The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[Taken]

That was the main point that @epostle was making.
The Real Presence was a side issue from that topic.

So - do you believe that Jesus Christ was a human being as well as God - or that He was just spirit?

"Just a spirit" ?

Sounds so insignificant...
Jesus is the Word of God.
Jesus is the Christ, and the Christ IS the POWER of God.
Jesus is the Christ, and Christ IS the WISDOM of God.

Jesus IS Spirit...and was NEVER a "HUMAN".

Are you completely unaware of the Power of spirits to APPEAR in a Fashion AS THEY please.....to the eyes of Human men?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[reformed1689]

For starters:
The Greek Grammar of the New Testament, Blass and DeBrunner
Kecharitomene (Lk. 1:28) in the Light of Gen. 18:16-33: A Matter of Quantity, François Rossier, University of Dayton

Any others? I've consulted quite a few including BDAG and Lou-Nida and none of them have anything close to your definition.

Once again - this is PURE anti-Catholic OPINION. You haven't provided ANY evidence.
Besides - there is NO such entity as "The Roman Catholic Church". There is "The Catholic Church" which has Roman Catholics and Melkite Catholics and Byzantine Catholics, etc,

The evidence is that the Bible doesn't say Mary was sinless but the Roman Catholic Church does. And you can say there is not such thing was the RCC but we need to distinguish it from the true church of Christ.

YOU'RE the only one claiming that the Church says its teachings are "above" Scripture,
The Church doesn't teach this.

No. Not true. When the church claims it has the final authority it says it is above Scripture.

Married couples become ONE in God's eyes. EVERYTHING about them is ONE - just like Christ and His Church.

No everything about them is not one. That is asinine.

 

[Taken]

WRONG.
I have given you the following definition several times now:

Kecharitomene is a perfect participle that indicates a COMPLETED action with a PERMANENT result.
It translates as: COMPLETELY, PERFECTLY and ENDURINGLY endowed with grace.

So? Not a secret Mary was being informed of a very significant thing the Lord had chosen Her to do.

Only those in Heaven have this kind of endowed grace - and ONLY Mary is given this description in ALL of Scripture.

Only those in HEAVEN have been given a great measure of Gods Grace?
Only Mary was given a highly important role to fulfill?

And Serously, ONLY those IN Heaven have "that KIND of endowed grace"?

1) Mary was NOT In Heaven!

(You just made your point irrelevant).

2) Mary was ON Earth, in her little village, and an Angel appeared to her and gave her notice of Gods Grace and the Task she would participate in as service unto God.

3) And IF ONLY "THOSE" in Heaven, fit the description of FULL OF GRACE....then Mary isn't the ONLY one...is she?

(You just made your point irrelevant).

And where IN Scripture does it teach...THOSE IN Gods "FULL" Grace, are Naturally Born Sinless ?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[reformed1689]

So? Not a secret Mary was being informed of a very significant thing the Lord had chosen Her to do.



Only those in HEAVEN have been given a great measure of Gods Grace?
Only Mary was given a highly important role to fulfill?

And Serously, ONLY those IN Heaven have "that KIND of endowed grace"?

1) Mary was NOT In Heaven!

(You just made your point irrelevant).

2) Mary was ON Earth, in her little village, and an Angel appeared to her and gave her notice of Gods Grace and the Task she would participate in as service unto God.

3) And IF ONLY "THOSE" in Heaven, fit the description of FULL OF GRACE....then Mary isn't the ONLY one...is she?

(You just made your point irrelevant).

And where IN Scripture does it teach...THOSE IN Gods "FULL" Grace, are Naturally Born Sinless ?

Glory to God,
Taken

Catholics can't see the idiocy of their doctrines.

 

[Taken]

Any others? I've consulted quite a few including BDAG and Lou-Nida and none of them have anything close to your definition.

The evidence is that the Bible doesn't say Mary was sinless but the Roman Catholic Church does. And you can say there is not such thing was the RCC but we need to distinguish it from the true church of Christ.

No. Not true. When the church claims it has the final authority it says it is above Scripture.

No everything about them is not one. That is asinine.

See...if you disagree, out comes the name calling....(that is an old trick, that is supposed to make you look unworthy to be considered to be correct)...but what does not appear is a Scriptural verification for their claims.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[reformed1689]

See...if you disagree, out comes the name calling....(that is an old trick, that is supposed to make you look unworthy to be considered to be correct)...but what does not appear is a Scriptural verification for their claims.

Glory to God,
Taken

Don't forget the obnoxious use of bold and ALLCAPS since I obviously can't read the text itself.....

