The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[epostle]

care to show book chapter and verse that says that ? the Holt Spirit interceded for us not mary. see you have nothing scripture wise to back up this mary beelief

let me know when you get off the milk and ready for strong meat . ignore the truth if you loke ignore me , i will sleep just fine

What does "my soul magnifies the Lord" mean to you? Or is it just filler?

 

[epostle]

Full of grace DOES NOT EQUAL sinless.

Romans 6:14: “For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.” (cf. Rom 5:17,20-21, 2 Cor 1:12, 2 Timothy 1:9)

We are saved by grace, and grace alone:

Ephesians 2:8-10: “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God – not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” (cf. Acts 15:11, Rom 3:24, 11:5, Eph 2:5, Titus 2:11, 3:7, 1 Pet 1:10)

Thus, the biblical argument outlined above proceeds as follows:

1. Grace saves us.

2. Grace gives us the power to be holy and righteous and without sin.

Therefore, for a person to be full of grace is both to be saved and to be completely, exceptionally holy. It’s a “zero-sum game”: the more grace one has, the less sin. One might look at grace as water, and sin as the air in an empty glass (us). When you pour in the water (grace), the sin (air) is displaced. A full glass of water, therefore, contains no air (see also, similar zero-sum game concepts in 1 John 1:7, 9; 3:6, 9; 5:18). To be full of grace is to be devoid of sin. Thus we might re-apply the above two propositions:


1. To be full of the grace that saves is surely to be saved.

2. To be full of the grace that gives us the power to be holy, righteous, and without sin is to be fully without sin, by that same grace.

A deductive, biblical argument for the Immaculate Conception, with premises derived directly from Scripture, might look like this:

1. The Bible teaches that we are saved by God’s grace.

2. To be “full of” God’s grace, then, is to be saved.

3. Therefore, Mary is saved (Luke 1:28).

4. The Bible teaches that we need God’s grace to live a holy life, free from sin.

5. To be “full of” God’s grace is thus to be so holy that one is sinless.

6. Therefore, Mary is holy and sinless.

7. The essence of the Immaculate Conception is sinlessness.

8. Therefore, the Immaculate Conception, in its essence, can be directly deduced from Scripture.

The only way out of the logic would be to deny one of the two premises, and hold either that grace does not save or that grace is not that power which enables one to be sinless and holy. It is highly unlikely that any Evangelical Protestant would take such a position, so the argument is a very strong one, because it proceeds upon their own premises.

In this fashion, the essence of the Immaculate Conception (i.e., the sinlessness of Mary) is proven from biblical principles and doctrines accepted by every orthodox Protestant. Certainly all mainstream Christians agree that grace is required both for salvation and to overcome sin. So in a sense my argument is only one of degree, deduced (almost by common sense, I would say) from notions that all Christians hold in common.

But you don't care, you just deny the premise held by every Evangelical Protestant, with unbiblical conclusions:
Full of grace DOES NOT EQUAL sinless.

None of the early reformers believed that Mary was a sinner which proves that modern day Protestantism is theologically chaotic. If Mary was a sinner, then Jesus would have had to repose in a sinful womb and been nourished with the blood of a sinner until His actual birth.

The notion that Mary was a sinner came out in the late 18th century. Before that, every Protestant denomination accepted her sinless nature. Your flat out denial of what your own reformers taught is laden with lame excuses. It is the very nature of Protestantism to disagree with the reformers and their own scholars and reference manuals. You are preaching a man made 250 year old tradition and not aware of it.

