Interpreting Romans 6:23 In Context

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Hidden In Him

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The book of Romans, among others, is written with the express purpose of presenting both sides on the conflict, challenging us to choose the right one, and the consequences of making the wrong choice. Romans 6 in particular reveals how we align ourselves with whichever choice we do make, and that is through surrender.

Yes, in a sense, particularly if you introduce the Pharisees and Judaizers and the message they were preaching, which was contrary to the gospel. But you'd have to give a verse by verse for me to fully understand specifically how you are interpreting the passage.

Whenever you have time, if you want to. This thread is a slow train, but it may end up stretching for miles, LoL.
 

charity

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Yeah, Chris, it appears you take the position that justification is an inalterable state. This sort of puts us at loggerheads. I could ask you to respond to the second half of Post #134 if you like, but I don't think it would likely get us anywhere. Very tough for two people to see eye-to-eye when they are approaching a discussion from two diametrically opposed positions.

Blessings in Christ, sister, and glad you are posting just the same : ). If you would like to respond to that one, I'd be interested to hear what you think.
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes,
.. that they may also obtain
.... the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

It is a faithful saying:
.. For if we be dead with Him, we shall also live with Him:
.... If we suffer
(or 'endure' - v.9), we shall also reign with Him:
...... if we deny Him, He also will deny us:
........ If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful:
.......... He cannot deny Himself.
(2 Timothy 2:10-13)

Hello @Hidden In Him,

Thank you for your gracious reply.
You mention the second part of, reply #134, as something I may wish to respond to. I see that it is a consideration of 2 Timothy 2:10-13, quoted above.

In the Gospels the words, 'deny', and ' to be ashamed of', are used interchangeably (see mark 8:38 & Matthew 10:33). This links the words,
'Be not ashamed' (2 Timothy 1:8), 'I am not ashamed' (2 Timothy 1:12),'He was not ashamed' (2 Timothy 1:16) with this matter of enduring or of denying the Lord, and in verse 15 the word occurs again:-

'Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
rightly dividing the word of truth.'

* Lets look what is being said in 2 Timothy 2:11-13:-

As to Life: - If we died with Him we shall also live with Him.
if we are unfaithful, He abideth faithful, He cannot deny Himself.
As to Reigning: - If we endure we shall also reign with Him, if we deny, He also will deny us.

Reigning
and the crown is to this epistle, what the prize is to Philippians, and the reward is to Hebrews. In Philippians and Hebrews, these expressions are connected with perfection and the things that accompany salvation, and not salvation itself. This passage also does not speak of the possibility of loss of salvation, but of the loss of reward.

Praise God!

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Hidden In Him

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In the Gospels the words, 'deny', and ' to be ashamed of', are used interchangeably (see mark 8:38 & Matthew 10:33). This links the words,
'Be not ashamed' (2 Timothy 1:8), 'I am not ashamed' (2 Timothy 1:12),'He was not ashamed' (2 Timothy 1:16) with this matter of enduring or of denying the Lord, and in verse 15 the word occurs again:-

'Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
rightly dividing the word of truth.'


* Lets look what is being said in 2 Timothy 2:11-13:-

As to Life: - If we died with Him we shall also live with Him.
if we are unfaithful, He abideth faithful, He cannot deny Himself.
As to Reigning: - If we endure we shall also reign with Him, if we deny, He also will deny us.

Thanks for your gracious reply as well, Charity : }

Listen, about this argument, the possibility actually crossed my mind when I was writing my last post (i.e. that "denying" here would relate only to kingship but not salvation). But now, if you look at Christ's entire teaching in Matthew 10, He strongly suggests in context that salvation is the subject matter and not just reward, and that those who refuse to endure persecution for His name's sake will not be saved:

22 And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved.
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee into another: for verily I say unto you, You shall not have gone over the cities of Israel till the Son of man be come.
24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell...
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and follow after me, is not worthy of me.

I think Paul was using the expression "deny Him" in 2nd Timothy in the same way Jesus was using it here.
 