 

[BreadOfLife]

Jesus is fully God and fully human. What he is not is bread to be eaten.

Actually - He Himself said that He is "the "BREAD of Life (John 6:35) - and whoever eats his Flesh and drinks His Blood has ETERNAL LIFE - and He will raise them on the last day (John 6:504).

Not sure why you would doubt what the Lord said - bit it's your choice . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

LOL... I notice you Are regularly confused with the difference between me being thorough and your favorite of repeating the Reader's Digest condensed version of your Belief.

No - you just ramble on senselessly.
A thinking person wisely chooses what to say and gets to their point in a concise manner - especially on a discussion forum.

Apparently you are UNAWARE, Jesus IS God, God is Spirit, HUMAN MEN cannot SEE God, unless "HE APPEARS" in a "FASHION" Human men CAN SEE! His APPEARENCE in FLESH, In the LIKENESS AS a Human man, didn't CHANGE God...and Certainly didn't MAKE Him "A Created HUMAN"...Jesus took UPON Himself...the BODY God prepared for Him...FOR WHEN He came INTO THE WORLD. .Hisself Didn't Change...Hisself WAS and IS STILL the FORM (body) of God, that No human man has SEE!

Why do you Keep calling Jesus A HUMAN man?
Why do you NOT know Human men came from the Dust of the Earth and return to the Earth?
Why do you NOT know Jesus Came out from God in Heaven and down to Earth and RETURNED to God IN Heaven?

Really, YOUR God "IS" a created Human man?
That is probably the most Absurd teaching, the "modern" Catholics came up with.

So? You write one thing..."AS A HUMAN"...
then YOU Teach and Preach...."IS" A Human..

You are in conflict with yourself.

Glory to God,
Taken

Again with the "IS and the "AS".
You just like playing semantic games with the text.

The Biblical truth is that Jesus is FULLY Human and FULLY God. He doesn't need YOU to believe that for it to be true.
It's true in spite of your heretical beliefs . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Any others? I've consulted quite a few including BDAG and Lou-Nida and none of them have anything close to your definition.

The sources I gave you were NOT Catholic. Explain why these scholars choose to define "Kecharitomene" in this way - WITHOUT having a pro-Catholic bias if it were not true.

The evidence is that the Bible doesn't say Mary was sinless but the Roman Catholic Church does. And you can say there is not such thing was the RCC but we need to distinguish it from the true church of Christ.

And as I educated you several times now - there is no such entity as "The Roman Catholic Church" - so your point is moot . . .

No. Not true. When the church claims it has the final authority it says it is above Scripture.

Once again - you fail to understand WHAT Christ's Church IS.
Allow me to educate you . . .
- The Church is the Body of Christ and He is the Head (1 Cor. 12:12-31, Eph. 4:3-6, Col. 1:8).
- Jesus is Truth itself (John 14:6).
- Jesus promised His Church that the Holy Spirit would guide her to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15).
- The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
- The Church is the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).
- Jesus identifies His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).

The Church is NOT a disjointed and perpetually-splintering gaggle of tens of thousands of sects that ALL teach different doctrines while ALL claiming to have been "led" by the Holy Spirit.
Christ's Church is ONE - as He and the Father are ONE - and He is ONE with His Church (Acts 9:4-5, Col. 1:18, 1 Cor. 12).
The Church CAN'T be "above" the Scriptues - because the Scriptures THEMSELVES equate Christ with His Church . . .

No everything about them is not one. That is asinine.

No - what's "asinine" is YOUR refusal to understand Scripture.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Catholics can't see the idiocy of their doctrines.

No - it's just that we demand PROOF to the contrary if you expect us to believe something else.
So far - you've failed . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

And Serously, ONLY those IN Heaven have "that KIND of endowed grace"?
1) Mary was NOT In Heaven!
(You just made your point irrelevant).

2) Mary was ON Earth, in her little village, and an Angel appeared to her and gave her notice of Gods Grace and the Task she would participate in as service unto God.

3) And IF ONLY "THOSE" in Heaven, fit the description of FULL OF GRACE....then Mary isn't the ONLY one...is she?

(You just made your point irrelevant).

And where IN Scripture does it teach...THOSE IN Gods "FULL" Grace, are Naturally Born Sinless ?

Glory to God,
Taken

Pay attention.

For about the twentieth time - Kecharitomenes translates as: COMPLETELY, PERFECTLY and ENDURINGLY endowed with grace.
She had ALREADY been COMPLETELY endowed with grace before the Angel got there.

