The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[BreadOfLife]

Well that is one of YOUR LIES, and the Posts REVEAL, I haven't run anywhere, but Answered your ridiculous comments with Rejection.

Why make up lies about other people?
Try to find another way to vent your anger for your claims being rejected.

Glory to God,
Taken

Ummmmmm, simply rejecting a point of view without an alternate point is NOT a valid response. It’s cowardice.

The fact is that after these last 75 or so posts – you simply CANNOT intelligently address Mary’s Biblical, God-given title of “Kecharitomene” (Luke 1:28).

BOTH you and @David Taylor have failed miserably – and I’ve given you BOTH plenty of opportunities to refute this . . .

 

[reformed1689]

BOTH you and @David Taylor have failed miserably – and I’ve given you BOTH plenty of opportunities to refute this . . .

No, we have not failed. You just conjure up something out of thin air and have no proof for it. Nowhere does it say Mary is the Ark of the Covenant. Nowhere does it say she was sinless. These are all teachings of the Catholic church, not found in Scripture.

 

[BreadOfLife]

So you have a works-based salvation then.

Nope – just a proper, BIBLICAL understanding of “Faith”.

Without our cooperation – God’s grace is ineffective in our lives.
This is why Jesus said the following to the inhabitants of Jerusalem:
Matt. 23:37
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, AND YOU WERE NOT WILLING!

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, we have not failed. You just conjure up something out of thin air and have no proof for it. Nowhere does it say Mary is the Ark of the Covenant. Nowhere does it say she was sinless. These are all teachings of the Catholic church, not found in Scripture.

Yet, in post #1213, I presented SEVERAL Scriptural verses that show Mary as the New Ark.

Where is the Scriptural refutation??

 

[Taken]

Ummmmmmm, this is a debate about Mary’s IMMACULATE CONCEPTION.

THere is NO immaculate conception regarding Mary's own birth.

Because you can never just stick to the point or particulate an argument intelligently – you babble on endlessly about “quickened spirits in Heaven, glorified bodies, saved souls, your Docetist Heresy, etc. We weren’t discussing ANY of this.

Nothing I said is not true, but the facts in Scripture bore you.
You simply want to spout out your Catholic Doctrine. You admit your Doctrine is NOT expressly in Scripture. You admit your teaching by Implications is Acceptable Catholic Doctrine.

Look – if you can’t present an intelligent argument against Mary’s title of “Kecharitomene” – or her role as the Ark of the NEW Covenant (Jesus) – just admit it and move on.

Already told you, there is NO Argument.
I can NOT Argue Against your made up "implied" Catholic Doctrine, I can only DISAGREE WITH YOU, because your Doctrine IS NOT IN Scripture, and Showing you Scrpture that Shows your Doctrine is NOT Supported by Scripture ... is of no interest.
You are conditioned to Follow the philosophies of men, rather than What Scripture Says.

Finally, as to your claim that Christ is NOT the New Covenant – you ‘re dead wrong. He embodies EVERY aspect of the New Covenant. He is Salvation itself. The best part is – even if you completely disregard Mary as you do, relegating her as a simple “vessel” (ark) – you are ADMITTING that she is the Ark of the New Covenant . . .

No Jesus is not a Promise...He is the Word of God that delivered a New Promise....and don't forget He is "your HUMAN God"...lol

If I HAD claimed Mary was the Ark...I would have said so. I didn't. So yet again you make up Lies and put your lies off on others.

But then...you can't help yourself to blab away speaking for others. Why do you bother coming to a forum, when you are a master at speaking for yourself and answering for others. LOL. Weird!

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

THere is NO immaculate conception regarding Mary's own birth.
Nothing I said is not true, but the facts in Scripture bore you.
You simply want to spout out your Catholic Doctrine. You admit your Doctrine is NOT expressly in Scripture. You admit your teaching by Implications is Acceptable Catholic Doctrine.

Already told you, there is NO Argument.
I can NOT Argue Against your made up "implied" Catholic Doctrine, I can only DISAGREE WITH YOU, because your Doctrine IS NOT IN Scripture, and Showing you Scrpture that Shows your Doctrine is NOT Supported by Scripture ... is of no interest.
You are conditioned to Follow the philosophies of men, rather than What Scripture Says.
No Jesus is not a Promise...He is the Word of God that delivered a New Promise....and don't forget He is "your HUMAN God"...lol

If I HAD claimed Mary was the Ark...I would have said so. I didn't. So yet again you make up Lies and put your lies off on others.

