The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

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Philip James

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Where did God say...Mary shall be called the Mother of God?

Not "EVERYONE" carried the Lord in their "WOMB".

Do you need God to say what you , yourself have shown here is self-evident?

Mary is Jesus' mother. Jesus is God.

Do you prefer the ancient Greek term Theotokos (God-bearer)?

Jesus is also a man, and thus does indeed have a 'mommy' (or whatever the Aramaic equivalent was in 1AD)

I don't understand why some have an issue with this. Does acknowledging Mary's unique relationship with her son change who Jesus is in any way whatsoever?

Peace!
 

Ezra

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I don't understand why some have an issue with this. Does acknowledging Mary's unique relationship with her son change who Jesus is in any way whatsoever?
yes she had a physical and spiritual relationship . but she has no more spiritual authority than me or any other born again Christian . the issue at hand is saying she hears our prayers and takes them to Jesus. that is false teaching.. the Holy spirit intercedes on our behalf. why dont you lay a side the catholic teachings read the Bible for your self. see if what has been said is true cp nad bread of life and the others who think mary has a special place in the kingdom to help us. is nothing more than mockery
 
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epostle

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A few years back I ran across a woman online who used to be a Baptist and had become a Catholic. She expressed perfectly how the term “Mother of God” is so vastly misunderstood by a good portion of Protestants, in describing how she used to think:

I felt that I was saying that a human being born at a certain time in history (a creature) had “created,” had given life to, God Himself, Who had not previously existed.​

Such an outrageous, blasphemous thing was, of course, never the intent of the phrase or title (which goes back to the early Church fathers) in the first place. Given these rather extraordinary misperceptions, it’s always good to clarify: “Mary is the mother of God the Son.” No Christian can argue with that.

If they deny that she is the mother of God (the Son), then they deny that Jesus is God, which they don’t want to do. If, on the other hand, they deny that she is the mother of God (the Son), then they deny the virgin birth, and in effect, also the incarnation, which they don’t want to do, either.

This resolves the problem altogether. The original Greek term Theotokos (literally, “God-bearer”) isn’t in Scripture, but it doesn’t have to be, since Scripture teaches that:
1) Jesus is God (many biblical proofs; John 1:1; Colossians 2:9).
2) Mary is His true mother (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:16, Matthew 1:18; Matthew 12:11, 13, 20; Matthew 1:46; Luke 1:31, 35, 43; John 1:15; John 2:1; Gal 4:4).
Ergo, “Mary is the Mother of God” [the Son].

Another, less direct, but equally effective way of arguing the point is noting Elizabeth’s exclamation to the Blessed Virgin Mary: “And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” (Luke 1:43, RSV). The Greek word for “Lord” here (as usually in the New Testament) is Kurios. It’s widely applied both to God the Father and to Jesus, since they are both “Lord” and God” and equal as the Father and Son in the Holy Trinity. In fact, in a single passage, both the Father and the Son are called “Lord” (Kurios):

Romans 10:9-13
(RSV) because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. [10] For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved. [11] The scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.” [12] For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and bestows his riches upon all who call upon him. [13] For, “every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.” (cf. also Mt 22:41-45; Mk 12:36-37; Lk 20:42-44; Acts 2:34)

Romans 10:13 cites Joel 2:32:
“And it shall come to pass that all who call upon the name of the LORD shall be delivered; . . .”

Thus, the New Testament applies Old Testament passages about God directly to Jesus, since He is God, and He and His Father are one (Jn 10:30).

Therefore, in calling Mary “mother of my Lord,” Elizabeth is at the same time calling her the “mother of God.” It takes a little digging into Scripture to discover that, but it’s plain and definite biblical teaching: part of the massive biblical evidence of the divinity or deity of Jesus Christ.

John Calvin, the most influential early Protestant leader after Martin Luther, wrote about this passage:
She [Elizabeth] calls Mary the mother of her Lord This denotes a unity of person in the two natures of Christ; as if she had said, that he who was begotten a mortal man in the womb of Mary is, at the same time, the eternal God. (Harmony of the Synoptic Gospels, comment under Luke 1:43)
Martin Luther also made many affirming statements about Theotokos. Here are two of the most striking ones:

We, too, know very well that Christ did not derive his deity from Mary; but it does not follow that it must, therefore, be false to say, “God was born of Mary” and “God is Mary’s Son” and “Mary is God’s mother.”

