20 because I assumed you people already knew what the context was. So I’ll post the whole passage since I know you won’t.
1 Peter 3:20-21 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure
“like figure” to what? WATER. The like figure is WATER BAPTISM. Please explain how I am taking this out of context and how the “like figure” has NOTHING to do with water as you so falsely believe.

whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
He puts in parenthesis what he is NOT talking about. He is explaining that he is NOT talking about water removing the filth from the flesh. This is all about water baptism removing your sins, not the filth of the flesh. That’s what salvation is....the removal of your sins. When is a persons conscience cleared? When their sins are removed. At what point under the new covenant does that take place? There is a definite point in time when a convert can say.....I know without a shadow of doubt that my sins have been forgiven. Why? Because i did exactly what God instructed in order for my sins to be removed. And it wasn’t....”accept Jesus into your heart and say this prayer”.

The Apostle Peter alluded to the time of Noah flood water as a foreshadow (a figure, shadow) of the Living Water (actual, substance) in 1 Peter 3:20, but that's not the start of the passage! Oh, God made me fully aware of the passage prior to when I made last night's post, but I did not need to bring this up for your interpretation to be proven a lie. Let's get more context by getting more of the passage:

17 For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong.
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, [the] just for [the] unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits [now] in prison,
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through [the] water.
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you - not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ
(1 Peter 17-21)

The Apostle Peter wrote "For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right" (1 Peter 3:17), and this relates to 1 Peter 3:21 in this way, the Lord Jesus said "But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished!" (Luke 12:50); THEREFORE, THE APOSTLE PETER IS REFERRING TO PASSING THROUGH SOMETHING VERY, VERY DIFFICULT IN 1 PETER 3:17-21, BUT THE APOSTLE PETER ALSO REFERS TO THE LIVING WATER IN 1 PETER 3:21.

We believers are cleansed by the Living Water, not by a bathtub of water, and Peter makes that clear when he wrote "not the removal of dirt from the flesh" in 1st Peter 3:21, so Peter is not talking about water bath in a tub rather Peter is talking about immersion in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ where in the Holy Spirit filled believer appeals to God for a good conscience.

Your imagined context of obedience in your own power imposed upon scripture is your persistent denial of the Word of God who said "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" in response to the disciples question of "Then who can be saved?" (Matthew 19:25-26). You speak in Pharisee language!

Lord Jesus said "Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and of the platter; but inside of you, you are full of robbery and wickedness. You foolish ones, did not He who made the outside make the inside also?" (Luke 11:39-40) as well as "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness" (Matthew 23:27-28).

Behold, the Apostle John writes of Living Water of God and the immersion of us believers in (receive) the Spirit of God "Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, 'If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, "From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water."' But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive" (John 7:37-39).

Behold, the Apostle Peter said to be immersed in the of the Name of Jesus, Lord and God and His innermost being flows rivers of Living Water (John 20:28), "Repent, and each of you be immersed in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself" (Acts 2:38-39) - do not forget that the Apostle Peter also wrote "not the removal of dirt from the flesh" (1 Peter 3:21).

Lord Jesus also said this "whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life" (John 4:14) - that is "water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life"!!!

The word baptize is immerse, so the immersion is in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ!

CNKW3, you persist in trying to use 1 Peter 3:21 in a deceptive way, but your deception is exposed.

A liar cannot be trusted. You are caught in a lie about 1 Peter 3:21. You are caught lying about scripture AGAIN.

Lord Jesus is the Truth (John 14:6), and in the Gospel according to the Apostle Matthew, we find:

When the disciples heard [this], they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?"
And looking at [them] Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
(Matthew 19:25-26)

IMPOSSIBLE for people - impossible to be obedient for salvation - impossible to choose Jesus - impossible to do any deeds that please God; however, that leaves God alone for people's salvation - faith/belief in a believer is a work of God (John 6:29), obedience in a believer is a work of God (1 Peter 1:21), birth by the Spirit in a believer is a work of God (John 3:3-8), seeing the Kingdom of God is a work of God (John 3:3-8).

God alone saves man by God's grace for God's glory.

THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS. LORD JESUS SPEAKS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME BECAUSE HE ALSO SAID "I DO NOT ASK ON BEHALF OF THESE ALONE, BUT FOR THOSE ALSO WHO BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD" (JOHN 17:20)! ALL THESE WORDS OF JESUS ARE AT THE SAME SUPPER! ALL GLORY IS GOD'S! WITH MAN, SALVATION IS IMPOSSIBLE (MATTHEW 19:25-26)! ALL GLORY IN THE SALVATION OF MAN IS GOD'S (JOHN 15:5, ISAIAH 42:8)!

 

[Naomi25]

Do you have an honest and receptive heart when it comes to Bible study? Or do you only care about your man made doctrine?
.

I'd like to think I do. I most certainly enjoy reading and growing in understanding of God's word. However, as I do this I find it is most important to make sure that the passages I read and the conclusions I come to are from scripture alone and not assumptions.
You believe what I 'care about' is my 'man made doctrine'. This of course assumes I am incorrect and you are correct. I see it otherwise, of course. I would pose, and have provided, scriptures that show support of that. In fact, I have yet to see any scripture on your behalf that can make me pause and double think my stance. Your claims about scripture are one thing...what the scriptures actually say seem to be another, and your ability to prove otherwise doesn't push me towards your point of view, sorry.

Where’s the prayer they prayed for salvation in acts 2?

Where's the prayer the apostles prayed for salvation? Are we saying they weren't saved because we don't see them praying? Are we saying they aren't saved because the bible doesn't go into details about their exact baptisms?
How about Acts 4:4...a 'repeat' of the Acts 2 speach of Peters, only at the Temple...instead here it says instead of 'repent and be baptised' , but 'they heard and believed and were saved'.
And what about Paul himself in Acts? We read that 1- he was most definitely selected by God, not the other way around...he was intent on persecuting Christ and his followers before God 'chose' him. 2-Ananias, when he went to Paul, laid a hand on him and Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit, and only then went and was baptised. Are we saying, then, that a person who is filled with the Holy Spirit is not saved, not until they 'obey and are baptised'? Because I'd love to see you try and support that idea.
What about this, the ORDER is abundantly clear:

While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days. -Acts 10:44–48

....When did Lydia ask.....have you found me to be faithful? Before or after obedience to the gospel message preach?