 

[Ezra]

What does "my soul magnifies the Lord" mean to you? Or is it just filler?

i thought i was on ignore what do you think it says btw this has nothing to do with your argument

1. Grace saves us.

2. Grace gives us the power to be holy and righteous and without sin.

Therefore, for a person to be full of grace is both to be saved and to be completely, exceptionally holy. It’s a “zero-sum game”: the more grace one has, the less sin. One might look at grace as water, and sin as the air in an empty glass (us). When you pour in the water (grace), the sin (air) is displaced. A full glass of water, therefore, contains no air (see also, similar zero-sum game concepts in 1 John 1:7, 9; 3:6, 9; 5:18). To be full of grace is to be devoid of sin. Thus we might re-apply the above two propositions:


1. To be full of the grace that saves is surely to be saved.

2. To be full of the grace that gives us the power to be holy, righteous, and without sin is to be fully without sin, by that same grace.

A deductive, biblical argument for the Immaculate Conception, with premises derived directly from Scripture, might look like this:

1. The Bible teaches that we are saved by God’s grace.

2. To be “full of” God’s grace, then, is to be saved.

3. Therefore, Mary is saved (Luke 1:28). yes she is

4. The Bible teaches that we need God’s grace to live a holy life, free from sin.yes we do

5. To be “full of” God’s grace is thus to be so holy that one is sinless. NO

1 John 1:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 {If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.}

6. Therefore, Mary is holy and sinless. WRONG

7. The essence of the Immaculate Conception is sinlessness. the only sinless person was CHRIST Jesus

8. Therefore, the Immaculate Conception, in its essence, can be directly deduced from Scripture. wrong

The only way out of the logic would be to deny one of the two premises, and hold either that grace does not save or that grace is not that power which enables one to be sinless and holy. It is highly unlikely that any Evangelical Protestant would take such a position, so the argument is a very strong one, because it proceeds upon their own premises.

where does it say mary was sinless show scripture.. .she had to come to God through Christ ye must be born again that includes mary
G . God
R. riches
A.at
C.Christ
E, Expense

Jesus
was the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. mary was convinced in birth by her mom and dad. she was born in iniquity

Psalm 51:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

[Ezra]

What does "my soul magnifies the Lord" mean to you? Or is it just filler?

magnify in large life his name up

 

[reformed1689]

Romans 6:14: “For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.” (cf. Rom 5:17,20-21, 2 Cor 1:12, 2 Timothy 1:9)

Yes, but it does not say we were sinless.

2. Grace gives us the power to be holy and righteous and without sin.

But does not say that we are sinless.

2. To be full of the grace that gives us the power to be holy, righteous, and without sin is to be fully without sin, by that same grace.

No that is not what that means. She was BORN into sin. The Bible does not state otherwise.

6. Therefore, Mary is holy and sinless.

No, this is eisigesis.

The only way out of the logic would be to deny one of the two premises, and hold either that grace does not save or that grace is not that power which enables one to be sinless and holy.

The premises are wrong. Grace does not say we are sinless. It says we are held as sinless in that we do not receive punishment for sin but rather receive life. But it does not say sinless on this earth.

 

[Ezra]

The premises are wrong. Grace does not say we are sinless. It says we are held as sinless in that we do not receive punishment for sin but rather receive life. But it does not say sinless on this earth.

the only thing to add is 2nd corinthians 5:21 he became sin/ sin sacrifice who knew no sin .that we might become --------- .that would go for MARY. SHE NEEDED A SAVIOUR your catholic theology us not correct

 

[Mungo]

the only thing to add is 2nd corinthians 5:21 he became sin/ sin sacrifice who knew no sin .that we might become --------- .that would go for MARY. SHE NEEDED A SAVIOUR your catholic theology us not correct

She had a savious in Jesus Christ. But she was saved in a different way to us, namely at the moment of her conception, not later after birth like us.

 

[Ezra]

But she was saved in a different way to us, namely at the moment of her conception, not later after birth like us

where do you get that carnal theory.? that's not even Bible every man/woman/child has to com the way of the cross And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.Matthew 1:21 Luke 2:11 For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,

28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,

29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:

30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;

32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.

34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;

35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;

37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

39 And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.


note verse 33 mary or joseph understood.


1 Timothy 2:3-5 King James Version (KJV)
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
i have no idea where you get your scriptures from.. Mary had to b saved the exact same way we do Born again .