Naomi25

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Ok, maybe I can get some work in today. I'm behind by two whole pages now, LoL.
That's the problem when you start a thread...you have to find time to answer everybody! And that can almost be a full time job!

About this, I didn't actually say we "have peace with God through the Holy Spirit." I was saying the Holy Spirit coming upon us is proof that we have peace with God through faith in Christ Jesus, and that justification through faith in His blood is what opens the door to it. This is what is referred to in Ephesians Chapter 2, where Paul said concerning the outpouring among the Gentiles:

13 But now in Christ Jesus you who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. (Ephesians 2:13-18)

In other words, Jesus IS our peace because through faith in Him we have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
If I understand you correctly (which I apparently didn't before, sorry!), you are suggesting that the 'outpouring' of the Spirit is what 'opens' the door for our salvation, but doesn't guarantee it? (Your post #69)
The objection I have to that is that I would say that the bible seems to teach that when the Holy Spirit is poured out upon us, we do, indeed, have a guarantee. The verses you quote above tell us that the Spirit brings us near, gives us access to God the Father. 2 Cor 1:21-22 tells us that the Holy Spirit has been put in our hearts as a guarantee and Ephesians 1:13-14 says we are sealed with the Spirit who is the guarantee of a promised inheritance. This suggests rather strongly, I believe, not of just a welcoming door cracked open, but of a sureness, of a changed heart that has a member of the Trinity dwelling within it that is guiding us towards a promised future. I am unsure how something worded so strongly could waver between dead, 'undwelt' in heart, and alive, dwelt in heart, based solely upon our performance. Should, as you say, a person live in long, consistent, unrepentant sin, I cannot see the bible suggesting that the Holy Spirit dwells within that person at all.


Ok, you reference Paul here. That's good. Let me show you something from what he wrote to Timothy:

1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus... endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.... 10 I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us.

Now notice how salvation is contingent upon something here. Paul tells Timothy, "IF we suffer [with Him], we shall also reign with Him, but IF we deny Him, He will deny us." He was telling this to Timothy, which means Paul was readily acknowledging that both he and Timothy could potentially deny Christ. Hence his encouragement to Timothy to keep enduring hardships as a good soldier of Christ. Now we have documents saying that by the time of Trajan (110 A.D.) those whom the Romans coerced into denying Christ were forced to curse Him, and worship the pagan images instead to save their lives.
Well, I suppose to use a previous analogy, I would firstly say that, just because a parent who holds their child's hand tightly, points towards the road and tells that child what would happen should that child run towards it and onto it, does not necessarily mean that the parent will or intent to, let go of the child's hand.
Secondly, I would say that if we look at how Christ presents his relationship with us and how we stand in him and in the gospel:

I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. -Galatians 2:20

If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours. -John 15:18–20

Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, -2 Timothy 3:12


In 2 Tim 2:10-13 (what you quoted above), we see Paul encouraging Timothy to accept the coming suffering.

You then, my child, be strengthened by the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also. Share in suffering as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. -2 Timothy 2:1–3

When we see that he goes on to tell Timothy that he endures all suffering for the sake of the gospel so that others may come to Christ, we then understand that Paul thinks of it in a very matter of fact way; Christ suffered for us, now we suffer for him, and for our fellow brothers...this is promised to us by Christ. We endure these things knowing that if Christ died for us, he will also cause us to live with him. We see this passage not as a 'you betta measure up' list, but another passage that lines up the contrasts of what happens to those who are in Christ, and those who are not, and God's faithfulness in dealing with both. To the faithful and those being condemned. Consider:

The saying is trustworthy, for:
If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;
if we are faithless, he remains faithful
for he cannot deny himself.


"If we have died with him"..... If we have been baptized into his death...ie, become born again (Rom 6:3-6), He will be faithful to make us live with him. This is not a condition, but a promise. Do you have the Spirit? That Spirit is the promise of his faithfulness.
"If we endure"....As we face the inevitable hardships and sufferings that WILL come, we CAN know that he has promised we shall reign with him. How can we know this, that we will endure through all? Because God himself promises to finish a work he began: Romans 8:29-30, John 28:30, Heb 12:2.