....When did the Eunuch rejoice? Before or after baptism?

You rather miss the essential part of the verse here. It says "The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul". It was only then that she was baptized.
In other words, God sent the Holy Spirit to her, regenerated her, opened and renewed her heart to the truth. He saved her; and in response to that, now able to understand her need for a Saviour, and wanting to be obedient to God, THEN she was baptized.
As I say; Salvation comes first, then obedience follows. Obedience cannot earn salvation.

The same is true of the Eunuch. We see Philip read the word to him, and preach the gospel of Christ. And the Eunuch, understanding, then wanted to be baptized. People cannot understand the truth of God's word without the Holy Spirit first regenerating them. Salvation giving them a new heart to see.

How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?...But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. -Romans 10:14, 16–17

....When was the Jailor described as a “ believer”. Before or after obedience to the preaching of Paul?

This is rather bizzare wording, although, I suppose considering you point of view, perhaps not. I suppose you are trying to take a verse that rather solidly says "believe and you will be saved" and make it say "do something else and you will be saved".
Well, sorry, but if you read it, it really does just say "believe and you will be saved". And then, when you read on, you will see that they "spoke the word of the Lord to him and all who were in his household". What do you suppose that might had been and done? Could it have been the gospel? Could it have, as the verse (Rom 10:14-17) above tells us, bought this 'belief' that comes from hearing? Could the Holy Spirit have come, given new life, and prompted a response in them that urged them to obedience, in then getting baptised?
Odd, how that works, isn't it? Or...not really, since that's how the bible tells us it works.
But, rationality tells us to. The dead heart cannot prompt obedience that leads to life. The dead heart doesn't give a fig about anything but themselves. Only a heart that is new and filled with the wonder and love of Christ has the desire to be obedient. And a new heart only comes through new life...salvation.

....When were those in Rome freed from sin? Before or after they “obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine delivered to them”? Rom 6: 17,18

But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. -Romans 6:17–18

We were once slaves, but now that we are not, we have become obedient. Having been set free from sin, we have now become slaves of righteousness.

Do you not see the clear progression there? We get set free FIRST, then we respond to Christ, because we are then free and able to. You cannot NOT be a slave, until you are not. You cannot a slave to righteousness until you are already free from sin. So...obedience CANNOT come first in earning our salvation. Salvation must come first, it must provide for us that which we CANNOT earn for ourselves, in order for us to then take up obedience or the position we now should hold....

....When did Paul tell the Ephesians that they were “saved by grace through faith”? Before or after obedience to the preaching of Paul?

.....who is Christ going to take vengeance on? 2 thes 1:7,8 Those who have obeyed the gospel or those who have NOT obeyed the gospel? According to you a person could be saved without obedience to the gospel (since salvation comes first) so I guess Christ will be taking vengeance out on some saved people.

This is a matter of fruit, and, I feel, a matter of you not understanding me...whether purposely or not, I'm not sure.
It seems to me that you are saying that I have claimed a person does NOT have to obey Christ at all. That being a Christian is not a matter of obeying, just "believing". Just 'wish upon a star' and you'll be saved. Which is NOT what I, or the bible, is saying or has ever said.
If you will go back and read what I have said, you will note I say that obedience comes AFTER initial salvation. Obedience is a form of fruit. It's an overflowing of a few things; love, awe, but also from the Holy Spirit in our life. And, you might note, the Holy Spirit is something a person receives at the moment of salvation. THIS is why when a person becomes saved they WANT to become baptized. Baptism is not something that magically saves us; it's a public declaration of what has happened internally; that Jesus Christ has made us anew and we want to shout about it with joy. Baptism is where we get to stand before people and do just that...delcare with our mouths and actions that Jesus Christ is Lord of all...OUR Lord. And believe me...people DON'T want to do this unless they're already saved.

so you are incapable of being obedient to repentance, confession and baptism for remission of your sins? That’s pretty pathetic to teach someone they are incapable of simple obedience to repentance, confession, and baptism.

Have you read the OT? Israel proved to us again and again that the human condition IS pretty pathetic. And that even the 'good, obedient fellows' who managed to follow all the rules nice and proper, like Paul, were just unbending, uptight, legalistic rule-followers who were NOT saved and were called vipers by our Lord.
If you are looking for something that is NOT pathetic, look to Jesus. That is why he came, after all, he came to save us. He came because we couldn't save ourselves. All our own strivings only led to legalism. Which is what you are pushing.

 

[Naomi25]

Let me get this straight?
Christ said......go preach the gospel, he that believes and is baptized shall be saved
And you say that it is boasting on our part if we are obedient to that teaching? We can “boast” about something we’ve done for salvation? Because salvation clearly comes after baptism, according to Jesus.
Read the passage. Mk 16:15,16
It is the height of arrogance to say to Jesus......”don’t you know I will be able to boast if I submit to this baptism you are commanding”!

Well, even if we count Mark 16 as to be counted as canon, you will still note that 'baptism' comes AFTER 'believe' in the sentence structure. So even there...no...baptism does NOT, in any way, shape or form, come BEFORE, in Christ's teachings, before 'believing'. And you will also note that the passage goes onto say that 'he who does not believe will be condenmed.'
Christ does not say "he who does not get baptised will be condemned." And that is what you are doing; you are conflating baptism with salvation.

And, if I may add, it is not ME who 'says that it is boasting' to be able to claim any part of salvation. It is Paul...you know, the guy who wrote big chunks of the bible for God?


For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. -Ephesians 2:8–10

I'm not sure how much clearer that passage can get. We have been saved through grace and faith. Which is NOT our doing, it is fully a gift, so that we cannot boast. You may think 'boasting in the obedience' of baptism is a foolish thing to suggest, but perhaps you need to look back at the history of foolish things humans can and do claim before God. You would do well to realise that anything our prideful hearts could claim to an advantage, they will. This way...the grace and gift way, there is simply no way. We come empty, upon our knees, hands outstretched. And it is, quite simply, freeing. And as Eph 2:10 says, it allows us to then walk in the obedience of good works with a light heartedness that is not burdened by our own pride.