YOU are not COMPLETELY endowed with grace.
I am not COMPLETELY endowed with grace.
NOBODY is COMPLETELY endowed with grace - because we're STILL being worked on. We will continue to receive the grace of sanctification until we die.

Now - here's where it gets better, so pay attention:
Kecharitomene is a perfect participle that indicates a COMPLETED action with a PERMANENT result.
Mary's grace was not only completely endowed - but iot was a PERMANENT situation.

ONLY those in Heaven have been COMPLETE;Y, PERFECTLY ane ENDURINGLY endowed with grace PERMANENTLY.

 

[reformed1689]

No - it's just that we demand PROOF to the contrary if you expect us to believe something else.
So far - you've failed . . .

This is not true. You won't accept anything that doesn't come from the Catholic Church.

 

[Nondenom40]

Actually - He Himself said that He is "the "BREAD of Life (John 6:35) - and whoever eats his Flesh and drinks His Blood has ETERNAL LIFE - and He will raise them on the last day (John 6:504).

Not sure why you would doubt what the Lord said - bit it's your choice . . .

Bread of life. Not a loaf of bread. Or a wafer. And since when is there 504 verses in John 6? How about read the first 50 verses then get back to me.

Jesus also said to gouge out your eye or cut off your hand. Why do you doubt what the Lord said?

 

[reformed1689]

The sources I gave you were NOT Catholic. Explain why these scholars choose to define "Kecharitomene" in this way - WITHOUT having a pro-Catholic bias if it were not true.

I've looked at many lexicons and none of them define it the way you do.

And as I educated you several times now - there is no such entity as "The Roman Catholic Church" - so your point is moot . . .

No, my point is not moot, you just don't want to deal with it and you are just annoyed that I call it the RCC to distinguish it from the catholic church.

The Church CAN'T be "above" the Scriptues - because the Scriptures THEMSELVES equate Christ with His Church . . .

No it doesn't. Nothing you have shown actually does that.

 

[Taken]

Actually - this is a LIE.

The Greek word describing Mary used in Luke 1:28 is "Kecharitomene".
The NT was written in GREEK - not English. I haven't been "beating around the bush". I'm stating categorically that this is what the Word of GOD says - and YOU have not been able to address it . . .

LOL ~ That is a Lie!

Kecharitomene;
Full of Grace

So? That has been addressed. No one disagreed that Mary was full of grace.

Then you "attempt" to DEFINE "Full of Grace", by claiming it means: Naturally Born Sinless.

That is a Lie; and would make Scripture a lie.

Then you "attempt" to paraphrase Kecharitomene, to enforce, the "past tense" meaning of Kecharitomene;
As Completly full of grace.
As Perfectly full of grace.
As Enduringly full of grace.
As Endowed fully with grace.

So? No one has disagreed that Mary "WAS" given Gods "FULL" Gift of Grace BY God, and it was a Complete, Perfect, Endowed Gift from God Given By God Enduringly TO Mary.

Your teaching, IS dictating, "when" Mary Received, this Full Gift of Grace From God, as you claim it was at the time of "Mary's own natural birth".

Where IS your Scriptural Verification, of "when" Mary received this Full Gift of Grace From God?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Don't forget the obnoxious use of bold and ALLCAPS since I obviously can't read the text itself.....

I also use Caps and bold type.
My intent is to stress a point I am making.
Often I use Caps, as it is easier, since all of my responses are from my phone, without the ease of a computer.

BOL uses Caps and bold particularly often to stress his namecalling, cutting down and hissy fits when people do not agree with him.
If he emphasizes in bold writing "wrong" repeatedly, it is supposed to have a "brainwashing" effect on the readers, that they might believe "he is right".

It is a "method" way of teaching.
A policy, course, programs, procedure...
The "leaders" of the Catholic church decide what is "their" truth...
Then from a very young age begin the child in the courses and programs, whereby the "leaders" truth is dictated, read, repeated, until 'the student' can repeat, repeat, repeat what has been dictated to them, as the Catholics truth.

And when "their truth" is challenged: they can not Scripturally point to passages that verify what they believe.

Thus goes the "their" defense, of cutting down the challenger, diverting to other topics or ignoring the challenge.

BOL carries on and on, about the number of different Protestant denominations and How unified the Catholic churches are.

I have spoken to Many, who claimed to "BE" Catholic, who have Many different understandings of what they believe and why.
And ... their "different" beliefs always hinge on whether or not...they participated in the "program"...ie having participated in a Catechism...and been 'taught' and "programmed" when they learn the Catechism, and can repeat it, and believe it...they are "RIGHT", and everyone else who disagrees is "WRONG"...