The passage here splits off and begins to show the unfaithful, and how God is still faithful, still just, in his dealings with them.
"If we deny him"...we know that this is clearly not a one time denial thing, otherwise Peter himself would have been damned. This, as you suggest, speaks of long time denial...of that moment when people cry out "Lord, Lord!" and he answers them "I did not know you". He promises us that he will faithfully judge the hearts of all men, despite what our mouths say, he knows our hearts.
"If we are faithless"...again, the promise to recognize the hearts of those who refuse to acknowledge God or his Christ. His faithfulness here is that we may know that his promises to us are as sure and just as his promises to the faithless.

All of which is to say, I suppose, is that I think the idea you posit, that salvation, once given, must be worked to be kept, is far too big an idea to balance on an 'if'. Especially when there is so much biblical weight against it.
 
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Naomi25

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So the argument becomes this: If Paul and Timothy were both capable of denying Christ (as Paul's own words suggest), I would think all believers are capable of doing so, and that means that salvation is still in flux in believer's lives until the end. If a man denies Christ and curses Him to His face, how can he still be saved? He is utterly renouncing Him, and proclaiming to the whole world that He is unquestionably NOT God. :confused:
Is this like a Schrödinger's cat thing? Like...as long as Christians are 'in the box of life' they exist in a state of saved and unsaved simultaneously? And it's not until they die, and the box pops open that we discover if they're dead or alive??

I think...I would say that it is not a case that Christians can NOT deny Christ....just that if they are truly born again, they WILL not. The bible is replete with promises, as I listed above, that the work of salvation, or sanctification, is not one done on our merit or strength. Therefore to deny it's sureness is to deny Christ's sureness. To deny it's strength and sufficiency is to deny Christ's strength and sufficiency. And, based solely upon what my bible tells me, I am just not comfortable doing that. And I thank God for it daily.

So then reconciliation is not a permanent state, nor is justification. They are contingent upon if we abide in Christ until the end, and not fall away out of fear of men and what they can do to us. This is why it says, "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

I'm sorry, but I find nothing that suggests that the state of new birth, the state of a new heart being given to a believer, that the Holy Spirit coming to dwell inside someone, is not permanent. And to say that 'there is therefore now no condemnation' means that it is only speaking of a present, current reality and not one even a day away, is, to my mind, taking so much depth and beauty and truth out of some much of scripture. Everything Christ did for us, everything Paul affirms, tells us that 'now' stands in firm contrast to 'then'. 'Then', we were in darkness. 'Then', we were dead in our sins and flesh. 'Then' we were blind, lame and deaf. 'Now'...however. Goodness...'now'?? 'Now' we are alive, we are in the light, we are of righteousness and we see, hear and run the race! The whole NT is full to overflow of these images. And if you change it to momentary wobbles back and forth...what hope do any of us truly have? If we are only of the light, righteousness and life thanks to Christ's work and the Spirit's work, how do you propose we then stand on our own to live correctly? How do the days we get salvation right outweigh the days when we trip, fall and land in the darkness again? What hope do we have that we won't meet death on a day when we're visiting that darkness? This is not a gospel of good news. It's a message of terror, I'm sorry. It's a message of "Christ gave you a nice nudge at the start, but now you're expected to keep up what God jolly well knew only he could do in the first place. Now off you go...don't forget, hell is at the end!"
You see...I'm afraid it's either one or the other. Either...we are of Christ, and we DO have his Spirit dwelling within us constantly, urging us forward and through our faults and sins to become better, to put them to death and keep going in faithfulness, in which case our salvation is sure. OR, we are capable of somehow ridding ourselves of the Spirit as we 'mess up', and then somehow managing to earn him back again on our own...what...work? Which is not how it ever went, is it?