Mary is the true, natural mother of the child called Jesus Christ, and the true mother and bearer of God . . . Mary suckled God, rocked God, made broth and soup for God. For God and man are one Person, one Christ, one Son, one Jesus, not two persons . . . just as your son is not two sons . . . even though he has two natures, body and soul, — body from you, soul from God alone.
(On the Councils and the Church, 1539)

Mary Mother of God: Dialogue w Evangelical Protestant

 
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epostle

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The title "mother of God" or "Theotokos" resolved the Nestorian crisis, which taught falsehoods about the identity of Christ, the Trinity, and the Incarnation. Those were the stakes. The title "Christotokos" was rejected. The title "Mother of God" was about defending identity of Christ, the Trinity, and the Incarnation against a challenging heresy, and very little about honoring Mary. Any honest researcher can see this for themselves by reading the canons of the Council Of Ephesus, when the title was officially accepted in 431.

Word Count for the Above Link:
God: 145 times
Christ: 61 times
Jesus: 24 times
Mary: 5 times.
 
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epostle

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The authoritive proclamations of the Council of Ephesus concerning identity of Christ, the Trinity, and the Incarnation are accepted by Protestants, Orthodox and Catholics. This leaves anti-Catholics who have fits over the title "Mother of God" in a class by themselves.
 

Ezra

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no body denies this . the part of mary a queen asking mary to take our prayers to jesus your changing your defense
 

BreadOfLife

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it is you who speaks nearly verbatim from your Catholic books and give a REFERENCE to a Scripture that Does NOT claim what you have said.

I have given you precise QUOTES from Scripture, you can Believe THEM or NOT...

Your Belief, Your Words...Do NOT CHANGE Gods Word of Truth.

Do not get angry because people are Not choosing to Follow You or Acknowledge You as their "teacher". People IN Christ already Follow Him and have chosen Him to be their "Teacher"...regardless of How Endlessly and amusingly "YOU" YOU DICTATE YOU are the "educator".

LOL

Glory to God,
Taken
it is you who speaks nearly verbatim from your Catholic books and give a REFERENCE to a Scripture that Does NOT claim what you have said.

I have given you precise QUOTES from Scripture, you can Believe THEM or NOT...

Your Belief, Your Words...Do NOT CHANGE Gods Word of Truth.

Do not get angry because people are Not choosing to Follow You or Acknowledge You as their "teacher". People IN Christ already Follow Him and have chosen Him to be their "Teacher"...regardless of How Endlessly and amusingly "YOU" YOU DICTATE YOU are the "educator".

LOL

Glory to God,
Taken
Uh, no.

You've given us the KJV ENGLISH version of Luke 1:28.
I gave you the original GREEK text and meaning of what the angel said. The NT was written in GREEK, not ye Olde English . . .
You have YET to explain your way out of "Kecharitomeme".

Explain why Mary is the ONLY person in ALL of Scripture who was given this title.

Only THEN, can we have an intelligent conversation . . .
 
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BreadOfLife

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yes she had a physical and spiritual relationship . but she has no more spiritual authority than me or any other born again Christian . the issue at hand is saying she hears our prayers and takes them to Jesus. that is false teaching.. the Holy spirit intercedes on our behalf. why dont you lay a side the catholic teachings read the Bible for your self. see if what has been said is true cp nad bread of life and the others who think mary has a special place in the kingdom to help us. is nothing more than mockery
no body denies this . the part of mary a queen asking mary to take our prayers to jesus your changing your defense
The Kingdom of Heaven is modeled after the Davidic Kingdom (or vice versa). We can see this from the references to Isaiah 22:20-22 when Jesus appointed Peter as the bearer of the “keys to the kingdom” (Matt. 16:18-19).

In the Davidic Kingdom, the wife of the King was not the Queen – but rather, his mother was elevated to that station. The title “Gebirah” (Gebira), meaning “Great Lady” or “Queen Mother” was a royal title and an office which was bestowed upon the mothers of the Kings of Israel but only to those in the line of David.