But then...you can't help yourself to blab away speaking for others. Why do you bother coming to a forum, when you are a master at speaking for yourself and answering for others. LOL. Weird!

Glory to God,
Taken

No – implicit teaching from Scripture is not a “Catholic” thing – but a discipline that is used in ALL denominations of Protestantism as well.

There is not ONE Protestant denomination that believes everything we believe as Christians is explicitly taught on the pages of Scripture. The BIGGEST one is the Trinity – as I have already explained to you.

As for your rejection of the Immaculate conception above – again – it’s just YOUR rejection. You haven’t presented a SINGLE valid argument against it other than “I refuse to believe it!”
Good job . . .

Finally – Jesus didn’t simply “deliver” a promise. He's NOT an errand boy.
He IS the promise because He IS salvation.

 

[reformed1689]

Nope – just a proper, BIBLICAL understanding of “Faith”.

Without our cooperation – God’s grace is ineffective in our lives.
This is why Jesus said the following to the inhabitants of Jerusalem:
Matt. 23:37
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, AND YOU WERE NOT WILLING!

So God is not omnipotent then...

 

[CovenantPromise]

To understand the meaning of FULL OF GRACE -(Kercharitomene) one must understand what the word means .
The Grace of God
The word 'grace' literally means 'favour'
In Hebrew it is CHEN from a root word CHANAN - to bend or stoop in kindness to another as a superior to an inferior (Strongs 2603)
In Greek it is CHARIS and has the idea of graciousness in manner or action (Strongs 5485) it comes from a root word CHAIRO to be cheerful, happy (Strongs 5463)

When used in reference to God, it is the benevolent action of Him stooping down to us in His kindness to reach us in our need, and convey upon us a benefit. His grace has been termed 'unmerited favour' but it is more than an attitude of favour or mercy. His mercy is an expression of His compassion toward us, but His grace is an extension of benevolence translated into action that releases His enabling power into our lives.

Seeing that we never merit His favour, we are always indebted to Him to extend to us His Mercy and bestow upon us His grace whereby we may respond to Him in an acceptable manner. From beginning to end we are dependent upon Him, for life itself, for all sustenance by which we continue to live and have our existence, and on a spiritual level from that, all energizing power by which we progress in our walk.

"In him we live and move and have our being (our existence)" Acts 17:28

 

[reformed1689]

Yet, in post #1213, I presented SEVERAL Scriptural verses that show Mary as the New Ark.

Where is the Scriptural refutation??

No actually you didn't. You showed Scripture and then assumed Mary as the ark.

 

[CovenantPromise]

No actually you didn't. You showed Scripture and then assumed Mary as the ark.

Why would she not be the New Ark of the New and better covenant? Please prove her to not be.

 

[CovenantPromise]

So God is not omnipotent then...

Where does it say in BOL's answer that God is NOT omnipotent?
BOL said:
"Nope – just a proper, BIBLICAL understanding of “Faith”.

Without our cooperation – God’s grace is ineffective in our lives.
This is why Jesus said the following to the inhabitants of Jerusalem:
Matt. 23:37
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, AND YOU WERE NOT WILLING!"
End quote.

om·nip·o·tent
/ˌämˈnipəd(ə)nt

adjective
adjective: omnipotent
(of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything.

For you to imply that his answer denies God's omnipotence is to say , that because evil even exist and has a foothold in the world that means God is not all powerful. I mean you could apply what you suggest , in that way no? So what is BOL actually saying? Some obviously say "YES" to God and some OBVIOUSLY say "NO", right? For grace to be applied it must be accepted by embracing Mercy -Christ and then one receives favor-GRACE. An unmerited one at that. Because we all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God!

 

[reformed1689]

Why would she not be the New Ark of the New and better covenant? Please prove her to not be.

You can't prove a negative.

 

[BreadOfLife]

So God is not omnipotent then...

He absolutely is.
He doesn't FORCE His love on us.