I'm sorry, but I just can't see how it all fits together. You seem to support the idea of a person, repeatedly, defiantly opposes Christ and denounces him as being someone who 'looses his salvation'. But from scripture it seems evident to me that the person you describe was never a Christian.

Maybe we can get to that later. Like I said, it would be a lot of work, LoL. :)
It's cool. Took me all day to bang out this one. Like I said...you're making my brain hurt...I usually try and avoid working it this hard...especially when it's this hot! (97°F)
 
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charity

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Thanks for your gracious reply as well, Charity : }

Listen, about this argument, the possibility actually crossed my mind when I was writing my last post (i.e. that "denying" here would relate only to kingship but not salvation). But now, if you look at Christ's entire teaching in Matthew 10, He strongly suggests in context that salvation is the subject matter and not just reward, and that those who refuse to endure persecution for His name's sake will not be saved:

22 And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved.
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee into another: for verily I say unto you, You shall not have gone over the cities of Israel till the Son of man be come.
24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell...
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and follow after me, is not worthy of me.

I think Paul was using the expression "deny Him" in 2nd Timothy in the same way Jesus was using it here.
'Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes,
that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
It is a faithful saying:
For if we be dead with Him, we shall also live with Him:
If we suffer (endure), we shall also reign with Him:
if we deny him, he also will deny us:
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: He cannot deny Himself.

(2 Timothy 2:10-13)

'And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake:
but He that endureth to the end shall be saved.'

(Matthew 10:22)

Hello @Hidden In Him,

The words 'endure' or 'suffer' (G5278, )and 'deny' (G720) are translated from the same Greek words in both Matthew 10:22 & 33, and 2 Timothy 2: 11-13. So it is the context which is key to understanding both, isn't it?

* The object of God, through Paul in 2 Timothy 2, was that those to whom he wrote should 'obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory'

* The object of God, through the words of our Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 10:22, was that those to whom He spoke should be saved from the persecution that was to come upon them, and remain faithful, and so He showed them Who they were to fear: not their persecutors who could only kill the body; but He Who had the power to deny them a resurrection out from among the dead, so that their mortality would never put on immortality, or their corruption put on in-corruption (1 Corinthians 15:53-54).

* The salvation that Paul desired his hearers to obtain in 2 Timothy 2:10-13, was not salvation from death, but the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. That could be lost without loss of salvation from death, for it was the reward for faithfulness in regard to the hope that was set before them (Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon).

Thank you once again,
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 
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Hidden In Him

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Hello there, @Hidden In Him,

As you have said, there are two illustrations given in Romans 6:16 -7:6, the one of 'Master' and the other of 'Husband', marked by the words, 'Know ye not?' In verses 6:16 and 7:1. The first one is spoken especially to the Gentiles among Paul's hearers, who had never been under law; and and the second to the Jews among them, who had been under the law. These two companies, although saved by the same great Sacrifice, and by the same faith, through the same grace, nevertheless had their own separate problems.

With the question of the dominion of sin, death, and law. The problems of both Jew and Gentile were much the same when the matter was limited to the dominion of sin and death, therefore the opening section of this chapter (Rom. 6:1-14) which deals with this twofold dominion is not divided into two parts, one for Gentile believers, and one for Jewish believers. The section under debate here though deals with the dominion of law, this being not a matter of conscience for the Gentile, could be explained to them along the lines of the setting free of slaves, which for them was a matter of everyday occurrence: but for the Jew, though a believer, anything which appeared to set aside the law of God was looked upon with suspicion, and considered almost blasphemy. So this second section is divided into two parts. To the Gentile Paul speaks 'after the manner of men', and to the Jew he speaks to those who acknowledge the law. To the Gentile he uses the figure of master and slave; to the Jew the figure of husband and wife. In both cases he brings the fact of death to bear upon the claims of the master or husband, and to both he reveals the glorious possibilities of life.

