Revelation 11-the measure of the temple

[101G]

Revelation 11:6 "These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Now we will look at the power these two witness have. The answer is within the scripture itself. A. “have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy”. this is in reference to Elijah. next, “have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues”. this is in reference to Moses. But are they, the two witness, these two men? No, only the similarities to theses two men. We know without a doubt that John the Baptist is one of the witness. TRUTH, by the scriptures, Coming down from the mount of the transfiguration, the Lord’s disciples asked him a question. Scripture, Matthew 17:10-13 "And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist”. BINGO, so John the Baptist is the Elijah/Elias to come, and had already came according to our Lord. Now a question for you, “can the Lord Jesus lie?”. no, of course not. so Elijah had come, which was John the baptist, how did John come as Elijah. Let the scripture speak, Luke 1:17 "And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord”. in the spirit is the ways, or character of Elijah. For John wore a hairy coat, and ate honey locusts. Matthew 3:4 "And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey”. so John was the forerunner to the Lord Jesus as the prophet Elijah, not the person elijah, but in his spirit or ways.this is supportive by the OT prophet, scripture, Malachi 4:5 & 6 "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse” now once again Luke 1:17 "And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord”. these are identical verses. Without a doubt the prophet John is the Elijah to come, that's why the book of Revelation symbolized it this way. Just a couple more scriptures to put the icing on the cake. Mark 1:2 "As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee”. we know that it is the prophet Elijah, who is John the Baptist, but where in the scriptures is this written? Answer, Malachi 3:1 "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts” by now one must began to learn who the witness is?, John the baptist.
I'll hold off for now because there is so much evidence to come.

so from the Lord Jesus own LIPS, "this is the Elijah to come" that seals it for me on who the Elijah is to come... John the Baptist, if the Lord Jesus says so then that is what I believe.

PICJAG.

 

[101G]

The Lord Jesus and Moses.
Here are some compiled similarities between the Lord Jesus the Christ and the prophet Moses, for our edification.
1. both have a close relationship with God. Moses a face to face Physical (human) meeting. Jesus a
Spiritual Face to face. John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the
bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

2. both were ordained by God to deliver his people from bondage. Moses Physical bondage, the Lord Jesus
Spiritual bondage. (this is where the unitarian fail at).

3. both Moses and the Lord Jesus were saved from certain death when they were small children, while most
other Israelite male children of the same age and place of birth were murdered. pharaoh, the male babies, in Egypt, and Herod in Israel, see Mathew chapter 2.

4. both the Lord Jesus and Moses refused the possibility to become rulers in their age. Satan offered Jesus the
rule over the kingdoms of this world (Matthew 4:8-9), but Jesus rejected that offer and chose to suffer and die
for the sake of the people of the world. Moses acted in a similar manner; he had been raised as a son in a royal
family, and he could have had a lavish lifestyle, but he chose differently. he suffered for the people sake.

5. both the Lord Jesus and Moses were "called out of Egypt".

6. both Moses and the Lord Jesus interceded for Israel, not allowing the destruction of the nation

7. both the Lord Jesus and Moses "mediated" between Israel, (now the church), and the true God.

8. both the Lord Jesus and Moses were Lawgivers. Moses the carnal Law of Stone. Jesus the Spiritual Law of the
heart.

9. both had water connections. Moses, The Nile (water) into blood/red. Jesus, the wedding at cana, Water into wine/red

10. both died, and no man knows where their GRAVE are.

11. both had "Birth" mothers but both was foster by another who was not their mother. Moses, daughter of Pharaoh, the Lord
Jesus, Mary.

12. both talked to God on mountains tops.

this is just a few, their are many more. By now one should have the understanding of who the two witness are.

Conclusion: the two witness are the Lord Jesus and John the Baptist. The Gospel, and Baptism are still in the earth witnessing even today.