This ic clearly shown by Matt.23:37.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No actually you didn't. You showed Scripture and then assumed Mary as the ark.

Then REFUTE the Scriptural types and fulfillment presented.

CAN you do that?

 

[reformed1689]

Where does it say in BOL's answer that God is NOT omnipotent?
BOL said:
"Nope – just a proper, BIBLICAL understanding of “Faith”.

Without our cooperation – God’s grace is ineffective in our lives.
This is why Jesus said the following to the inhabitants of Jerusalem:
Matt. 23:37
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, AND YOU WERE NOT WILLING!"
End quote.

om·nip·o·tent
/ˌämˈnipəd(ə)nt

adjective
adjective: omnipotent
(of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything.

For you to imply that his answer denies God's omnipotence is to say , that because evil even exist and has a foothold in the world that means God is not all powerful. I mean you could apply what you suggest , in that way no? So what is BOL actually saying? Some obviously say "YES" to God and some OBVIOUSLY say "NO", right? For grace to be applied it must be accepted by embracing Mercy -Christ and then one receives favor-GRACE. An unmerited one at that. Because we all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God!

Perhaps omnipotent was not right word. But it is definitely creating a works based salvation as if salvation is somehow dependent on man rather than the grace of God.

Then REFUTE the Scriptural types and fulfillment presented.

CAN you do that?

I don't need to. Not one of those Scriptures links Mary and the Ark.

 

[CovenantPromise]

THere is NO immaculate conception regarding Mary's own birth.



Nothing I said is not true, but the facts in Scripture bore you.
You simply want to spout out your Catholic Doctrine. You admit your Doctrine is NOT expressly in Scripture. You admit your teaching by Implications is Acceptable Catholic Doctrine.



Already told you, there is NO Argument.
I can NOT Argue Against your made up "implied" Catholic Doctrine, I can only DISAGREE WITH YOU, because your Doctrine IS NOT IN Scripture, and Showing you Scrpture that Shows your Doctrine is NOT Supported by Scripture ... is of no interest.
You are conditioned to Follow the philosophies of men, rather than What Scripture Says.



No Jesus is not a Promise...He is the Word of God that delivered a New Promise....and don't forget He is "your HUMAN God"...lol

If I HAD claimed Mary was the Ark...I would have said so. I didn't. So yet again you make up Lies and put your lies off on others.

But then...you can't help yourself to blab away speaking for others. Why do you bother coming to a forum, when you are a master at speaking for yourself and answering for others. LOL. Weird!

Glory to God,
Taken

Her Immaculate Conception is in the Holy Seed -THE WORD! Her birth took place in the Holy Spirit when the Holy Spirit -(THE ENMITY GENESIS 3:15) was placed between her and the serpent, between his seed (knowledge) and her seed (HER CHILD).
Hebrews 4:11-13
God's Word is Living and Active
11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same pattern of disobedience. 12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It judges the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight; everything is uncovered and exposed before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.…
Clearly Hebrews is not saying that the soul is separated from the Spirit of God. So what spirit is Hebrews addressing ? This is the spirit of the father of lies. Our souls are united in God's Spirit when we are separated (WHEN THE ENMITY IS PLACED BETWEEN US AND satan. ) There is then, a separation which perfects us. Mother Miryam(Mary) had this happen at the Annunciation because she is the Holy Vessel that would birth a kingdom!
At the annunciation she received the WORD- the Holy Seed! That is by which we all have our rebirth. But first an Immaculate Conception of the Word. She was given the designated favor of having her Immaculate Conception and Rebirth spontaneously to her receiving the WORD. She is blessed because she believed the Word and OBEYED! She is the Immaculate Conception because she received in her Virgin Womb the Holy Seed that would free all. She conceived LITERALLY CHRISTIANITY IN HER WOMB. From her is the BIRTH of the faith for all and that is an Immaculate Conception . She is the only person who will EVER HAVE THAT HAPPEN (CONCEIVE CHRIST IN HER WOMB). Our Immaculate conception was in her because we are all born of Christ- who believe. Therefore, she is the mother of all who are ACTUALLY CHRISTIAN! She is our Immaculate Conception! Devotion to her brings us to understanding the heart of the matter! Hence, "MY SOUL MAGNIFIES THE LORD" . Do you think this is for herself alone? No one puts a candle under the measure but upon the mantle that it may SHINE for all those of the House. She gives us great insight to those matters of God. She is the HEART of the Body. We each have a role and purpose. Each member aids the other in sharing gifts. Hers is the gift of being the MOTHER to the HEAD.... THE HEAD! .Which governs the Body and the heart knows HIM well.

