Y do U believe what U believe, and do U have good reasons 4 those beliefs? - let's find out.

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ScottA

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You have a present misunderstanding of 1 Corinthians 15:50, and in doing so, alters your entire belief.

1Co_15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

The previous context states:

1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Thus read 1 Corinthians 15:35-44 just prior, in its speaking of the celestial bodies, and the glory thereof. The verse of 1 Corinthians 15:49 is parallel to itself, and defines itself, for when Paul states "flesh and blood" it is paralleled by "corruption" in the same sentence. Paul is saying the fallen flesh cannot inherit. He is not saying immortalized glorified flesh (as Jesus, Moses, Elijah, Enoch, the Firstfruits have) cannot. Notice:

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

He is speaking of the flesh itself in the power of the resurrection. Just as Jesus is resurrected so too those who died in Him, and those who live will be transformed in a moment, and translated, and be as the angels, who have celestial bodies of flesh (immortal).
Okay, I see now where you error.

You are considering that there is an "incorruptible" "glorified" flesh or physical body. But the idea of a "glorified" body is is not what is meant by "incorruptible." Paul refers to what is imperfect, putting on what is perfect. "God is perfect"...and that is your (and most of Christendom's) error.

Nonetheless, that is not what it says, that is your interpretation...and it is wrong, it does not agree with the rest of scripture. Nowhere do the scriptures tell of the flesh being "glorified." They tell of God being spirit and perfect, and us becoming like Him.
 
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CharismaticLady

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@ReChoired
Welcome to the forum!

@CharismaticLady I trimmed your post to leave only the part which applied to me precisely.

One thing I learned a long time ago, is that no matter how certain I am on a thing, I may still be wrong on it although sometimes only partly wrong. Like @Helen I hold to a number of things only 'lightly'. Lightly because as I continue to commune with God and read the scriptures, I might be unwilling to let go of something I need to let go of...

Give God the glory!

The Scriptures are very clear on what Jesus came to do - to free us from sin. The false teachings out there are that we as Christians will "always sin" and we will "always be in the flesh" and "if we say we have no sin we are liars" are doctrines of demons. I believe the opposite of these lies. That is not something I have to hold lightly.
 
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CharismaticLady

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Is the person who left you, now divorced from you? If so, since that person committed adultery, and is divorced, you are free to marry whom you will, only in the Lord. If you are not divorced, you are hoping for the return of this person to the marriage? If not, you are binding yourself and Acts 15 has nothing to say about that, only speaks to 'fornication'. You can choose to remain single, but that is your choice, for there is no scripture binding you to that position.

Only if my husband was an unbeliever am I not bound to him. But he is a Christian - a carnal Christian for sure, but still a Christian. He did not have cause to divorce me as I did not sin against God.

10 Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband. 11 But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife.

Seeing as he had no cause to divorce me we are not divorced. He is living in perpetual adultery. I am remaining unmarried.
 

CharismaticLady

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Have you seen "Dominion"?

Trailer:


Full (warning, not for the faint of heart, mentally weak):


Acts 15 (citing, OT) is not the end-all, be-all of the instruction, but merely a summary, and quick-list for 'newbs' in the faith, and there is a lot more to be learned in regards God's instruction on diet. Acts 15:21,18-19 shows that the repentant Gentiles would learn more from the word of God when they studied with the church.

I don't think I dare watch that as I have a super-sensitive heart for animals.
 

ReChoired

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So..now you are telling us what is right and what is wrong? o_O
That is your view and opinion...and you are very welcome to it!!
I have cited scripture, which is the basis, not myself. This is another 'belief' that needs to be continually addressed also. I am not the authority. Scripture (the word of God) is the authority as I have cited previously in this thread.

You do not have to believe me, yet you ought believe what scripture stated most plainly in regards the "body" and the "resurrection" thereof. You will of course say that you do believe the scripture, and yet the definition you carry is not how scripture defined itself, but rather how you defined it, and that is what this thread is about.
 

ReChoired

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Willfully sinning against the moral laws of God, like adultery, etc.
When you say "moral laws" what do you specifically refer to? Is there a place in scripture that I can read specifically about such "moral laws"? Are you referring to the "morals laws" that Paul references in Romans 7:7, the Ten Commandments, being "spiritual" laws (Romans 7:14)?
 

CharismaticLady

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When you say "moral laws" what do you specifically refer to? Is there a place in scripture that I can read specifically about such "moral laws"? Are you referring to the "morals laws" that Paul references in Romans 7:7, the Ten Commandments, being "spiritual" laws (Romans 7:14)?

If you break the last six of the ten commandments you are breaking loving your neighbor as yourself, the royal law. The Church has adopted the phrase "moral law."