PICJAG.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Through faith in Christ, it is WE who are "acceptable" to the Father!
I am not trying re-write scripture here, but rather to show where the emphasis is applied in that verse.
I think that the emphasis of the word "acceptable", is on the words: "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood,....
.
Therefore, if you will,
we can read that scripture in the following way, which sounds more sensible:
"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ, to offer up spiritual sacrifices.

that is what I was asking about this future temple ...if the above is what is acceptable to God by Jesus Christ...why do so many call a future temple in Jerusalem other than His body offering up spiritual sacrifices ...The temple of God?

 

[Waiting on him]

that is what I was asking about this future temple ...if the above is what is acceptable to God by Jesus Christ...why do so many call a future temple in Jerusalem other than His body offering up spiritual sacrifices ...The temple of God?

Simply because they bought the left behind series and now they parrot what man has to say.

 

[Helen]

"— Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? It is as high as heaven, what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?"

"We speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory."
—" The mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: to the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known, by the church, the manifold wisdom of God."

"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."
— "The wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy."

‑Job 11:7,8. I Cor. 2:7. ‑Eph. 3:9,10. Jas. 1:5. Jas. 3:17.

.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Yes, the answers are there. But, they are not always the same one for every situation in all of our eyes. Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell all his possessions.... yet He told Judas to back off complaining about Mary pouring perfume worth a year's wages on His feet.

consider maybe “go sell all your possessions” doesn’t contradict the woman but harmonizes with. it’s a lot and I’m not asking you to agree only consider John 12:5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
Ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor...would appear like a good humanitarian sacrifice to give to the poor but only temporary. that which the money had purchased would be digested and the poor would still be hungry. Same as the devil tempted Jesus Christ to turn “this stone into bread” to feed his own hunger, yet God did turn the chief corner stone into bread to feed many multiplying The bread of Life across all generations.

The “her wages” on His feet...the wages of sin is death...John 12:7-8 Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this. [8] For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.

He is what feeds the hungry. (Matthew 5:6) John 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

Was hers not a Spiritual work? Did she not recognize whose feet His were...for His great name sake she gave her “wages”, caring more for the hungry than the one who “was a thief” “had the bag and bare what was put therein.”

“Go sell all your possessions” Luke 12:33-34 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. [34] For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Did the woman not recognize Him and give alms and provide bags which wax not old, a treasure in Heavens, that fail not...Giving to the poor of a better, more costly ointment to see with, Christ. Mark 14:8-9 She hath done what she could: she is come aforehand to anoint my body to the burying. [9] Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world, this also that she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her. Acts 10:4

 

[Heart2Soul]

I don't think I mentioned the Rapture... but that is fine.

I believe you will find you will have to come to one or the others view of (Revelation). Either that of the dispensational view or the amillennial.

The commentaries you use will affect your view. There is no getting away from it. If you know already what view you lean to, then it doesn't matter. You get the commentary that supports your view. But if you don't know, I would study both. Because the commentaries will espouse one of those views.

Stranger

Sorry for the late response but I had to go do some family things. .....
First and foremost please let me suggest that no one has to commit to any views pertaining scripture...they only need to submit to what the Holy Spirit reveals to you.

I am not into labels....I am a simple believer of God's Word and though I don't fully understand it in its completeness the beliefs I hold to are due to what I have received from the Holy Spirit. Things I was taught growing up in church were "milk" and as I began to seek a deeper understanding through prayer and studying scripture for myself I came to realize some of that teaching was in err of the truth.

Many of the pastors of the churches I attended quoted 1 scripture from the Bible and the rest of the sermon contained his interpretations and personal opinions on it.

So when I studied for myself I found that while reading the entire chapter containing that verse he preached on it did not even come close to what the pastor presented to the congregation.

It is my belief that we must reason TOGETHER what the scriptures are saying and consider if there is any evidence of error in our interpretation of it.

