The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[Mungo]

Surely you're not suggesting they're not dead? Do we really need scripture to ascertain whether someone who lived 1800 years ago is now very dead, and therefore can't hear you when you talk to him?

"He is God not of the dead, but of the living.” (Mt22:32)

He [Jesus]was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, 19in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water." (1Pet 3:19-20)
Did Jesus go and preach to the dead or to the living?

To the good thief on the cross
“In truth I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 21:43)

We are full of confidence, then, and long instead to be exiled from the body and to be at home with the Lord. (2 Cor:5:8)
Paul does here imply that there is a state when we are with the Lord (i.e. in heaven) but have no body.

And there is more if those are not enough.

 

[Philip James]

How do you know this?

Glory to God,
Taken

I have known this since before I can remember.
My faith a gift to me from my Father, a gift procured for me by the faith and prayers of the Church.

But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it,

and that from infancy you have known (the) sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

 

[Mungo]

[7]...the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

What Scripture says;

A "holy thing" was sent to Mary's Womb.
From Mary's womb would come forth, that "holy thing".
Luke 1:35

"holy thing" - how grotesque.I wouldn't call the Son of God a "thing".
Lk 1:35 - “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you;
therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God."

That "holy thing" is to be called:
The Son of the Highest.
Luke 1:31

The child is to be called the Son of God.

That "holy thing" is to be called;
JESUS.
Luke 1:30

The child is to be called Jesus

That, Jesus "WAS NOT SENT TO EARTH with his "REPUTATION".
Phil 2:7

but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

1. The second person of the Trinity, the "Word" became man and took the name Jesus
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1)
"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father."
2. What is this "reputation"?

You may have LEARNED, OF Jesus' "REPUTATION" He had IN HEAVEN...However He did NOT come to earth, Enter Mary's Womb, Come forth from Mary's Womb, "WITH" His "REPUTATION".

Jesus was "conceived" in Mary's womb. The Second Person of the Trinity did not "enter"
"And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus." (Lk 1:31)

Phil 2:
[5] Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Do YOU have Scriptures saying Mary IS the mother of "CHRIST"?

Mary is the mother of Jesus. (Lk 1:31)
Jesus is the Christ (do you need scripture for that?)
Therefore Mary is the mother of Christ

Do YOU have Scriptures saying "flesh and blood bodies of men" GO to Heaven?

I've never said"flesh and blood bodies of men" go to heaven. We wait for the Resurrection to get our bodies.

OR "souls" or "spirits" IN Heaven, Have a mother IN Heaven?

A mother is always a mother. Don't need scripture for that.

OR "GOD" has a MOTHER or FATHER?

Glory to God,
Taken

Mary is the mother of Jesus
Jesus is God
Therefore Mary is the mother of God.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Surely you're not suggesting they're not dead? Do we really need scripture to ascertain whether someone who lived 1800 years ago is now very dead, and therefore can't hear you when you talk to him?

Hmmmmmm . . . wasn’t Moses “dead” when Jesus had a conversation with him at the Transfiguration??

Are the “great cloud of witnesses” (Heb. 12:1) alive in Christ – or are they “dead”?? Doesn't a “witness” see and hear??

Are the elders in Heaven “dead” who are taking the prayers of the faithful to God (Rev. 5:8)??

Was Lazarus “dead” while in the Bosom of Abraham??
How about the Rich Man who spoke to Abraham (Luke 16:19-31??

When Jesus spoke to the spirits in prison (1 Pet. 3:19) – were they “dead” and unable to hear Him??

Physically dead means NOTHING.
We never die spiritually – nor does Scripture support your false SDA invention of “Soul Sleep” . . .

 

[Taken]

I have known this since before I can remember.
My faith a gift to me from my Father, a gift procured for me by the faith and prayers of the Church.

Thank you for your answer, However the question was not about a GIFT of Faith.

The Question was HOW do you know Jesus is the Christ.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

"holy thing" - how grotesque.I wouldn't call the Son of God a "thing".

Grotesque? LOL
That HOLY THING...is the Word of God, that you may call the Son of the Highest, Jesus, Lord, Holy, Sinless, son of Abraham, son of David, son of Joseph, son of Mary, Son of God, Saviour, Redeemer, Maker, and numerous other things.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1)
"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father."

Are you claiming the Word of God, IS JESUS?

2. What is this "reputation"?

It's your quote, you define the "reputation".

Jesus was "conceived" in Mary's womb.

.

Scripture says "SHE" Mary will "conceive" in her womb.

What definition are you using for "conceived", when you say, Jesus was "conceived" ?

"And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus."