Jesus Christ is the heir of David. He is the fulfillment of the covenant promises made to David in 2 Samuel 7:16; 23:5, and repeated to Mary in Luke 1:26-36. Mary’s son rules from the Kingdom of the heavenly Jerusalem. His mother enjoys the same role that other Davidic Queen mothers enjoyed, that is the royal office of the heavenly Gebirah.

1 Kings 2:19-20 tells us:
So Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him about Adonijah; the king got up to meet her and bowed before her; he then sat down on his throne; a seat was brought for the king’s mother, and she sat down on his right.
“There is one small favor I would ask of you,” she said. “Do not refuse me.” “Ask it, my mother,” the king said to her, “for I will not refuse you.”

Just as with the Davidic Kingdom, as Jesus is the King, Mary is the Queen Mother.

As for your position against intercession of the saints – Rev. 5:8 pretty much closes the door on your argument, It shows the Elders in heaven bringing our prayers before God and Rev. 8:3-4 speaks of the Angels in heaven doing the same thing.
 

Taken

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Noah built an ark made of wood to carry him and his family.

In the beginning when God Created the Earth, God was ON the Face of the Earth.

When the World became Corrupt, God HID Himself from the face of the Earth, and destroyed the Corruption.

An ARK, is a TYPE of "VESSEL", for allowing what is INSIDE the ARK, to be KEPT SECURE.

Noah, Chosen by God, built an ARK, It was covered in Pitch, to KEEP WATER OUT, and Noah and his family and particular Animals SECURE INSIDE...
WHILE the ARK was being RAISED "UP" above the FACE of the EARTH, and the Earth and it's inhabitants were being DESTROYED with WATER.

Moses built an Ark made of wood and gold to carry symbols of God's power.

Moses, chosen by God, built an ARK, It was covered in gold, and was to Carry the Testimony of God.

EX 25
[16] And thou shalt put into the ark the testimonywhich I shall give thee.

Mary was a Human Female, Faithful to God, WHO had a VIRGIN WOMB, (she having never been with a man).

Mary IS the Ark of the New Covenant (Rev. 11:19-12:1)

Rev 11:19 does NOT mention Mary or her Womb or the New Covenant.

Rev 11:19 mentions the Temple of God, the Ark of "Gods" Testament and...
Lightings, voices, thundering, an earthquake and great hail...
(NONE of which were mentioned on the night Jesus was born).

Rev 11
[19] And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 12:1
Does not mention Mary, Her Womb, or the New Covenant.

Rev 12:
[1] And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

The GREAT WONDER the Fullness of Christ's Church, (the Bride), clothed with the SON, and the crown of TWELVE is the TWELVE Tribes of ISRAEL.

that carried GOD Himself (Luke 1:43) -

No dispute, The Son of God was IN Mary's Virgin Womb, and came forth out of Mary's Womb. Her WOMB no longer has the Son of God in Her Womb. She is Bodily Dead, her bones rotting in her grave, WAITING to be resurrected in Glory.

Christ, who IS the New Covenant.

A Covenant IS an Agreement.
Jesus IS THE WAY for a man to participate in MAKING an AGREEMENT WITH JESUS.
An Agreement MADE, establishes a FOREVER Relationship BETWEEN the man AND Lord Jesus Christ...Jesus being the WORD of God, and Christ being the POWER of God...
AND THAT...is SEALED within A MANS "Vessel".....called the "HEART".

ONE more time:
Jesus is God.
Mary is His mother.
Ergo, Mary is the Mother of God - unless you deny that Jesus is God . . .

Jesus in the FLESH, had a LEGAL Mother, named Mary.
God IS Everlasting Spirit, without Beginning...and has NO Mother or Father.

Glory to God,
Taken
 
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BreadOfLife

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In the beginning when God Created the Earth, God was ON the Face of the Earth.

When the World became Corrupt, God HID Himself from the face of the Earth, and destroyed the Corruption.

An ARK, is a TYPE of "VESSEL", for allowing what is INSIDE the ARK, to be KEPT SECURE.

Noah, Chosen by God, built an ARK, It was covered in Pitch, to KEEP WATER OUT, and Noah and his family and particular Animals SECURE INSIDE...
WHILE the ARK was being RAISED "UP" above the FACE of the EARTH, and the Earth and it's inhabitants were being DESTROYED with WATER.