It's a clever method of "brainwashing", via, Quoting a Scripture, then "defining" what the scripture means.

Defies Scripture itself.
Jesus taught, the Lord God gives men the Understanding of Scripture.

Catholics teach, Catholics gives people the Understanding of Scripture.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

No - you just ramble on senselessly.
A thinking person wisely chooses what to say and gets to their point in a concise manner - especially on a discussion forum.

A Concise manner is quite acceptable, but useless, when:
The post is directed TO a person who does not comprehend simple words, or display comprehension of Historical Facts.

Again with the "IS and the "AS".
You just like playing semantic games with the text.

Awe...your deflection is noted.

Don't forget, the word "LIKENESS"!!

God did not "create" little human men gods.
God created "the first man kind of thing" in the LIKENESS of God. Read the Scriptural Truth.

Gen 1:
[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

You should have discovered Gods LIKENESS, is His Absolute Truth, (without conflict of thought or belief).

You should have discovered, the first man, Deflected from Gods LIKENESS, Gods Absolute Truth, (and had Conflict of belief, contrary to God).

You should have discovered, LIKENESS, is a similarity. A man can "BECOME" LIKE God, while NOT Becoming God Himself.

You should have discovered, God can "APPEAR" in the "LIKENESS" as a "human" man, while NOT Becoming a "human" man.

When you exhibit your LACK of elementary understanding of what words mean...I treat you like a student with elementary understanding and write you in explicit elementary detailed posts.

You SWING a one way door, preaching God has BECOME and IS a HUMAN....but hold your tongue to claim man Becomes God.

You being a "cradle Catholic", you were likely taught from a young age, that God BECAME a "human" man....and obviously Never bothered to take it upon yourself to READ Gods Truth, instead of your Catholic church's "truth".

Mal 3
[6] For I am the LORD, I change not;

The Biblical truth is that Jesus is FULLY Human and FULLY God. He doesn't need YOU to believe that for it to be true.
It's true in spite of your heretical beliefs . . .

Repeating your Catholic taught truth over and over, does not supercede the REAL TRUTH, Gods Truth...

Mal 3
[6] For I am the LORD, I change not;

You can repeat, repeat, repeat over and over and over your Catholic Doctrine.... However, your words will fade away, and Gods Word will stand forever.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[reformed1689]

BOL carries on and on, about the number of different Protestant denominations and How unified the Catholic churches are.

Lol but then goes off about liturgical rites when I call it the RCC.

 

[Nondenom40]

Lol but then goes off about liturgical rites when I call it the RCC.

And lets not forget that the word 'roman' is used over 30 times in their own catechism. Pot meet kettle.

 

[Nondenom40]

LOL ~ That is a Lie!

Kecharitomene;
Full of Grace

So? That has been addressed. No one disagreed that Mary was full of grace.

Then you "attempt" to DEFINE "Full of Grace", by claiming it means: Naturally Born Sinless.

That is a Lie; and would make Scripture a lie.

Then you "attempt" to paraphrase Kecharitomene, to enforce, the "past tense" meaning of Kecharitomene;
As Completly full of grace.
As Perfectly full of grace.
As Enduringly full of grace.
As Endowed fully with grace.

So? No one has disagreed that Mary "WAS" given Gods "FULL" Gift of Grace BY God, and it was a Complete, Perfect, Endowed Gift from God Given By God Enduringly TO Mary.

Your teaching, IS dictating, "when" Mary Received, this Full Gift of Grace From God, as you claim it was at the time of "Mary's own natural birth".

Where IS your Scriptural Verification, of "when" Mary received this Full Gift of Grace From God?

Glory to God,
Taken

To compliment what you've said.

Kecharitomene doesn't mean full of grace;

Highly favoured (κεχαριτωμενη). Perfect passive participle of χαριτοω and means endowed with grace (χαρις), enriched with grace as in Eph 1:6, non ut mater gratiae, sed ut filia gratiae (Bengel). The Vulgate gratiae plena "is right, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast received'; wrong, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast to bestow"' (Plummer). The oldest MSS. do not have "Blessed art thou among women" here, but in verse 42.

Robertson's Word Pictures

I have yet to see a reputable lexicon that defines charitoo as 'full of grace.' And even if it did it still doesn't mean sinless.

Also 2 Cor 9:8 says that we christians have all grace...

2 Cor 9:8
8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed;
NASB

So catholics can argue (unsuccessfully) that mary is full of grace but we have all grace.