(Lk 1:31)

Mary is the mother of Jesus. (Lk 1:31)
Jesus is the Christ (do you need scripture for that?)
Therefore Mary is the mother of Christ

No, I asked for a Scripture that said Mary is the Mother of Christ.

A mother is always a mother. Don't need scripture for that.

What is "a mother" according to Jesus?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Mungo]

Grotesque? LOL
That HOLY THING...is the Word of God, that you may call the Son of the Highest, Jesus, Lord, Holy, Sinless, son of Abraham, son of David, son of Joseph, son of Mary, Son of God, Saviour, Redeemer, Maker, and numerous other things.

"the Son of the Highest, Jesus, Lord, Holy, Sinless, son of Abraham, son of David, son of Joseph, son of Mary, Son of God, Saviour, Redeemer" etc is a person not a "thing".

Are you claiming the Word of God, IS JESUS?

Scripture says so.
"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father." (John 1:14)

It's your quote, you define the "reputation".

No, it was your quote. You define it.

Scripture says "SHE" Mary will "conceive" in her womb.

What definition are you using for "conceived", when you say, Jesus was "conceived" ?

It's not a definition. It's the use of the past tense.
Mary will conceive Jesus.
Therefore Jesus was conceived.

Why do you have a problem with that?

 

[Ezra]

Another statement with no scripture.

Hebrews 4:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Hebrews 9:27 King James Version (KJV)
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Romans 8:26 King James Version (KJV)
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. dead people can no longer pray

 

[BreadOfLife]

How do you know this?

Glory to God,
Taken

I know it from Scripture and Tradition.
How did the Bereans know this??

 

[brakelite]

"He is God not of the dead, but of the living.” (Mt22:32)

He [Jesus]was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, 19in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water." (1Pet 3:19-20)
Did Jesus go and preach to the dead or to the living?

To the good thief on the cross
“In truth I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 21:43)

We are full of confidence, then, and long instead to be exiled from the body and to be at home with the Lord. (2 Cor:5:8)
Paul does here imply that there is a state when we are with the Lord (i.e. in heaven) but have no body.

And there is more if those are not enough.

No where near enough..they dont say what you want them to say. Not one scripture can you show me that states that anyone is consciously in heaven, apart from those who were translated such as Enoch and Elijah. No where in scripture does it state that anyone can go to heaven without waiting for the resurrection.

 

[Taken]

"the Son of the Highest, Jesus, Lord, Holy, Sinless, son of Abraham, son of David, son of Joseph, son of Mary, Son of God, Saviour, Redeemer" etc is a person not a "thing".

The "THING" is the "holy" "WORD" of God.

God Himself announced He had SENT His WORD into this world, and what HIS WORD SAID, came to pass.

Isa 41
[4] Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning?
I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Isa 48
[3] I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.


God Himself foretold He Again would SEND "HIS WORD" into this world and His WORD would PROSPER, to where He sent His WORD.

Isa 55
[11] So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Luke 1
[35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The Lesson is:
"IF" God SENDS His HOLY WORD, out of HIS MOUTH, TO (ANY MAN); Gods WORD WILL "PROSPER" IN that man.

Further revelations IN Scripture, REVEALS, God SENDS "HIS" WORD, to a mans "CIRCUMCISED" (new) Heart.

Scripture says so.
"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father." (John 1:14)

Yes, the WORD of God "became" FLESH, IN THE "FLESH LIKENESS, AS A MAN", in a BODY prepared of God.

Phil 2 [8] And being found in fashion as a man...

Heb 10
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body a hast thou PREPARED me:

No, it was your quote. You define it.

Sorry, thought you were introducing something else.

REPUTATION...is from Scripture.
The Word of God was sent to earth...
"WITHOUT" Reputation.

Phil 2
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

He did NOT come to earth....AS GOD....
He came to earth....AS A SERVANT...

It's not a definition. It's the use of the past tense.
Mary will conceive Jesus.
Therefore Jesus was conceived.

Conceive...

The question was, What does the word "Conceived" mean to YOU.

Why do you have a problem with that?

Not sensical, when I asked you what a word you're using means to you, and you reply, as if it has no definition.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

I know it from Scripture and Tradition.
How did the Bereans know this??

PhillipJames said: "Jesus IS the Christ."

[QUOTE Taken asked PhillipJames: "How do you know this?" [/QUOTE]

BOL answers the question. BOL KNOWS Jesus is the Christ, in the same fashion as a Berean; from Scripture and Tradition.

Thank you BOL. Are you a Berean?

Glory to God
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

Thank you BOL. Are you a Berean?

Glory to God
Taken

You didn't answer my question.
How did the Bereans know Jesus was the Christ, the Messiah??

 

[Taken]

You didn't answer my question.
How did the Bereans know Jesus was the Christ, the Messiah??