Again....you are saying it is impossible for you to be obedient to repent, confess and be baptized so that your sins may be blotted out?
All I know is that it wasnt too hard for 3000 on Pentecost.
It wasnt too hard for the Samaritans.
It wasn’t too hard for the Eunuch.
It wasn’t too hard for Saul of Tarsus.
It wasnt too hard for those in Ephesus.
It wasn’t too hard for a Roman Jailor after midnight and an earthquake.
But now we know it’s too hard for you.

You seem to be missing the overwhelming point. It wasn't too hard for them....because they had, by that point, received the Holy Spirit. Thus, the obedience being spoken of is in response to the 'believe' that clearly came first. You're most welcome to go back over those passages, but as I pointed out above, the 'hear and believe' quite obviously came first.

So you don’t have to repent?
Paul said....God commands all men everywhere to repent. Acts 17:30

That is the hardest commandment of any in the Bible. To decide to change your life to live for Christ. How many people have to give up their jobs, their current lifestyle, their friends, family, etc in order to become a Christian? Can a homosexual continue to live a homosexual life and be a Christian? Can an alcoholic or drug addict continue to do drugs and be a Christian? Many more examples could be used. What if you sleep around and fornicate? Can you “accept Jesus as your personal savior” and continue to shack up and sleep around?

I'm starting to 'get' that this is the 'sticking point' between us. You simply don't seem to understand what the bible says about where true salvation and regeneration happens. Read this passage again:


For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. -Ephesians 2:8–9

even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, -Ephesians 2:5–6


For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. -Romans 5:10


who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, -2 Timothy 1:9

Salvation is a GIFT from God, an act of divine will for a divine purpose. Take Paul, for instance. Do you think he was seeking Christ? He was, no doubt, seeking an intense sort of uptight legalism that had no love, joy or breathing room. One that clearly saw it just and right to kill and torment in effort to be right. But God had a purpose for him, and scripture tells us that "while dead in his trespasses, Paul was made alive with Christ". In other words, Christ, not Paul, made the decision. Paul was the recipient of the gift and Christ was the giver. Paul, however, was most grateful, as are all who receive truth and eternal life.
And that's part of the point: Salvation brings the truth. A realisation of the 'old life' you were living, and a desire to see it dead and gone.
You ask me about the need to repent? My word you do! But how does a person repent of a lifestyle that seems fine? The bible tells us that a person without God is 'dead in their trespasses'. How does a dead person know they need to repent? That's like saying a fish knows they need to fly. Why? They like the water, the water is warm and comfortable and all they've ever known.
A person can only become aware of their sin and their need to repent of them...of the conscious need to put them to death one by one, if they can suddenly hold them up to something else...the life of Christ, and know that his life is the one we are truly meant to live. We need to be regenerated before we can acknowledge that.
But don't mistake me; a person who 'claims' to be saved and doesn't feel the need to repent...has not been truly made new. New life brings fruit.

He is writing to the church in Rome. Correct? Please tell, by using the text, at what point were the sins of these individuals forgiven? Paul said....they were “freed from sin” AFTER they did what? It wasn’t “nothing”
He also began the book and ended the book with “obedience to the faith”.

So, we just ignore everything else within it? Nice try. Like I've said before; unless you manage to harmonize all passages, I'm simply not interested. What you're doing is trying to make one passage mean everything to the exlusion of all the others, and that won't fly.

Also, the beginning of Romans, while including 'obedience to the faith', does mention BEFORE obedience that "according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, through whom we have received grace and apotleship...."
So...call me daft, but considering what Paul goes on to tell us in his book about what 'receiving grace' means, I still think I'm on solid ground by insisting that salvation comes by grace first and that leads to obedience. And pretty much ditto for the end of the book.

 

[Naomi25]

Are you gonna stop there or keep on reading? I’ll do it for you again. You have a habit of stopping when you like what it says.
Rom 4:6-8 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
So who is Paul considering when he talks of imputation of righteousness? Let’s keep reading....

Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
What? You mean the man whom God will not impute sin is the man whom he has forgiven of his sins?
Well, I’ll ask you for the 10th time....at what point under the new covenant does God forgive a person of their sins? At what point is a persons sins “remitted”, “blotted out”, “washed away”, “freed from”? At what point does a person “rise to walk in newness of life”? It’s not a hard question for the honest Bible student, who has not been corrupted by the Billy Graham’s of the world.

No, I have a habit of stopping when I've proved my point. But if you like, I could just upload an entire version of the bible, would that do? I suppose you could read it all, it does prove my point for me.

And, for the life of me, I can't figure out why you'd want to continue posting on anyway. Paul is just using some Psalm of David to prove that a person is not justified by works. David is rejoicing in his God, who looks upon faith as righteousness, not works. Which would seem to me to enhance my argument, not yours.
But you want to speak about the moment of forgiveness? Does this passage tell us this? It tells us that righteousness comes from faith, and a righteous man will be blessed and the Lord will not count his sin. And, of course, we have Paul elsewhere telling us that faith is, exclusively, a gift of grace, not something to be earned.
So, rather than bag out an elderly man that has probably done more for the Kingdom than you ever will, perhaps we might stick to scripture?

Saved by grace? Why didn’t I think of that?
The Bible also says......that the grace of God has appeared to ALL men. Tit 2:11
So, following your doctrine to the logical conclusion all men will be saved.

Except, it's not MY conclusion, is it? Your comment was on a bible verse. You just mocked scripture, congratulations. Once more I remind you that you spend most of your time and energy trying to enhance one or two verses rather than uniting them all. At present what you are teaching outright contradicts ooodles of other scriptures. Outright. And no amount of mocking me, or those scriptures, will change that. Sorry.