Btw, Charity, I forgot to respond to this one yesterday, but it did make me take pause for a second. I had to go back and read through the early Chapters of Romans to see if there was possibly merit to it. But Romans 1:13 makes it clear he was actually writing to Gentile believers. The reason it appears as if he is writing to Jews as well is because of Romans 2:17-27, where he was addressing the Judaizers among them. But in Romans 2:28-29, he ends up sort of obliterating the claim that anyone is a Jew by genealogy alone.

Anyway, found it interesting, but I think the entire letter is written to Gentile Christians, not Jewish ones, though with a defense against the types of arguments Judaizers might use.
 

Hidden In Him

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Order of events for those in Rome:
1) were servants of unrighteousness (serving sin unto death)
2) they then obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine (serve obedience unto righteousness)
3) then freed from sin/justified

Obedience was a necessary condition God has placed upon His gift of justification.

Blessings, Earnest T., and I hope you had a good Thanksgiving.

I am in agreement with most of your interpretation. The only exception would be here where you say justification comes after entering into obedience (i.e. #3). My belief is that we are immediately justified the moment we put faith and trust in Christ having died on our behalf. Where I think obedience comes in is that if it remains blatantly absent from the believer's life, the justification that came as a free gift can be rescinded if the sin is egregious enough.

But maybe I'm not fully understanding you correctly. Just thought I'd clarify where we would potentially disagree.

Thanks for the post.
 

Enoch111

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I'm sorry, but I find nothing that suggests that the state of new birth, the state of a new heart being given to a believer, that the Holy Spirit coming to dwell inside someone, is permanent.
Did you mean "is NOT permanent"? Since if you think it is temporary, the whole meaning of salvation by grace through faith goes down the drain.
 

Hidden In Him

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Sorry, no kapische!
The passage clearly says these believers ARE slaves of sin NOW.

"Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey,
you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether
(slaves) of sin leading to (eternal) death, OR
(slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness?" (Romans 6:16)

LoL. Hey, Zachary!

Listen, I'm guessing you are citing Romans 6:16 in support of this, but v.17 says they obeyed from the heart the teachings that were delivered to them. For them to be slaves of sin again, it would have to mean they were slaves to sin before coming to Christ, entered into obedience to Christ instead, but had now fallen back into obedience to sin. I think more would have to be said in context (something like what Peter goes into in 2 Peter 2:20-22) if that were the case.

Hope you had a great Thanksgiving!
 
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farouk

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Btw, Charity, I forgot to respond to this one yesterday, but it did make me take pause for a second. I had to go back and read through the early Chapters of Romans to see if there was possibly merit to it. But Romans 1:13 makes it clear he was actually writing to Gentile believers. The reason it appears as if he is writing to Jews as well is because of Romans 2:17-27, where he was addressing the Judaizers among them. But in Romans 2:28-29, he ends up sort of obliterating the claim that anyone is a Jew by genealogy alone.

Anyway, found it interesting, but I think the entire letter is written to Gentile Christians, not Jewish ones, though with a defense against the types of arguments Judaizers might use.
It's interesting that the truth of justification by faith is in the Old Testament; while Paul of course was the Apostle to the Gentiles.
 
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Hidden In Him

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But is it different? Let's say that you're right and Paul is speaking only about the Jewish laws. He's still making the point that obeying set laws, set expectations of morality, will not, cannot, lead to salvation, or even keep it.
Why would he then turn around and point to a different set of rules, a set of moral expectations, and say that those DO need to be kept for salvation, to keep it. That would seem to me to totally contradict the...ah...rules of play, so to speak, that he just laid down over salvation and how one is to keep it.