Acts 17
[11]
...they received the word ...
and searched the scriptures daily, whether "those things" were so.
[12]
Therefore many of them believed;

"Those things" ... in the Scripture they Searched Daily, was in the OT.

Are you a Berean?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Philip James]

Thank you for your answer, However the question was not about a GIFT of Faith.

The Question was HOW do you know Jesus is the Christ.

Glory to God,
Taken

Can one know Jesus apart from faith?

One can know 'of' him perhaps, but to know Him as the messiah, the Holy One of Israel, as our Lord and our God,
requires supernatural faith that only our Father can give us.

This is why Jesus says 'no one can come to me unless the Father draw him'.

So then if my answer was not clear enough,

I know that Jesus is the Christ, by the Grace that God has bestowed on me, through the Faith that He gave me, in response to the prayers of the faithful (the Church) when they asked this gift for me...

Did my understanding of just who Jesus is and what He did for me grow and deepen as I grew and heard His words proclaimed and had them written on my heart... Yes! But He has always been with me and thus I have always 'known' that HE IS.

Peace be with you!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Acts 17
[11]
...they received the word ...
and searched the scriptures daily, whether "those things" were so.
[12]
Therefore many of them believed;

"Those things" ... in the Scripture they Searched Daily, was in the OT.

Are you a Berean?

Glory to God,
Taken

Nope – because I have the New Testament.

The point here is that although Protestants - and YOU - like to point to the fact they the Bereans searched the Scriptures for answers and consider them “Sola Scripturists” – they finally accepted a truth that wasn’t in Scripture at all – but taught ORALLY:
The fact the Jesus was the Christ – the Son of God.

So much for Sola Scriptura . . .

 

[Ezra]

Can one know Jesus apart from faith?

accepted by faith known through the holy spirit

 

[Taken]

Can one know Jesus apart from faith?

One can know 'of' him perhaps, but to know Him as the messiah, the Holy One of Israel, as our Lord and our God,
requires supernatural faith that only our Father can give us.

This is why Jesus says 'no one can come to me unless the Father draw him'.

So then if my answer was not clear enough,

I know that Jesus is the Christ, by the Grace that God has bestowed on me, through the Faith that He gave me, in response to the prayers of the faithful (the Church) when they asked this gift for me...

Did my understanding of just who Jesus is and what He did for me grow and deepen as I grew and heard His words proclaimed and had them written on my heart... Yes! But He has always been with me and thus I have always 'known' that HE IS.

Peace be with you!

Scripture reveals How one KNOWS Jesus IS the Christ...

Matt 16
[17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Nope – because I have the New Testament.

The point here is that although Protestants - and YOU - like to point to the fact they the Bereans searched the Scriptures for answers and consider them “Sola Scripturists” – they finally accepted a truth that wasn’t in Scripture at all – but taught ORALLY:
The fact the Jesus was the Christ – the Son of God.

So much for Sola Scriptura . . .

I pointed out and quoted Scriptural facts.
Doesn't matter to me if that bothers you.

The Scripture, nor I mentioned they were searching "for answers."

You should have known they were "searching" "for Verification", that what was being Preached to them was True.

Are you unaware, the NT had not been written...?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[brakelite]

Hmmmmmm . . . wasn’t Moses “dead” when Jesus had a conversation with him at the Transfiguration??

Are the “great cloud of witnesses” (Heb. 12:1) alive in Christ – or are they “dead”?? Doesn't a “witness” see and hear??

Are the elders in Heaven “dead” who are taking the prayers of the faithful to God (Rev. 5:8)??

Was Lazarus “dead” while in the Bosom of Abraham??
How about the Rich Man who spoke to Abraham (Luke 16:19-31??

When Jesus spoke to the spirits in prison (1 Pet. 3:19) – were they “dead” and unable to hear Him??

Physically dead means NOTHING.
We never die spiritually – nor does Scripture support your false SDA invention of “Soul Sleep” . . .

Who's talking about soul sleep, whatever that is? You full well know that those texts you have cited above do not support your claims of people in heaven now any more today than they did 500 years ago. With the exception of Moses who we know was raised, because Jesus was talking to him...Oh, and the testimony of Jude. As for the witnesses...angels...says nothing about them being "alive in Christ".
Add for the 24 elders...who knows who they are? We are not told..But obviously redeemed, therefore men, and therefore obviously resurrected...and the only resurrection we are told of in scripture is of those who were raised at the time of Christ's redirection and witnessed by many wandering the streets of Jerusalem. How they got to heaven we don't know...nor when. That doesn't support the concept however that every one else is in heaven also does it. A one off event a multitude does not make.
And the Lazarus and bosom of Abraham thing has been done to death..