So when I submit to obedience in baptism, a baptism that is commanded by God; you are teaching that this is a work of my doing? I had no part in the planning. I had no part in the action other then to stand there while someone else immersed me in water, but for some reason I can now boast.
So, just exactly what work did I do that I can boast about?
You really think I can go before God and say....look what I did I was baptized, so you gotta save Me!
Well, it works the same for belief as well. I can go before God and say....look what I did I believed just like you told me so you gotta save me.
So, just what kind of “work” do you think “we” do in baptism that is different from belief?

So, you just woke up one day and found yourself next to a pool of water with someone ready to dunk you?
Obviously you had SOME part in the planning. You gave your assent to the planning. You planned, I hope, your testimony after the baptism, that all men may hear WHY you were being baptised...you know, the part where you 'confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord'.

But, you are still missing the point. Wildly. 2 points.
1-Salvation MUST come from God alone as grace alone. It can hardly be termed 'a gift' otherwise, can it. That's like giving someone a birthday gift at a car wash. "Here's a $10 voucher to clean your car...Happy Birthday!" Sure, they price has been paid, but you've still got to do the work. And if you've got to do the work, you're still left with the ability to look at that car and go, 'that's a nice job there'. And no...I don't buy that you just woke up by a pool of water.
2-question....when you woke up by this pool of water, did you by any chance NOT love Jesus, but when some random guy dunked you, you came up and by some amazing miracle you did? Or, did you hear about Jesus, read God's word and fall in love with Jesus? Did you commit yourself to him and THAT'S why you followed his command to get baptised, meaning that you already loved him when you woke up by that pool of water and had some random guy dunk you?

The point being...no one gets dunked when they don't love Jesus. And if they do, they're just taking a bath...it means nothing and it regenerates nothing. Life testify's to that.

here is the first verse.
2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
Where is the promise of life? “In Christ”.
Look what he says in the next chapter.
2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Where is salvation found? “In Christ”

So I’ll ask you again....
How does one get “into Christ”? You like posting scriptures then post those

One wonders the point. After all the verses that said quite clearly that salvation is a gift; that grace and faith come not by works, you're still pushing works. I also expect you'll accuse me of not posting the "whole" passage, or "enough" of the passage.
But, sure, here we go:


But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. -Romans 3:21–28



There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, ...

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. -Romans 8:1–3,9–17

I think the passage above is also clear on the order: freedom in Christ comes BEFORE we live out that freedom of obedience in the Spirit. Slaves cannot live a life of freedom.


Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. -2 Corinthians 5:17


yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose. -Galatians 2:16–21

 

[Naomi25]

I am editing this one because I have now read all of your post. If you don’t feel like responding then no worries there either. Appreciate your time and effort. I will say I’m disappointed with what you said about acts 2. The text says baptism was “for remission of sins”. But you said no, and gave me your opinion. I have given and continue to give in the following paragraphs biblical evidence of exactly the point at which sins are forgiven and it’s never at the point of belief.

I think we must try and start shortening our posts, as we're having some blowout, but, we'll see how we go, as we are covering some extremely important content.
Acts 2 is an interesting text and we can speculate a bit on why baptism is mentioned before 'forgiveness of sins and reception of the Spirit'. I'd say it was for two reasons; unless the men present had hidden under a rock, they would have heard of John the Baptists minitry, which had always been loudly and proudly to 'reprent of sins'. This would have given the men present a familiar place to land in terms of repentance and how to think of it. And I'd say Peter mentioned it as he did because it simply hadn't had a chance to come up and yet it is, as you say, an important part of Christian life. It IS important to know that the Christian's walk is one of repentance and obedience. But the simple fact is that the men ASKING and SHOWING repentance, had already been touched by the Spirit. Otherwise they would have been shouting other things or picking up rocks.
This simple weight of scripture allows us to know...yes know, that regeneration comes first. I'm sorry if that offends you and how you read it, but sense and clear reading of scripture show it as well.

Nowhere does the Bible say......salvation is a gift of Gods grace and mercy ALONE. I would be happy to study those passages if you have them. God has warned us all through the ages to NOT add to or take away from his word. Adding the word “alone” is a huge problem in the Christian world today. Salvation is by nothing ALONE.

Really? You're going to ignore ALL those verses just because they don't wack "alone" onto the end? That's your sticking point, your flag planted on a hill? In fact, you're going to take that flag and run in the opposite direction because there's no "alone" there? Brave move. Totally illogical of course, but brave.
Let me ask you to follow along...If every human being is spiritually dead in sin (Eph 2:5) and is under the just and holy wrath of God because of our sin (Rom5:9) we are spiritually dead and legally guilty before God, right? So, if any of are to escape hell and enjoy pleasure in God's presence forever, God himself will have to raise us from spiritual death and provide a way for his wrath to be absorbed and his heart to be 100% for us, despite our sin. Now, I understand you are suggesting his wrath can be quietened by our 'obedience', but unless you think baptism will cover 100% of all your sins, and unless you are suggesting that dead people can 'raise themselves' now as well, I'd say you have some way to go.

The bible, however, provides us with an answer to this problem. God, in his love and mercy, sent Christ to bear our punishment and become our righteousness. Alone. Unless you think your efforts can measure up to that which our Lord offered. Because only his were acceptable. Only his were 'once for all'. Only his were not seen by God as 'filthy rags'. Only he is 'the way, the truth and the life'. There IS only Christ. And if there IS only Christ, we need to pay attention to how the bible offers him, wouldn't you say?

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. -Ephesians 2:1–10

Your turn! Please be providing VERSES that show how salvation is ONLY through work. Or baptism, or obedience. Or whatever it is you are claiming. Thank you.

AGAIN...nowhere does the Bible say salvation comes through putting trust in Christ ALONE. To put ones trust in anybody is to do what they say. Hebrews says that Christ is the author of salvation to all them who OBEY him. Not just put their “trust” in him alone. I would be happy to study those passages as well.

Then let’s focus on ALL the passages that tell us salvation is from God ALONE and salvation comes before obedience which also would include belief in Christ. Just please provide all those passages so we can review them.

Nope...your turn. You're pretty pushy for all these 'prove it' verses. I think I've done a pretty good job. I'm not sure I've seen a shred of evidence from you. IF you hypothesis is that for a belief to be valid it has to have A VERSE that outright STATES it in its ENTIRETY...I think you might be in trouble.