Moses, chosen by God, built an ARK, It was covered in gold, and was to Carry the Testimony of God.

EX 25
[16] And thou shalt put into the ark the testimonywhich I shall give thee.

Mary was a Human Female, Faithful to God, WHO had a VIRGIN WOMB, (she having never been with a man).

Rev 11:19 does NOT mention Mary or her Womb or the New Covenant.

Rev 11:19 mentions the Temple of God, the Ark of "Gods" Testament and...
Lightings, voices, thundering, an earthquake and great hail...
(NONE of which were mentioned on the night Jesus was born).

Rev 11
[19] And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 12:1
Does not mention Mary, Her Womb, or the New Covenant.

Rev 12:
[1] And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

The GREAT WONDER the Fullness of Christ's Church, (the Bride), clothed with the SON, and the crown of TWELVE is the TWELVE Tribes of ISRAEL.
No dispute, The Son of God was IN Mary's Virgin Womb, and came forth out of Mary's Womb. Her WOMB no longer has the Son of God in Her Womb. She is Bodily Dead, her bones rotting in her grave, WAITING to be resurrected in Glory.

A Covenant IS an Agreement.
Jesus IS THE WAY for a man to participate in MAKING an AGREEMENT WITH JESUS.
An Agreement MADE, establishes a FOREVER Relationship BETWEEN the man AND Lord Jesus Christ...Jesus being the WORD of God, and Christ being the POWER of God...
AND THAT...is SEALED within A MANS "Vessel".....called the "HEART".

Jesus in the FLESH, had a LEGAL Mother, named Mary.
God IS Everlasting Spirit, without Beginning...and has NO Mother or Father.

Glory to God,
Taken
And this is yet another one of your lies because you simply cannot refute Scripture.

John 2:1-3

On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. JESUS' MOTHER was there, and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. When the wine was gone, JESUS' MOTHER said to him, “They have no more wine.”

John 19:25

Near the cross of Jesus stood his MOTHER . . .

NOWHERE
does it mention Mary being a "step mother" or "surrogate" or "vessel", etc.
The Holy Spirit calls Mary His "MOTHER" . . .

Jesus is God.
Mary is His mother.
Ergo, Mary is the Mother of God - unless you deny that Jesus is God . . .
 

Taken

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Can you show me where the Bible says that Mary was born in sin??


"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us . . . Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
Romans 5:8, 12, KJV


I showed you where it says just the opposite - that she was Kecharitomene.
Chapter and verse, please . . .

No, Scripture does not say Mary was "Naturally" Born WITHOUT SIN.

Scripture clearly says:
Luke 1:35
[35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

"IF" Mary was already "sinless" as you claim..
Mary would HAVE already HAD the "HOLY Spirit"...

Clearly, the Angel notified Mary, the "Holy Ghost" ... SHALL...come upon her.

Clearly, Mary received the INDWELLING Holy Spirit, on Pentacost, along with OTHER believers, AFTER JESUS left the Earth...JUST as Jesus Foretold.


Can you also show me where the Bible says that anybody else gave birth to God??


Can you quote ONE Scripture that says Mary "GAVE BIRTH TO GOD" ?

You seem to be under the false impression that her role in Christendom was "just like everybody else".

Clearly you failed in either READING or COMPREHENDING what I have written.

I have already said, Mary's "ROLE" was "ONLY" unto her.

Chapter and verse, please . . .

Chapter and verse of what? Something I already said and you attempted to "say the opposite FOR ME?" I am not responsible for what YOU say.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

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BOL is doing a great job.
There is no need for lots of other Catholics to comment.

As well I see you noticed lots of other Catholics are not following him.

Apparently you are following him?
I choose to follow Christ the Lord Jesus.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

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Do you need God to say what you , yourself have shown here is self-evident?

Already acknowledged The Word of God entered Mary's Womb and the Word of God came forth from Mary's Womb.

[QUOTE} Mary is Jesus' mother. Jesus is God.
[/QUOTE]

Mary WAS Jesus' Mother. Once you learned Jesus is God, you should have ALSO Learned; God IS without beginning and has NO mother or father.

Do you prefer the ancient Greek term Theotokos (God-bearer)?

Do you prefer elementary knowledge or advanced understanding?