Ah... on the surface, this appears to be a good point, Naomi. But let me explain to you why. The Jewish laws pointed symbolically to spiritual realities that would take place in the lives of believers. For instance, eating unclean foods represented taking unclean demonic spirits within oneself, and how abhorrent that would be to God. Was the act of eating unclean foods itself of any great importance? No, not once the revelation was given to the early church that it only represented a greater spiritual reality, and was therefore nothing in and of itself. But the reality was indeed something very serious. Jesus scolded the Pharisees for harboring unclean spirits several times, and Revelations also prophesied that the false church would likewise become a habitation of unclean spirits in the end-times. So not eating unclean foods in the natural became no big deal. But receiving demonic spirits within oneself was.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.” -John 10:27–30

I think snatching them out of His hand is again related to death taking them from Him again here. Notice, "I will give them eternal life, and they will never perish," and then He says, "and no one will snatch them out of My hand." If the reference were to deceivers stealing them away in this life, the natural sequence would be "no one [on earth] will snatch them out of My hand, and I will give them eternal life, and they will never perish."

Certainly it could be interpreted the other way and still be plausible, but the ordering gives full support to the notion that He was again talking about death being what would snatch them away.
 
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@Hidden In Him @Naomi25 @charity
I mentioned a few posts previously, (probably a few pages by now :rolleyes:) to Hidden that when we look at scripture we would do well to contextualise each passage within the concept of the conflict that is constantly taking place between Christ and Satan-- the conflict and doubt that has ensued over millennia regarding the character of God, and our place within that conflict and our roles as witnesses and born again men and women destined to once again bear the image of God as humanity was first created in His image and exemplified by Adam and Eve, and since restored by Christ who being the express image of the Father revealed the true potential of the human race.
This context is particularly relevant when discussing whether we can lose our salvation, because it directly relates to the character of God, and the image of God to which we are destined to reveal in our lives. And it all revolves around love, which is the very essence of God's nature. I don't think anyone would disagree with me so far right? But it is the nature of love which we need to apprehend in order to understand how God desires to relate to us, and we Him, and one of the intrinsic or inherent characteristics of love is the freedom to refuse to respond in kind. Which is why God never coerces or forces humanity to honour and love Him. He draws us to Himself through love...and keeps us faithful through the same medium...always with the risk that at any time we may refuse, change our minds, disobey, commit spiritual adultery as Israel so often did, as exemplified by Hosea. Yes, God remains faithful...but we do not always remain faithful...and the consequences of unfaithfulness are attested to throughout scripture as having dire consequences. No where is unfaithfulness said to bring about a "loss of reward". No where was Israel ever treated with such leniency...they lost far more than "reward"...they lost their inheritance and their rights to enter the promised land. So also shall we if we do not remain faithful to our trust. While God's love for us will always remain constant and unconditional, nowhere in scripture is there any suggestion that our salvation is unconditional.
To suggest that God's love, offered unconditionally but at great risk that it may be cast back in His face thus ensuring that humans are free agents to accept or reject that love, after having granted salvation to an individual and then changing the parameters of love in order to enforce salvation regardless of that individuals personal response and life directly disobeying those "greatest commandments", denies the testimony of scripture which declares of God, "I change not".
 
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Hidden In Him

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He asks for 'forgiveness' of his debts out of fear of consequences alone, and once he believes he's got it, he whistles off into the sunset free and easy to enact evil on others. There is no repentance of his initial need of forgiveness, and certainly no repentance of character that leads to his actions with the other servant.

I dunno, Naomi. :) I think you're stretching it a bit here to be honest with you. Look at the text:

26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, "Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all."
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

Now, if the servant was just pulling the wool over his eyes, you have our Lord here being moved with compassion towards someone who was disingenuous. That kinda paints the Lord in a gullible light, don't you think? Why would he respond to a deliberate deception by being moved with compassion?
I think that the main point of the parable is being faithful with what God has entrusted into our care; be that wisdom, or be that family.
And while the last, lazy servant may indeed still call the master his master, let us not forget that Christ is Lord of all, regardless of their heart intent towards them. And again, we see in Verse 26 that he is called a 'Wicked' servant...not something that Christ would label his own.

My answer here would be that He calls him "servant" throughout, which is not something He calls those who do not believe in Him.
 
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Episkopos

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Did you mean "is NOT permanent"? Since if you think it is temporary, the whole meaning of salvation by grace through faith goes down the drain.