We know that John the Baptist and jesus disciples baptized in water. And Christ commanded it in the great commission. Mt 28, Mk 16. We know it’s water because he commanded men to do it. Men can’t baptize in the Spirit. It was only Christ that did that.
In the first gospel sermon of all time in acts 2 they were commanded to be baptized in water. We know it was water for a couple of reasons..
1. Christ had just commanded them to do it just 10 days earlier.
2. When you look at Peter in acts 10 with Cornelius he said....can any man forbid water that they should not be baptized.
So yes acts 2 was in water, which covers acts 3 as well.
Acts 8 we know Phillip baptized in water. The Eunuch said....here’s water what hinders me from being baptized. We know Paul also baptized in water. That covers acts 9,16,18,19. The greatest chapter on baptism is Rom 6 and he describes it as a burial and a planting and resurrection. Plus, man cannot baptize with the Spirit so we know it was water. That is what Christ commanded.

I just showed that they were baptized in water in the name of the lord which is the same as in the name of the father, son, and HS. Why, because we are told how the fullness of the godhead resided in Jesus. Col 2:9

I'm sorry, but are you seriously trying to equate water baptism with the moment of salvation? Well, good luck with finding a verse to "PROVE" that.
Water baptism is a good and true and obedient thing to do; a biblical thing, but it is a symbol, to ourselves and to others, of what Christ has done within us via the Spirit.

Romans 6 is, of course, most profound, but you can see the symbolism involved. It doesn't mean we should consider baptism less profound or important in what it does say, but there is no way we can use Romans 6 to prove salvation via water or obedience.
Col 2 follows the same thought, although it also specifically mentions being 'raised in him' through faith.
And faith is really the key to it all. It's through faith in Christ that we can share in his death, burial and resurrection, that he can take our place and us his. When we get baptised we are symbolising this transaction, honoring it and declaring it. There is no better way for a person to make the public announcement that Jesus IS the Christ, his own Lord and Saviour.

The only ones baptized with the HS in acts 2 were the apostles. If you care to study that point we can. First it was the apostles in acts 1 that were told...
Acts 1:4-8 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
This is the promise of Mt 3:11. This promise is being directed to the apostles. Nobody else was with them at the time.
Are you saying that this promise is also for us today? That we too are not to depart from Jerusalem?

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
this was a promise made directly to the apostles. 10 days later we find this promise being performed on Pentecost. This promise was made to no one else.

I'm sorry, but...are you saying that no one else has the Holy Spirit? I think I had better confirm that before I go on...

 

[Naomi25]

His death on the cross was necessary so that our sins COULD be forgiven. His death on the cross did not forgive us all of our sins. We have a part to play in coming in contact with the blood of Jesus. If we don’t then everybody is saved and we know that is not true.

I think that's obvious, although I think how your definition and mine on "how we play a part" in "coming into contact with the blood of Jesus" will be different.

Yes we are saved by belief, faith, trust, blood, hope, baptism, confession. The point is we are not saved by anything “alone”.
Salvation is all about sin. Sin separates from God. Isa 59:1,2
In order to be reconciled back to God those sins MUST be remitted, forgiven, washed away. So, when does that happen?

The trouble is, of course, that sometimes we can happily hold a handful of things like those you've named above; belief, faith, trust, hope; and they can all be together without a problem.
And then sometimes you run into a verse and idea that cannot be 'nestled' with something else. And yet that is what you are trying to do.
When scripture tells us that salvation is grace from God and can be nothing other than a FREE GIFT, it leaves us nowhere to go. Absolutely nowhere. You cannot try and balance baptism on that same hand. Or good works, or sinlessness. Or anything. Because he has decreed it to be a FREE GIFT FROM him. Would you honestly try and add a single thing to it?
And while you are correct, salvation is the moment that sin is forgiven, that is still NOT something we have direct control over. Again, when we are dead IN our trespasses, we are dead. It is clear in scripture that it is God who reaches out to us in THAT state WITH that free gift. And IN that moment, as he saves, he frees. That's why Pauls speaks so much of it being a freedom. Salvation, that free gift, is the moment God frees us from sin...it is something within his power, not ours.

You leave out verses 32-34? This is one of the biggest snow jobs around. You aren’t alone I have seen billy Graham and many others perform this same con for years. It is criminal and quite irritating and I’m trying to have patience.
Did a Roman Jailor know anything about the Lord Jesus? How could the Jailor put his trust in someone he knew nothing about? When you read the next few verses we find.....
Paul preached to him about Jesus
The man repented and washed their stripes.
Then he was baptized in the middle of the night. (How was he baptized if Paul didn’t preach baptism)
Then the text calls him a believer in vs 34.
I know you are an intelligent individual, so why do you let yourself be duped like that? You should be angry at whoever you have learned this from.

You know what: I'm getting pretty sick of you asking for verses, then when I post them, you having a go at me because I didn't post "all the verses".
Because you know what? NONE of the verses you've got a bee in your bonet about have done a single thing to help your case. Including this one. So what if afterwards Paul got bandaged up and baptized them all. It still doesn't change the fact that he told them to BELEIVE first, and that people who DON'T believe in Jesus Christ DON'T get baptized.

You keep harping on about none of the verses having "alone" in them. In fact, you whole argument rests on that. You don't provide any verses that meet your own criteria, and you think its cool to call me a con job and criminal.

Yeah. I think I'm about done here. I've posted the same verses again and again. If you not going to listen to them, you're not. Perhaps you need to get baptised again.

 

[CNKW3]

You believe what I 'care about' is my 'man made doctrine'. This of course assumes I am incorrect and you are correct. I see it otherwise, of course.

No, the Bible is correct, not me, not you.
And it’s the Bible that says....
He that believes and is baptized shall be saved. You say the opposite
Its the Bible that told believers....
to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. You say the opposite
It’s the Bible that says....
We are NOT saved by faith alone. You teach the opposite
It’s the Bible that says...
The like figure (water) baptism doth also now save us. You teach opposite.
It’s the Bible that teaches....
that one must believe and confess in order to be saved. You teach the opposite.
It’s the Bible that says....
Baptism “washes sins away”. You teach the opposite.
It’s the Bible that says....
We are “baptized into Christ”. You teach the opposite.
It’s the Bible that NEVER says...
You are saved at the point of belief alone. You teach the opposite.