That's difficult to do when there is one person preaching and everyone else is listening......or sleeping...lol...and you hear an "Amen" once in awhile from someone in the congregation.
As a child I believed a pastor was right next to Jesus as far as holy and righteous and could not possibly err in preaching the Word...I was very mistaken...

Anyway, back to Revelation, who can fully understand it's meaning except the Holy Spirit open your eyes to see?
What I have come to believe so far was not taught to me by man....I received it from the Holy Spirit.
Who is the author and finisher of my faith....

Does that help you understand better where I am coming from?
I am always happy to answer any questions and discuss any topics....and who knows...you may teach me something I have not seen yet.

 

[Heart2Soul]

@Heart2Soul if my posting is 'off centre' just say...not trying to derail your study ..honest

@101G

So, just interested , it sounds a but as if you believe that 'everyone' who is eventually saved will be in the Bride company ?

I don't find that the bible shows this at all. Even within what is described about heaven..we have Archangels , angels , seraphim's , cherubim's etc etc.. By what I read, and in study of the tabernacle ( which @amadeus mention well) ..we have the High priest and Moses ( group) which could go in and out of the Holy of Holy's , and then the priests that served in the Holy Place... . and those who served in the outer court , and then the 'rest of Israel ' who were outside the tabernacle ....

Just saying...no, I do not believe at all that everyone will be in Union and dwell in the wedding chamber. Just as we see the picture of the talents and the different levels of accountability...and responsibility.

But I say again, maybe this is not for this particular thread.

Oh. edit, forgot to say...everything in the word is in picture form ...and types-of
...God knows our little brains can't grasp the fullness of the heavenly realm and its workings..

Blessings...Helen

No worries, sister, it happens on every thread. And it is all related to His Truth so it fits just fine.
God Bless!

 

[Heart2Soul]

I don't think I mentioned the Rapture... but that is fine.

I believe you will find you will have to come to one or the others view of (Revelation). Either that of the dispensational view or the amillennial.

The commentaries you use will affect your view. There is no getting away from it. If you know already what view you lean to, then it doesn't matter. You get the commentary that supports your view. But if you don't know, I would study both. Because the commentaries will espouse one of those views.

Stranger

Ooops....I just caught this....no you didn't mention the rapture...but in my ignorance of what dispensational or amillennials believe I just assumed they were either pre-tribbers or post-tribbers....lol....and guess what...I still don't have a clue what either of those two are all about.

 

[Stranger]

Studying BOTH is something I believe whole-heartedly in.

And even though we hold to one side, we will always be studying both because the other side is always contending.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Sorry for the late response but I had to go do some family things. .....
First and foremost please let me suggest that no one has to commit to any views pertaining scripture...they only need to submit to what the Holy Spirit reveals to you.

I am not into labels....I am a simple believer of God's Word and though I don't fully understand it in its completeness the beliefs I hold to are due to what I have received from the Holy Spirit. Things I was taught growing up in church were "milk" and as I began to seek a deeper understanding through prayer and studying scripture for myself I came to realize some of that teaching was in err of the truth.

Many of the pastors of the churches I attended quoted 1 scripture from the Bible and the rest of the sermon contained his interpretations and personal opinions on it.

So when I studied for myself I found that while reading the entire chapter containing that verse he preached on it did not even come close to what the pastor presented to the congregation.

It is my belief that we must reason TOGETHER what the scriptures are saying and consider if there is any evidence of error in our interpretation of it.

That's difficult to do when there is one person preaching and everyone else is listening......or sleeping...lol...and you hear an "Amen" once in awhile from someone in the congregation.
As a child I believed a pastor was right next to Jesus as far as holy and righteous and could not possibly err in preaching the Word...I was very mistaken...

Anyway, back to Revelation, who can fully understand it's meaning except the Holy Spirit open your eyes to see?
What I have come to believe so far was not taught to me by man....I received it from the Holy Spirit.
Who is the author and finisher of my faith....

Does that help you understand better where I am coming from?
I am always happy to answer any questions and discuss any topics....and who knows...you may teach me something I have not seen yet.