 

[reformed1689]

Her Immaculate Conception is in the Holy Seed -THE WORD! Her birth took place in the Holy Spirit when the Holy Spirit -(THE ENMITY GENESIS 3:15) was placed between her and the serpent, between his seed (knowledge) and her seed (HER CHILD).
Hebrews 4:11-13
God's Word is Living and Active
11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same pattern of disobedience. 12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It judges the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight; everything is uncovered and exposed before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.…
Clearly Hebrews is not saying that the soul is separated from the Spirit of God. So what spirit is Hebrews addressing ? This is the spirit of the father of lies. Our souls are united in God's Spirit when we are separated (WHEN THE ENMITY IS PLACED BETWEEN US AND satan. ) There is then, a separation which perfects us. Mother Miryam(Mary) had this happen at the Annunciation because she is the Holy Vessel that would birth a kingdom!
At the annunciation she received the WORD- the Holy Seed! That is by which we all have our rebirth. But first an Immaculate Conception of the Word. She was given the designated favor of having her Immaculate Conception and Rebirth spontaneously to her receiving the WORD. She is blessed because she believed the Word and OBEYED! She is the Immaculate Conception because she received in her Virgin Womb the Holy Seed that would free all. She conceived LITERALLY CHRISTIANITY IN HER WOMB. From her is the BIRTH of the faith for all and that is an Immaculate Conception . She is the only person who will EVER HAVE THAT HAPPEN (CONCEIVE CHRIST IN HER WOMB). Our Immaculate conception was in her because we are all born of Christ- who believe. Therefore, she is the mother of all who are ACTUALLY CHRISTIAN! She is our Immaculate Conception! Devotion to her brings us to understanding the heart of the matter! Hence, "MY SOUL MAGNIFIES THE LORD" . Do you think this is for herself alone? No one puts a candle under the measure but upon the mantle that it may SHINE for all those of the House. She gives us great insight to those matters of God. She is the HEART of the Body. We each have a role and purpose. Each member aids the other in sharing gifts. Hers is the gift of being the MOTHER to the HEAD.... THE HEAD! .Which governs the Body and the heart knows HIM well.

Yeah....no...she is just another human, sinner, saved by grace.

 

[CovenantPromise]

Perhaps omnipotent was not right word. But it is definitely creating a works based salvation as if salvation is somehow dependent on man rather than the grace of God.

I don't need to. Not one of those Scriptures links Mary and the Ark.

Grace is not based on our own merit. That is why it is GRACE. But there is a "YES" to that. I get what you are saying . But Grace is given in saying Yes to Mercy- Christ. We may say YES many , many times because we are incapable of fulfilling the WILL of God on our own. And that is a voluntary action (PRAYER , Fasting IN FAITH ,which seeks to please God to receive more Grace- FAITH AND WORKS .) It is our cooperation THE WILL to abide. Grace aids us in accomplishing His will . Conscious awareness of our desires was given to us at the moment of man's creation. There is always a willingness- (DESIRE) for creation to love its Creator. You would not be in here discussing your faith if you had NO DESIRE to please God. God, works out all the kinks. That is why it is called Grace - it helps us accomplish the good and righteous will of God that those who TRULY love Him desire. So in our faith process there is need- PRAYER , to be better and to continue to run our race and win!

 

[CovenantPromise]

Yeah....no...she is just another human, sinner, saved by grace.

YES saved by GRACE you are right. Let me appeal to your right reason and not your indoctrination: Can one who abides continue in SIN, according to scripture alone? Can one continue in sin if they are born of the Holy seed, according to scripture alone?

 

[Ezra]

Ummmm you are trying to divert.
You denied that the blood of Christ cleanses us from sin.
I showed the scripture to prove you were wrong.

you showed no such thing divert you show the post where i said the blood of Christ does not cleanse us from ALL sins