Do I believe we are saved by grace...absolutely
Do I believe we are saved by faith.....absolutely
Do I believe one must repent in order to be saved....absolutely
Do I believe one must be baptized in order to have their sins remitted, washed away, forgiven....absolutely
Do I believe we are saved by the blood of Christ....absolutely
BUT, I DO NOT believe we are saved by ANY of these ALONE.
PS 119 says...the SUM of thy word is truth.

As I read on I noticed you said you have the HS. You wanted to know what this OP is about?
Well here it is....
I don’t believe you have the HS! You can’t prove it either. All you have is your word saying.....I have the HS. You cannot demonstrate ANYTHING. Those in the first century who actually had the HS could demonstrate and prove it. You can’t.

 

[CNKW3]

Where's the prayer the apostles prayed for salvation? Are we saying they weren't saved because we don't see them praying? Are we saying they aren't saved because the bible doesn't go into details about their exact baptisms?

Of course we know about their baptism.
They didn’t pray for salvation. They were baptized with Johns baptism for remission of sins. That’s what Christ taught and that’s what they taught as well. Do you really think Christ would have chosen 12 men who refused to be obedient to his teaching. John 4:1,2 people who would “reject the counsel of God”. Lk 7 29,30

How about Acts 4:4...a 'repeat' of the Acts 2 speach of Peters, only at the Temple...instead here it says instead of 'repent and be baptised' , but 'they heard and believed and were saved'.

It doesn’t say “saved” in the text of acts 4. It said they heard and believed and it then said...the number of them was about five thousand. Doesn’t this imply that they did the same thing as the first three thousand on Pentecost. According to you, Peter preached one thing that converted 3000 souls and then something else to convert a few more. He left out repentance though. Everybody knows repentance is a requirement for salvation. Why would he leave something so important out? He didn’t! I’ve explained it before. To believe in the Bible is to obey. John 3:36. The Israelites were said to be kept out of the promise land because they believed not. We know they believed in God they just didn’t “believe” enough to obey.

And what about Paul himself in Acts? We read that 1- he was most definitely selected by God, not the other way around...

Of course Saul was selected by God. I never said he wasn’t. The text actually tells us that.....”he was a chosen vessel”.

he was intent on persecuting Christ and his followers before God 'chose' him. 2-Ananias, when he went to Paul, laid a hand on him and Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit,

The text does NOT say he was filled with the HS right then. The text says...
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
It doesn’t say at what point Saul was “filled with the HS”. It only says he would be.
So, you cannot prove he was filled with the HG before baptism. It doesn’t matter if he was or he wasn’t. Being filled with the HS does not mean “saved”.

and only then went and was baptised. Are we saying, then, that a person who is filled with the Holy Spirit is not saved, not until they 'obey and are baptised'? Because I'd love to see you try and support that idea.

Judas had the HS. Balaam had the Spirit. A donkey had the Spirit. I guess they too were “saved” individuals. The Spirit can work however he wants to accomplish his goal. The HS fell on the apostles in acts 2 but it wasn’t for salvation. It was....
.....for effect, to get everybody's attention so they would listen to the message
And
......it was so the Apostles would all have the ability to speak in tongues to the diverse audience on Pentecost.

What about this, the ORDER is abundantly clear:
While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.Then they asked him to remain for some days. -Acts 10:44–48

A better and more accurate order is found in the next chapter...
Acts 11:4,15 But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying, And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Also, the Bible is plain about what would save Cornelius and it wasn’t the Spirit.
Acts 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
They were to hear “words” by which they would be saved. How many “words”? I submit ALL the words were required for salvation. At what point could Peter quit preaching and Cornelius be saved. Plus the text clearly says....As I began to speak the Spirit fell on them. They had not even heard but a few “words” and you have them saved without all the “words” of salvation. Where does it say the Spirit would fall for salvation? Nowhere does it Ever say that.

 

[Enoch111]

Do I believe one must be baptized in order to have their sins remitted, washed away, forgiven....absolutely

It is the blood of Christ that washes away our sins supernaturally. Water CANNOT wash away sins.

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. (Rev 1:5,6).

So I trust you can see from Scripture that your belief is DEAD WRONG.

 

[Kermos]

Of course we know about their baptism.
They didn’t pray for salvation. They were baptized with Johns baptism for remission of sins. That’s what Christ taught and that’s what they taught as well. Do you really think Christ would have chosen 12 men who refused to be obedient to his teaching. John 4:1,2 people who would “reject the counsel of God”. Lk 7 29,30
...snip

I'm going to give a little preview of a post which illuminates CNKW3's practice of lawlessness for CNKW3 teaches traditions of men just like the Pharisees. I plan to post in full in a moment, but here is the preview.

Biblical Account Four: the Apostle John recorded "Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were" (John 4:1-2), and the Apostle John recorded "And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit.'" (John 20:22).

Recalling fundamental point two, John said Lord Jesus immerses in the Holy Spirit (Luke 3:16), yet Jesus' disciples were baptizing more than John, so this clearly refers to the baptism of John being done by Jesus' disciples.

At John 4:1-2, mention of Jesus' disciples baptizing in the baptism of John ceases.

Chronology sequence is highly relevant here. John the Baptist started baptizing in the water of the Jordan River; afterward, Jesus' disciples baptized in the baptism of John; afterward, John the Baptist was put to death by Herod; afterward, Jesus entered Jerusalem on a colt; afterward, Lord Jesus said in the past tense "Was the baptism of John from heaven or from men?" (Luke 20:4, Matthew 21:25). In the moment that Lord Jesus used the past tense for the baptism of John, Lord Jesus made it clear the baptism of John was, not "is", rather "was".

These events were followed even later by Lord Jesus saying "Receive the Holy Spirit" (John 20:22) to the disciples as well as even later the wonderful outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4)!