James 2:8
1 John 3:21-24
 

ReChoired

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No...you have not reconciled even the verses I gave, but have denied them and stated more passages that you also cannot and have not reconciled. And you are speaking out of both sides of you mouth.

"God is spirit", and He is spiritual: same, same. Jesus' words are spirit and spiritual; and He did not commit any "physical" body to the Father, but only His spirit. All of which, unlike what you have gone on about, agrees with the rest of scripture, such as "Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7

But don't be surprised that your own "physical" self has you thinking according to the flesh, for "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:6
The words "spirit" and "spiritual" are not the same definitionally.

Ecclesiastes 12:7, demonstrates how mankind is undone, or returned to that which was before and is the reversal parallel to Genesis 2:7

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

[1] dust of the earth
+
[2] breath of life of God
=
[3] living soul/creature/being

In removing the breath of life of God, which is His, not ours, we return to dust. Otherwise, what you have in that verse, is what the occultist would teach, in that all return to God in Heaven, even Hitler, etc. Scripture doesn't teach that. The 'spirit' is simply the breath of the life of God. Notice:

Gen_3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Mankind returns to the dust, not to Heaven, in death. That's the whole reason for the resurrection. The case of Moses is a great example of this process. The cases of the firstfruits are another example. They were in their graves, returned unto dust, and in their resurrection, they received glorified bodies and appeared to many in that glory, and then went to Heaven with Jesus in His own ascension.

John 4:24, says:

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

God is the Father of "spirits", which are Persons/Beings:

Heb_12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Angels are "ministering spirits", yet that does not make them intangible, non-corporeal beings, nor aethereal. It means they are creatures of intellect, having a mind/heart who with it serve with the bodies, their hands, feet, mouth, etc.

Gen_18:4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
Gen 19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
Gen_19:2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.

For instance the Person/Being of the Father is not a perfume pervading the universe (that's pantheism, and even later panentheism):

Mat_6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name
.
Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Luk_11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

He, the Father, is a "Person", even His person (Job 13:8; Hebrews 1:3), of which Jesus (the Son) is the "express image" of.

As for the rest, see "His person" (Job 13:8); "form of God" (Philippians 2:6), "shape" (John 5:37), "image" (Genesis 1:26,27; Hebrews 1:3), "likeness" (Genesis 1:26,27), "being" (Acts 17:28), has a very real movable "Throne" on which He sits (Daniel 7:9-10; Revelation 4-5, &c), has "the hair of his head like the pure wool" (Daniel 7:9), "whose garment was white as snow" (Daniel 7:9), has a "right hand" (Revelation 5:1; Acts 7:55-56), able to be looked upon, "to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone" (Revelation 4:2), having His own "nature" (Galatians 4:8).

See also "back parts" (Exodus 33:23), and even a "divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4), see also "under his feet" (Exodus 24:20).

The angels are also called 'spirits' and "persons" ("fellows"; Hebrews 1:9), "young man" (Mark 16:5; Daniel 9:21; &c), and yet have real celestial (Heavenly) "bodies" with unfallen angelic "flesh" (1 Corinthians 15:35-58; Jude 1:7, Genesis 17-19, &c) an unfallen heavenly "nature" (Hebrews 2:16), where as we have bodies terrestrial (dust).

The Son is also a "person" (Hebrews 1:3; 2 Corinthians 2:10; Matthew 27:24; Deuteronomy 27:25; &c).

So is the Holy Ghost (John 14:16; &c)

Mankind are also called 'spirits' (1 Peter 3:19; Hebrews 12:23) and yet are real tangible beings, with bodies (made of dust).

Philippians 2:6; Daniel 3:25; Genesis 18:4, 19:2; Exodus 24:10-11; Psalms 18:9; John 5:37; Exodus 33:23,20,22; Daniel 7:9-10,13; Ezekiel 1:1,8,26-28; Acts 7:55-56; Psalms 24:1-10; John 20:17; 1 Peter 3:22; Matthew 18:10; Revelation 1:13-20, 2:1, 4:1-11, 5:1-14; Hebrews 1:13; Colossians 1:3-6; Numbers 12:8; Isaiah 45:23, 48:3; Revelation 3:16; Psalms 89:34; Psalms 104:33, 146:2; Acts 17:28; Genesis 1:26-27; Colossians 1:15; &c.
 
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ReChoired

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If you break the last six of the ten commandments you are breaking loving your neighbor as yourself ...
I agree, for Jesus, Paul and James are citing that from Leviticus 19:17-18. What of the first table, commandments 1-4? Are they also not all "moral", even "spiritual" as Paul says, since it is a "whole" law (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14), being "ten" (Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13, 10:4)?