I understand. I certainly encourage you in your study of the Bible and am glad you are studying it. I'm sure the Holy Spirit will direct you, as you say he has always done.

I know what you mean about 'labels'. But...as you grow in knowledge of the Bible it is impossible to not identify with a label. Why? Because Christians who have gone before us wrestled with these same things. This is why I said the commentators will come from a certain view. And in their life they may even change their view.

And, just like the pastor you spoke of who took a verse out of context and you found that it wasn't saying that, so you also will begin leaning to one side of the interpretation of (Revelation) as opposed to the other. Meaning you will find yourself either in the dispensational or amillennial camp. My point is, that is not bad. We cannot avoid labels.

For example: 1.) Christian....non-Christian 2.) Protestant....Romanist 3.)Conservative Christian....liberal Christian 4.) Cessationist...non-Cessationist. 5.) Amill...Premill 6.) Dispensational....Covenant theology 7.) literal interpretation....Symbolic or allegorical interpretation

Yes, we should never elevate too much the pastor or preacher. This is a learned thing just as you have. Teaching the Bible in front of God's people is a dangerous thing. It is the teachers responsibility to make sure he is not elevated by those he teaches. Many fail in this as pride is hard to control.

Yes, none can understand (Revelation) without the Holy Spirit. And a great blessing is to those who read and study this book. (Rev.1:3) I believe it is the only book with such a blessing spoken of.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Ooops....I just caught this....no you didn't mention the rapture...but in my ignorance of what dispensational or amillennials believe I just assumed they were either pre-tribbers or post-tribbers....lol....and guess what...I still don't have a clue what either of those two are all about.

You are correct that the Rapture will be held by a certain group as opposed to the other. But that itself is either accepted or rejected based on those labels I gave in post #(111). I didn't use 'Rapture' as it is such a lightning rod to many to discount anything one says after that.

Stranger

 

[Heart2Soul]

I understand. I certainly encourage you in your study of the Bible and am glad you are studying it. I'm sure the Holy Spirit will direct you, as you say he has always done.

I know what you mean about 'labels'. But...as you grow in knowledge of the Bible it is impossible to not identify with a label. Why? Because Christians who have gone before us wrestled with these same things. This is why I said the commentators will come from a certain view. And in their life they may even change their view.

And, just like the pastor you spoke of who took a verse out of context and you found that it wasn't saying that, so you also will begin leaning to one side of the interpretation of (Revelation) as opposed to the other. Meaning you will find yourself either in the dispensational or amillennial camp. My point is, that is not bad. We cannot avoid labels.

For example: 1.) Christian....non-Christian 2.) Protestant....Romanist 3.)Conservative Christian....liberal Christian 4.) Cessationist...non-Cessationist. 5.) Amill...Premill 6.) Dispensational....Covenant theology 7.) literal interpretation....Symbolic or allegorical interpretation

Yes, we should never elevate too much the pastor or preacher. This is a learned thing just as you have. Teaching the Bible in front of God's people is a dangerous thing. It is the teachers responsibility to make sure he is not elevated by those he teaches. Many fail in this as pride is hard to control.

Yes, none can understand (Revelation) without the Holy Spirit. And a great blessing is to those who read and study this book. (Rev.1:3) I believe it is the only book with such a blessing spoken of.

Stranger

Amen to all the above....how wonderfully gentle your spirit is in this...I felt the anointing of the Holy Spirit in your words...that's rare on these forums for me to feel His presence in a post.
God Bless!

 

[Heart2Soul]

I understand. I certainly encourage you in your study of the Bible and am glad you are studying it. I'm sure the Holy Spirit will direct you, as you say he has always done.

I know what you mean about 'labels'. But...as you grow in knowledge of the Bible it is impossible to not identify with a label. Why? Because Christians who have gone before us wrestled with these same things. This is why I said the commentators will come from a certain view. And in their life they may even change their view.