Not so. Just as our sinful state is not permanent but our freedom dictated by entrance into grace...so likewise is the exodus of the sinless state also not permanent because of the possibility of frustrating grace. We can go in and come out again. Otherwise freedom is curtailed and we are imprisoned either in sin or in God. That is NOT God's way.

If we can repent of evil so we can repent of righteousness.

God is fair and His ways are equal and just.

But religious doctors have made a system whereby the dice are always loaded in their favour. I say dice because the game is about to be shown that it is a scam.
 
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charity

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Btw, Charity, I forgot to respond to this one yesterday, but it did make me take pause for a second. I had to go back and read through the early Chapters of Romans to see if there was possibly merit to it. But Romans 1:13 makes it clear he was actually writing to Gentile believers. The reason it appears as if he is writing to Jews as well is because of Romans 2:17-27, where he was addressing the Judaizers among them. But in Romans 2:28-29, he ends up sort of obliterating the claim that anyone is a Jew by genealogy alone.

Anyway, found it interesting, but I think the entire letter is written to Gentile Christians, not Jewish ones, though with a defense against the types of arguments Judaizers might use.

Thank you, @Hidden In Him,

Though I must disagree: for in this epistle Israel as well as Gentile, both in their sin and their salvation, are placed in their true relation to the purpose of God. The church at Rome containing a fairly even mix of Jewish and Gentile believers, it was necessary to adjust the differences between them. See chapters 9 and 11 for example which deals with the sore point of Israel's rejection (though temporary), necessitating reference to Sinai and to the covenant made before that with Abraham.

I will not take this further, because you already have your hands full. So, 'bye for now' :)

In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris
 
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Hidden In Him

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Paul starts Chapter 6 by telling us that we have died to sin, and walk in the newness of Christ. In 6:14 he proclaims that sin will have no dominion over us. With that explicit understanding, he then goes on in the beginning, and weaving throughout of our passage to spell out what the dangers of enslavement to sin looked like in our life before we were set free, the consequences it would have inevitably led to. But then, starting in Vv 17, he again reminds us that we were 'once' slaves to sin and have now become 'obedient'. It goes on, but there is a very clear 'once...now' symmetry within the passage. But if we read carefully, there is no, not once, intimation that Paul fears or expects, any of those he is speaking to to actually fall back into sin. Just like we do not expect our child, once he is old enough to fully understand WHAT will happen should they barrel out onto the street, to do so. The reminder remains fresh, as children get distracted, but no child, or person, acts in a way that places them in deaths path, not unless they have mental issues.

Well, again now, Naomi, my problem with this interpretation is that it changes the subjects being addressed in the passage from the Christians living at Rome 2,000 years ago into all Christians who have ever lived throughout history. I don't read the passage as a bunch of theoretical statements about Christians in general, but as spoken with regard specifically to the Christians in Rome at that time. When he said, "but you became obedient to that form of teaching that was delivered to you," he was talking specifically about them, not us. So any "once ... now" time signatures that may appear in the text don't relate to us, they relate only to them.

Certainly we can glean things from the passage or I wouldn't have started the thread, LoL. But assuming the passage is a bunch of theoretical statements about all Christians is IMO misreading the passage : )
Here we get into a really messy knotty ball. Because, who can really know? Let's say there a Christian mother over in North Korea. She is quietly faithful in a hard Country, secretly raising her small children to love Christ, doing the best she can in a terrifying dictatorship. But what if she is discovered, and is called on to denounce Christ or watch her children shot in the head. What if in that very second she stumbles out of fear for her kids and does it. And they are all killed as martyrs anyway. Is she any worse than Peter?

No, she is not : ) And no, it is most certainly not an impardonable sin. If she repents of it and is willing to suffer and die for Christ's sake then she would be forgiven just as Peter was. But now, the argument I was raising is, suppose she never does repent of denying Him before men? Suppose she continues to deny Christ until her death?