 

[Kermos]

BAPTISM, BELIEVERS, AND BEAUTY

The Greek word "baptizo" is translated into English as "baptize" with a definition of immerse, submerge, dip under.

Biblical Account One: John, the son of Zacharias (John the Baptist), proclaimed "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire" (Luke 3:16).

Fundamental Point One: John said he immerses in water (Luke 3:16).

Fundamental Point Two: John said Lord Jesus immerses in the Holy Spirit (Luke 3:16).

It is crucial to remember these two fundamental points throughout this post.

Biblical Account Two: Lord Jesus says "This is the one about whom it is written, 'BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU, WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY BEFORE YOU.'" (Luke 7:27).

John prepared Jesus' way before Jesus, and John said Lord Jesus immerses in the Holy Spirit.

Biblical Account Three: Luke recorded "When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God's justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John" (Luke 7:29-30).

John said he immerses in water, and here Luke wrote of "immersed with the immersion of John". Luke also wrote that the Pharisees were not "immersed by John".

Remembering the fundamental points above:
- one: John the Baptist said he immerses in water (Luke 3:16).
- two: John the Baptist said Lord Jesus immerses in the Holy Spirit (Luke 3:16).

Biblical Account Four: the Apostle John recorded "Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were" (John 4:1-2), and the Apostle John recorded "And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit.'" (John 20:22).

Recalling fundamental point two, John said Lord Jesus immerses in the Holy Spirit (Luke 3:16), yet Jesus' disciples were baptizing more than John, so this clearly refers to the baptism of John being done by Jesus' disciples.

At John 4:1-2, mention of Jesus' disciples baptizing in the baptism of John ceases.

Chronology sequence is highly relevant here. John the Baptist started baptizing in the water of the Jordan River; afterward, Jesus' disciples baptized in the baptism of John; afterward, John the Baptist was put to death by Herod; afterward, Jesus entered Jerusalem on a colt; afterward, Lord Jesus said in the past tense "Was the baptism of John from heaven or from men?" (Luke 20:4, Matthew 21:25). In the moment that Lord Jesus used the past tense for the baptism of John, Lord Jesus made it clear the baptism of John was, not "is", rather "was".

These events were followed even later by Lord Jesus saying "Receive the Holy Spirit" (John 20:22) to the disciples as well as even later the wonderful outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4)!

Biblical Account Five: the Apostle Peter declared "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." (Acts 2:38-39).

The Apostle Peter commanded "each of you be immersed in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins"! There is no mention of being immersed in water in a bath tub! THE APOSTLE PETER COMMANDED TO BE IMMERSED IN THE NAME OF JESUS! These words of Peter are even after John 20:22 and Acts 2:1-4!

Thus the Apostle Peter repeats the promise for all believers in all time to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit made by Jesus (John 14:16-17, John 14:26, John 15:26, John 16:7-11, John 16:13-14) as well as John the Baptist (Matthew 3:11, Luke 3:16), yes, Peter repeated these as recorded by Luke in Acts 2:38-39, and Peter declared the promise with the multitude present after the 120 persons indwelt by the Holy Spirit went out of the room and started proclaiming the Name of Lord Jesus in the streets of Jersualem at Pentecost!

Biblical Account Six: Luke recorded "A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, 'If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay.' And she prevailed upon us" (Acts 16:14-15).

First, Luke wrote "THE LORD OPENED HER HEART" (Acts 16:14).

Second, Luke wrote "household had been immersed, she" which is absent of the baptism of John because Luke did not write "household had been immersed in water in a tub, she".

Biblical Account Seven: Luke recorded the jailer's inquiry to Paul and Silas "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" (Acts 16:30).

Luke's record of the account of the jailer and his household continues with:

"They said, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.' And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household. And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household."
(Acts 16:31-32)

First, the jailer and his household were commanded to believe in Lord Jesus.

Second, the jailer and all this household immersed in the word of the Lord, and immediately he and his household immersed in the Spirit of God (Acts 16:33, Luke 3:16).

Third, it is key to note that Acts 16:33 does not include "immersed in water in a tub"!

Continued to post #1355

 

[Kermos]

Continued from post #1354

Biblical Account Eight: Respecting the disciples in Ephesus with whom the Apostle Paul conversed, Luke recorded "He said to them, 'Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?' And they [said] to him, 'No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.' And he said, 'Into what then were you baptized?' And they said, 'Into John's baptism.' Paul said, 'John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.' When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus" (Acts 19:1-5).

The Acts 19 passage written by Luke does not state that the disciples were immersed in a bath tub of water by Paul at the time Paul was conversing with the disciples.

Luke wrote "When they heard this", that is, they heard Paul say that John the Baptist told the people to believe in Jesus, the One coming after John the Baptist, after which Luke continues with, "they were immersed in the name of the Lord Jesus", that is, Paul immersed them in the Truth (John 14:6), and the Holy Spirit indwelt them (Acts 19:6)!

Thus, the Apostle Paul is in accord (Acts 16:31-32) with Lord Jesus when Jesus used the past tense for the baptism of John (Luke 20:4, Matthew 21:25) further illuminating the point of past tense for the baptism of John!

Biblical Account Nine: The Apostle Peter declares that "God the souls of you having purified in the obedience of the truth through Spirit" (1 Peter 1:21-22).

Thus the Apostle Peter ascribes the purified soul to God as well as obedience of the truth to the Holy Spirit!

Biblical Account Ten: The Apostle Peter wrote "For Christ also died for sins once for all, [the] just for [the] unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits [now] in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through [the] water. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you - not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3:18-21).

Thus the Apostle Peter's words tie in with the Apostle John's words where he wrote (1) of Lord Jesus' words about the Living Water of God with (2) the immersion of us believers in (receive) the Spirit of God: "Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, 'If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, "From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water."' But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive" (John 7:37-39).

Thus the Apostle Peter alluded to the flood water during the time of Noah as a foreshadow (a figure, shadow) of the Living Water (actual, substance) in 1 Peter 3:20.