Jesus is also a man, and thus does indeed have a 'mommy' (or whatever the Aramaic equivalent was in 1AD)

Jesus was revealed SO He could be SEEN BY Human men with Human eyes...
WHY?
Because men who used their EARS to hear the Word of God...couldn't BELIEVE, by only Hearing and without SEEING "God".
God...called them Stiffnecked, but then promised He would send men a Messiah.

Thus God prepared Jesus a body, FOR WHEN he came into the world. Yes he appeared in the LIKENESS of men, was called a man, and took upon himself the seed of Abraham, thus was the son of Abraham. (Did that make "Sarah" his mommy?)

Heb 2
[16] For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

I don't understand why some have an issue with this. Does acknowledging Mary's unique relationship with her son change who Jesus is in any way whatsoever?

I have no issue with saying Mary was the Mother of Jesus.
I already know it was NOT a Natural Conception.
I already know it was a Spiritual event when the Lord came down from Heaven and entered her Womb, and was born in the same fashion Humans are born.
I already know according to mans Civil Laws, Jesus was Legally Mary's Son, and Per Jewish Law, ONLY A Jew CAN SIT ON DAVID'S THRONE.
Scripture clearly informs us Jesus came to "FULFILL" the Law...
Surely you are aware He fulfilled many Laws, including; Coming as the ONLY Begotten Son of God, ENTITLED to the Kingship of His Kingdom and Jerusalem the SEAT of His government...."AND" a LEGAL HEIR to the Everlasting Throne of King David.

Mary, "Mother of God", defies Scripture.
God is without beginning, without mother or father.

A great difference between Carnal Understanding and Spiritual Understanding.

Even the Disciples who first knew Jesus "as a man"....thereafter Knew Him "in Spirit"...and no more "as a man".
1 Cor 5:16

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

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Uh, no.

You've given us the KJV ENGLISH version of Luke 1:28.
I gave you the original GREEK text and meaning of what the angel said. The NT was written in GREEK, not ye Olde English . . .
You have YET to explain your way out of "Kecharitomeme".

Explain why Mary is the ONLY person in ALL of Scripture who was given this title.

First of all, YOU are the one saying "kecharitomeme" is a Title.

King is a Title, and used repeatedly in Scripture;
King + Name.

Lord is a Title, and used repeatedly in Scripture;
Lord + Name.

Show Mary being addressed repeatedly with that Title + Mary.

How many times must you have it explained?
That it was a ONE TIME EVENT for the Lord to be revealed on EARTH, in the same fashion that Earthly men are revealed on Earth?
That the Word of God came forth out from God, sent to Mary's Womb, was revealed coming forth out from Mary's Womb and was to be called the Son of God, the Son of the Highest, JESUS.

Is Mary God?
Is Mary the Highest?

Glory to God,
Taken
 
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Mungo

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Mary (WAS NOT) The Word of God's Mother BEFORE He came to Earth.

Correct.
Mary (WAS Jesus' Earthly Mother) While He was ON the Earth.

And Jesus was and is God
Therefore Mary was and is the Mother of God.

Mary (IS NOT) Jesus' Mother IN Heaven.

Incorrect. Mary did not stop being Jesus' mother when he ascended to heaven.



God HAS NO MOTHER.

Mary is the mother of Jesus who is God.

Someone on another forum put very well:
As "Mother of God" signifies a relationship it is not unacceptable to say Mary became the Mother of God as all human women become a mother of a man, through pregnancy. Thus the Motherhood of Mary was assumed through the incarnation, it was not eternal as the Son was and is. Mary became the Mother of God at the incarnation and will be eternally onwards. For the relationship of a Mother and Son can be made but it can never be unmade.
 
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Mungo

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A great difference between Carnal Understanding and Spiritual Understanding.
Glory to God,
Taken

Ah! The"carnal" argument. Usually trotted out by Protestants when they lose the argument.
 

Mungo

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Clearly, Mary received the INDWELLING Holy Spirit, on Pentacost, along with OTHER believers, AFTER JESUS left the Earth...JUST as Jesus Foretold.

Not clear at all.

Pentecost was not about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit but receiving the Holy Spirit for action. Being "clothed with power" as Luke put it (Lk 24:49)