, the royal law.
The Royal Law, which James refers to is the law of God, for King-Priests, for when James cites "royal law", he refers to Leviticus 19:17-18, which is in the context of the Ten Commandments, which deals with "sin" (1 John 3:4).

The Church has adopted the phrase "moral law."

James 2:8
1 John 3:21-24
I understand, but do you consider all Ten Commandments, Table 1 (1-4) and Table 2 (5-10), as the "moral law" being the "spiritual" law Paul refers to, and the "royal law" that James refers to?
 

ReChoired

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...what is right and what is wrong? ...
If you will allow me to ask you, do you believe that there is 'right' and 'wrong', in general, and theologically, doctrinally, for instance:

1Co_11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Gal_5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

2Pe_2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
 

CharismaticLady

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I agree, for Jesus, Paul and James are citing that from Leviticus 19:17-18. What of the first table, commandments 1-4? Are they also not all "moral", even "spiritual" as Paul says, since it is a "whole" law (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14), being "ten" (Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13, 10:4)?

The Royal Law, which James refers to is the law of God, for King-Priests, for when James cites "royal law", he refers to Leviticus 19:17-18, which is in the context of the Ten Commandments, which deals with "sin" (1 John 3:4).

I understand, but do you consider all Ten Commandments, Table 1 (1-4) and Table 2 (5-10), as the "moral law" being the "spiritual" law Paul refers to, and the "royal law" that James refers to?

The first four are not loving your neighbor as yourself, but have to do with God. 1 John 3:23 covers all ten.
 

ReChoired

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The first four are not loving your neighbor as yourself, but have to do with God. 1 John 3:23 covers all ten.
So if I transgress the first 4 of the Ten Commandments, I have not loved God, and if I have transgressed the last 6 of the Ten Commandments, I have not loved God nor fellow mankind. Do I understand you correctly?
 

CharismaticLady

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So if I transgress the first 4 of the Ten Commandments, I have not loved God, and if I have transgressed the last 6 of the Ten Commandments, I have not loved God nor fellow mankind. Do I understand you correctly?

You must abide in Jesus meaning you obey His teachings, and if you have Jesus you have the Father. That covers the first 4 of the old Ten Commandments of the Old Covenant that are fulfilled in Christ. And as I said, the last 6 are covered by the royal law of loving your neighbor as yourself. 1 John 3:23 are the commandments of Jesus and the New Covenant.
 

ReChoired

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You must abide in Jesus meaning you obey His teachings, and if you have Jesus you have the Father. That covers the first 4 of the old Ten Commandments of the Old Covenant that are fulfilled in Christ. And as I said, the last 6 are covered by the royal law of loving your neighbor as yourself. 1 John 3:23 are the commandments of Jesus and the New Covenant.
Wait, are you saying that the Ten Commandments don't mean anything in the New Covenant? I keep asking you about those specifically, and you keep redirecting. Love God - Deuteronomy 6:5 and Love neighbour - Leviticus 19:17-18, in the context of the Ten Commandments, yes?

So, are you saying that Jesus is not teaching us to keep the Ten Commandments in the New Covenant?
 

CharismaticLady

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Wait, are you saying that the Ten Commandments don't mean anything in the New Covenant? I keep asking you about those specifically, and you keep redirecting. Love God - Deuteronomy 6:5 and Love neighbour - Leviticus 19:17-18, in the context of the Ten Commandments, yes?

So, are you saying that Jesus is not teaching us to keep the Ten Commandments in the New Covenant?

Step by step:

What was the purpose of the Ten Commandments?
 

Helen

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If you will allow me to ask you, do you believe that there is 'right' and 'wrong', in general, and theologically, doctrinally, for instance:

God Himself is Truth. I believe He is always and firstly interested in LIFE.
Right and wrong is not the issue. The Tree was of "Good & Evil" but the same tree...so eating what is perceived as 'good' from that tree was not TRUTH as God sees it.

Right and wrong is never the issue, never has been.
In any 'argument' right and wrong does not equal Life and Relationship.
God is all about Life and a Relationship with Him.

I am disappointed somewhat...
...you started this thread asking us to share what we believe...
...you didn't add that after we had shared what we believe, you would then proceed to show us why we shouldn't believe what we believe.

Which unspokenly is saying that you have the answers ..therefore you must have interpreted the scriptures correctly, but we have not.
 

Helen

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I have cited scripture, which is the basis, not myself. This is another 'belief' that needs to be continually addressed also. I am not the authority. Scripture (the word of God) is the authority as I have cited previously in this thread.


This argument is as old as Noah's ark. :rolleyes:

I agree, scripture is the Word of God ..the authority ...where this silly argument breaks down is that people spout this, but what they are really saying is -
' My interpretation of the scriptures is 100% correct. '
 
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