 

[epostle]

Years ago I was debating with super-moderater Mrs. Slick on the CARM forum. She said that Mary was nothing more than an incubator. I left that forum and never went back.

 

[Ezra]

Years ago I was debating with super-moderater Mrs. Slick on the CARM forum. She said that Mary was nothing more than an incubator. I left that forum and never went back.

and? she was a chosen vessel God used her to bring in the hrist seed. nothing more nothing less ..i been in carm .your views of mary is way off

 

[BreadOfLife]

And MANY other linguists, far more educated than you are I say that is NOT the definition. Not to mention, even your definition doesn't say sinless.
And you have YET to show me where these linguists say that the definition I gave is NOT the definition of Kecharitomene.
That's why I gave you FOUR different definitions of the word "Paranoia" from FOUR different sources and got FOUR differently-nuanced results.

NOT every source is going to define a word in the exact same way. I gave you TWO sources that DID. - and YOU gave me couple that didn't.
That doesn't mean YOUR sources "rejected" my sources, Einstein . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Already dealt with your Title issue. There are many titles mentioned in Scripture such as;
god; lord; bishop; deacon.
So what? A title doesn't make a person naturally born sinless.

Glory to God,
Taken

Pay attention . . .

Never said that a "title" makes Mary sinless.
Her status as "Kecharitomene" makes her sinless.

 

[BreadOfLife]

And every Southern Baptist Church is a distinctly different church yet still Southern Baptist. Your argument doesn't hold water.

And a Melkite Catholic is NOT a Roman Catholic.
And a Maronie Catholic is NOT a Roman Catholic.
And a Byzantine Catholic is NOT a Roman Catholic.
And a Coptic Catholic is NOT a Roman Catholic.
And a Alexandrian Catholic is NOT a Roman Catholic.

That's just the way it is . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Good grief...Don't you ever look up, read and study Scirpture?

1 Cor 15:
[36] Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Your teaching Mary was Without Sin from her own natural birth, was her Birth, not her DEATH. "Except it die", is a requirement of a Body to become Dead, before it can be quickened.

[38] But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

[39] All flesh is not the same flesh:

[40] There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial:

[42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

[43] It is sown in dishouner ; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
[44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

[45] And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

[47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

[48] As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

You spend your time making outrageous claims without Scriptural verification.

You and I and every other person on this forum are well aware WHY you can not give Scriptural Verification for your outrageous claims. You are regurgitating Catholic Doctrine that was NOT the Doctrine of Christ Jesus or His Chosen Disciples/Apostles.

Why do you continue to wonder, after you have been told?
I have already addressed your abandonement claims. Get a Q-tip... People think you are a waste of time to converse with, and are sick of wasting their time reading your incessive snarky accusations and claims.
BTW, why don't you worry about your lack of support from your Catholic buddies?

There is no exception teaching Mary was sewn in a Natural Sinless Earthy Body.

Glory to God,
Taken

Ummmmm, a human being with a glorified body like Jesus is STILL a human being.
NONE of what you posted differentiates between human men and some other kind of "men".

You can do Scriptural backflips ALL day long and ALL that will make you is a Scriptural Acrobat - but NOT a truth teller.
Lie I said - if YOU want to die in your Docetist Heresy - be my guest.
Only DON'T expect anybody here to follow you . . .

 

[Taken]

Pay attention . . .

Never said that a "title" makes Mary sinless.
Her status as "Kecharitomene" makes her sinless.

Status as from her own natural birth? Ha.

If that WAS the case...apparently that was News to God...since ...

The angel Notified Mary...God had FOUND (discovered) FAVOR In/with Mary...

The angel Notified Mary...the Power of the Holy Spirit Shall ...come upon her...

Apparently you do not comprehend....

Nothing notifies the reader that Mary had Gods favor in her.....until God "found" favor in her.

[30] ...thou hast found favour with God.