Focusing in on another point the Apostle Peter made, he wrote "For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right" (1 Peter 3:17), and the concept of "suffer" in 1 Peter 3:17 relates to 1 Peter 3:21 in this way, the Lord Jesus said "But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished!" (Luke 12:50); THEREFORE, THE APOSTLE PETER IS REFERRING TO PASSING THROUGH SOMETHING VERY, VERY DIFFICULT IN 1 PETER 3:17-21, BUT THE APOSTLE PETER ALSO REFERS TO THE LIVING WATER IN 1 PETER 3:21.

In 1 Peter3:17, notice that Peter wrote "if God should will it so" because God is in control!

We believers are cleansed by the Living Water, not by a bathtub of water, and Peter makes that clear when he wrote "not the removal of dirt from the flesh" in 1st Peter 3:21, so Peter is not talking about water bath in a tub rather Peter is talking about immersion in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ where in the Holy Spirit filled believer appeals to God for a good conscience.

Biblical Account Eleven: Lord Jesus says "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:19-20).

Behold, here Lord Jesus commands to immerse in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit!

Jesus did not command to immerse in water in a bath tub!

A convert from the world to the Kingdom of God (written another way, a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ) most certainly, if led by the Spirit of Truth, may be immersed in a bath tub of water or the water of a river similar to the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:26-40) for a public declaration of faith bestowed by God!

As evidenced in the above scriptural citations, the baptism of John was, yet the baptism of God is!

Jesus commands us believers to immerse disciples in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit!

The Holy Spirit purifies us believers (1 Peter 1:20-21)!

Immersion in the Name of Lord Jesus Christ is a blessing of God, a precious gift of God!

Immersion in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is a blessing of God.

The Holy Spirit immersion of we believers is exclusively a work of God (1 Peter 1:20-21)!

Immersion and baptism are synonyms.

Praise the Lord Jesus for his faithfulness! Amen! Come Lord Jesus Come!

 

[Naomi25]

No, the Bible is correct, not me, not you.


As I read on I noticed you said you have the HS. You wanted to know what this OP is about?
Well here it is....
I don’t believe you have the HS! You can’t prove it either. All you have is your word saying.....I have the HS. You cannot demonstrate ANYTHING. Those in the first century who actually had the HS could demonstrate and prove it. You can’t.

Man, I don't need to prove a sweet, blessed thing to you. If I have the Holy Spirit that is, quite obviously, between my Lord and I. And also, quite obviously, it will be me paying the consequences one way or the other come judgement day. And while I often get frustrated by the pace of my walk with my Lord, I can say with a clear conscience that I do not fear that day. And if I do not fear that day, what on earth do you think I have to prove to you?

 

[atpollard]

How is it that you oppose Rev. 3:20?
[20] Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Ans. You honestly don't know!

How is it that you keep quoting what God says to HIS CHURCH on the narrow path and trying to apply it to the God-hating world content to travel the wide road?

 

[CNKW3]

It is the blood of Christ that washes away our sins supernaturally. Water CANNOT wash away sins.

I don’t disagree. And since everybody is not saved by the blood, there is a point at which the blood saves. So now, show me at what point the blood actually washes a persons sins away?
Wouldn’t it be at the same point, the Bible says a person has their sins removed? If not,why not?
Like....
Acts 2:38, 22:16; Rom 6:3,4,17,18; 1 Cor 6:11; Col 2:11-13; 1 pet 3:21.
In acts 20 we find that Jesus shed his blood for the church which is his body. When were those in acts 2 added to the church/body? After baptism, not before. Acts 2:41,47

 

[CNKW3]

I'm going to give a little preview of a post which illuminates CNKW3's practice of lawlessness for CNKW3 teaches traditions of men just like the Pharisees. I plan to post in full in a moment, but here is the preview.

Biblical Account Four: the Apostle John recorded "Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were" (John 4:1-2), and the Apostle John recorded "And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit.'" (John 20:22).

Recalling fundamental point two, John said Lord Jesus immerses in the Holy Spirit (Luke 3:16), yet Jesus' disciples were baptizing more than John, so this clearly refers to the baptism of John being done by Jesus' disciples.

At John 4:1-2, mention of Jesus' disciples baptizing in the baptism of John ceases.

Chronology sequence is highly relevant here. John the Baptist started baptizing in the water of the Jordan River; afterward, Jesus' disciples baptized in the baptism of John; afterward, John the Baptist was put to death by Herod; afterward, Jesus entered Jerusalem on a colt; afterward, Lord Jesus said in the past tense "Was the baptism of John from heaven or from men?" (Luke 20:4, Matthew 21:25). In the moment that Lord Jesus used the past tense for the baptism of John, Lord Jesus made it clear the baptism of John was, not "is", rather "was".

These events were followed even later by Lord Jesus saying "Receive the Holy Spirit" (John 20:22) to the disciples as well as even later the wonderful outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4)!

The lord said...”receive the HS” but the apostles didn’t receive the HS until many days later on Pentecost. So that was obviously an action to prepare the disciples for what was to come. We know this because in acts 1, when the lord ascended they had not received the HS at that point, they had only been promised the Spirit. The Spirit actually came to them 10 days later. You are right chronology does matter, like in acts 11 and the account of Cornelius.

 

[CNKW3]

Man, I don't need to prove a sweet, blessed thing to you. If I have the Holy Spirit that is, quite obviously, between my Lord and I. And also, quite obviously, it will be me paying the consequences one way or the other come judgement day. And while I often get frustrated by the pace of my walk with my Lord, I can say with a clear conscience that I do not fear that day. And if I do not fear that day, what on earth do you think I have to prove to you?

I’m just saying...the people who actually had the HS could prove it. You nor anyone like you who claims this can prove anything. You just go by feel. What if that feel comes from the devil. What if the Spirit you believe you have came from Satan? In acts 23 Paul said he had lived in all good conscience up until that day. So, this means that the whole time he was persecuting Christians he thought he was doing the right thing in the eyes of God. Was he? Would be have been in good standing with the lord even though he had a good clean conscience? The conscience proves nothing if it’s not backed up by truth. Real truth, not what you think truth is.
Jesus said...he that believes and is baptized shall be saved. That is real truth.
In acts 2....those that were baptized were added to the lords body. The body of those who are saved. This is real truth whether you believe it or not.