Btw, my apologies for answering these out of sequence. It's tough finding the right post to be responding to, LoL. But I wouldn't have it any other way. Just hope I don't mis anybody : }
Or, what if someone was raised in a Christian home, felt they were a Christian, but married a man who abused her, and used the faith to do it. What if the Church never lifted a finger to help her and she 'turned away' from both Church and Christ for many, many years. So many of us would declare her either apostate or never saved at all. But all the while Christ resided as a small nugget in her heart, waiting, guiding, wooing. And in her 60's, something happens that opens her heart and mind and brings her back. Who are we to judge that in-between period and say she can't be adopted? Why can't she just be a prodigal? Why shouldn't we pray for her heart to be restored?

Well absolutely. I believe the Lord gives each one of us all the time He possibly can to repent, and waits patiently for each of us until the last moment. Nor do I judge anyone based on what I see. I know of Christians involved in gross sins and perversions who I still believe very firmly belong to Him. But there are some sins I believe the Lord simply will not overlook, denouncing Him before men being one of them.
The fact of the matter is; we can never really know a person's heart or where they stand with Christ. Their fruit can often lead us to speculate, but even then we shouldn't stop praying that their adoption would be made sure. But the thing of it is this: any decent adoptive parent is not going to give up on a rebellious child, a hurting child, a prodigal child, a child that makes mistakes, a child that hurts - from their own sins or sins of another. If you are a parent, you know that that is not something that will ever stop being true. It may grieve you at times, tire you at times, anger you at times, make you broke at times.

Absolutely.
But they will always be yours.

Now this last statement here is where we get into a cruel reality that I think I accept but you reject as being possible with God. The difference between our relationship with God and an earthly father is that He requires us to worship Him as God, and He will have no other gods before Him. Hence a sin like taking the mark of the beast is something He will not overlook either. He is a jealous God, and unlike in the human analogy there are a few things that are paramount to disowning Him. As the scripture says, "If we deny Him, He will deny us." Deny, denounce, and disown are all plausible translations of the word used here in the Greek, and what that means is, He will not simply continue to call His own those who have disowned him before men.

I think the full passage as I quoted it to Charity explains this better. Let me get it and quote it here.

22 And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved.
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee into another: for verily I say unto you, You shall not have gone over the cities of Israel till the Son of man be come.
24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell...
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and follow after me, is not worthy of me.
 

Hidden In Him

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Not so. Just as our sinful state is not permanent but dictated by entrance into grace...so likewise is the exodus of the sinless state also not permanent because of the possibility of frustrating grace. We can go in and come out again. Otherwise freedom is curtailed and we are imprisoned either in sin or in God. That is NOT God's way.

Oh, my goodness is that well put!
Thread winner, Episkopos.
 

Hidden In Him

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Thank you, @Hidden In Him,

Though I must disagree: for in this epistle Israel as well as Gentile, both in their sin and their salvation, are placed in their true relation to the purpose of God. The church at Rome containing a fairly even mix of Jewish and Gentile believers, it was necessary to adjust the differences between them. See chapters 9 and 11 for example which deals with the sore point of Israel's rejection (though temporary), necessitating reference to Sinai and to the covenant made before that with Abraham.

I will not take this further, because you already have your hands full. So, 'bye for now' :)

In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

Yes, Ma'am. I do find it interesting. Something I've always found a little confounding, actually. That's part of why I think I was led to start this thread. Romans is quite honestly not a book I am completely refined in all my interpretations on yet.

Thanks for your courtesy. I appreciate that. Maybe we can get into this part of it more later : )
 
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charity

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Yes, Ma'am. I do find it interesting. Something I've always found a little confounding, actually. That's part of why I think I was led to start this thread. Romans is quite honestly not a book I am completely refined in all my interpretations on yet.

Thanks for your courtesy. I appreciate that. Maybe we can get into this part of it more later : )

I agree, I think it is one of the hardest of the epistles to understand. A book that I have found really helpful, is to be found for free download at:- https://www.bibleunderstanding.com/Just, and the Justifier-Mr.C.H.Welch.pdf

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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