Nothing in Scripture notifies the reader, God found favor in Mary when she was naturally born.

The Holy Spirit was not Upon her, until it came upon her, which had NOT occured when the Angel was speaking to her.

[35] ... The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee,

The Holy Spirit was not IN her, until After Jesus ascended up to Heaven in His Risen body.

Preaching "STATUS" is the "means" by which a person IS "SINLESS", is not taught in Scripture, and WHY you can never show it in Scripture.

Preaching any Human, is naturaly born "SINLESS" turns the truth into a Lie.

Case closed,
Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Ummmmm, a human being with a glorified body like Jesus is STILL a human being.

HUMAN is a mans term.
The Scriptural Term is: an Earthy man, A Terrestrial Body.

1 Cor 15:
40] There are also celestial bodies, and bodies Terrestrial:


1 Cor 15:

• [47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

• [48] As is the earthy, such are they also that areearthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

• [49] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Try actually Reading the Scriptures.
You have repeatedly been shown the Truth.
No one can accept the Truth FOR you.

NONE

of what you posted differentiates between human men and some other kind of "men".

What Kind of Man Is God?
According to your teaching: God IS A Human Man.

According to Scripture: God is Spirit, with the Power to Appear AS a HUMAN man, and called a Man. Yet never called a Human man;
(Except by Human men who CHANGE the Truth into a Lie)

You can do Scriptural backflips ALL day long and ALL that will make you is a Scriptural Acrobat - but NOT a truth teller.
Lie I said - if YOU want to die in your Docetist Heresy - be my guest.
Only DON'T expect anybody here to follow you . . .

LOL - you are the one who gets all bent out of shape when people are not following you, your teaching, your Catholic double talk, YOUR Catholic doctrine, and LOL...obviously liking of posts is really a highlight for you!

LOL - And your snarky comments and name calling when you can not provide Scriptural verification for Your claims... a childish game, and well noted, you never matured in Scriptural Wisdom.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Grams]

The teaching I received when I was catholic that if I did not go to confession, and sinned , I was
going to hell........ I sure am glad we now have a bible and read it..... and know the truth....

 

[epostle]

The teaching I received when I was catholic that if I did not go to confession, and sinned , I was
going to hell........ I sure am glad we now have a bible and read it..... and know the truth....

Your anti-Catholic prejudice is based solely on past negative experiences, and maybe you suffered spiritual abuse, and have never stopped blaming the Church. Some Christians growing up in dysfunctional families go to the extreme, and become atheists. Talk to a Christian parent whose kids are atheists. You will see for yourself what I say is true. It's usually caused by fatherlessness of some sort. The psychology of it is the same as your neurotic prejudice.

You don't have a religious beef with the Catholic Church. You have a psychological beef. If you think its just doctrinal issues, you have no way of explaining why thousands of Protestants, ministers and Bible college professors are becoming Catholic in increasing numbers. Is it because they don't know their Bible?

The Coming Home Network - Discover Catholicism, Come Home

 

[Mungo]

Years ago I was debating with super-moderater Mrs. Slick on the CARM forum. She said that Mary was nothing more than an incubator. I left that forum and never went back.

That's how a lot of Protestants think of Mary, even if they don't admit is publicly.

 

[Mungo]

where do you get that carnal theory.? that's not even Bible every man/woman/child has to com the way of the cross And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.Matthew 1:21 Luke 2:11 For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,

28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,

29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:

30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;

32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.

34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;

35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;

37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

39 And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.


note verse 33 mary or joseph understood.


1 Timothy 2:3-5 King James Version (KJV)
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
i have no idea where you get your scriptures from.. Mary had to b saved the exact same way we do Born again .

Lot's of scripture there - none of it relevant but it looks good.
And typing in BIG emboldened letters make it look important.

lets take your first sentence

where do you get that carnal theory.? that's not even Bible every man/woman/child has to com the way of the cross

What does that mean?
Anything?

Did Moses or David come by the way of the cross?