And, just like the pastor you spoke of who took a verse out of context and you found that it wasn't saying that, so you also will begin leaning to one side of the interpretation of (Revelation) as opposed to the other. Meaning you will find yourself either in the dispensational or amillennial camp. My point is, that is not bad. We cannot avoid labels.

For example: 1.) Christian....non-Christian 2.) Protestant....Romanist 3.)Conservative Christian....liberal Christian 4.) Cessationist...non-Cessationist. 5.) Amill...Premill 6.) Dispensational....Covenant theology 7.) literal interpretation....Symbolic or allegorical interpretation

Yes, we should never elevate too much the pastor or preacher. This is a learned thing just as you have. Teaching the Bible in front of God's people is a dangerous thing. It is the teachers responsibility to make sure he is not elevated by those he teaches. Many fail in this as pride is hard to control.

Yes, none can understand (Revelation) without the Holy Spirit. And a great blessing is to those who read and study this book. (Rev.1:3) I believe it is the only book with such a blessing spoken of.

Stranger

Well, technically, people have to have a way for others to identify their life....so I understand completely what you mean by this....so what would you say I am...amillennial or dispensationalists based off what I present on these forums?
Correct on using commentators to justify my point of view....honestly I use their comments at times because I am being lazy and when i find one that is already written that expresses my point of view then that's the one I use. So you are absolutely correct....
I may refrain using anyone's comments in the future...good point...thanks.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You are correct that the Rapture will be held by a certain group as opposed to the other. But that itself is either accepted or rejected based on those labels I gave in post #(111). I didn't use 'Rapture' as it is such a lightning rod to many to discount anything one says after that.

Stranger

It is a lightning rod. I usually say: our gathering together, instead, because that is what my translation says.

Some believe our gathering together will come suddenly and when we least expect it and some believe we can know the day by watching the events of rev unfold.

And strangely, both are true for different men. (From what I read).

What really dumbfounds me is how God makes things repeat that you almost think would be impossible. For instance, they did not know Jesus would come twice. Now we do not know He will again come twice, once for our gathering and again in wrath.

Also, there is a strange repeat about the controversy of their day over how the scriptures could seem to have Him coming from 3 different places (Egypt, Nazareth, Bethlehem), and yet it worked out that way. And once again, scripture seems to describe Him coming from...3 different places, one of which is from Bozrah.
Who is this who comes from Edom, from the city of Bozrah, with his clothing stained red? Who is this in royal robes, marching in his great strength? “It is I, the Lord, announcing your salvation! It is I, the Lord, who has the power to save!” Is 63:1

 

[Stranger]

Well, technically, people have to have a way for others to identify their life....so I understand completely what you mean by this....so what would you say I am...amillennial or dispensationalists based off what I present on these forums?
Correct on using commentators to justify my point of view....honestly I use their comments at times because I am being lazy and when i find one that is already written that expresses my point of view then that's the one I use. So you are absolutely correct....
I may refrain using anyone's comments in the future...good point...thanks.

I haven't been here that much lately so don't recall your position on things. This is why I wondered what commentaries you are using. If I know the author, then I can usually know if he is amill or dispensational. Matt. Henry goes pretty far back so that it is not as easy to declare. But I believe he would be amillennial, though he may not claim it in his works.

I have no problem using commentaries at all. I use them all the time. And you should also. I am not discouraging anyone from using them. I encourage everyone to use them. I am just saying they will come from a certain position that I mentioned.

If I find a complete commentary on the Bible, but I am not familiar with the author, I go to his remarks in (Rom. 9-11) concerning Israel. Does he believe Israel is Israel? Or does he believe Israel and the Church are the same. If he says Israel is Israel, then most likely he is dispensational. If he says Israel and the Church are the same, most likely he is Covenant theologian or Amill. This in turn means, because I am dispensational, I would not agree with his teaching on the book of Revelation, as well as the Old Testament prophetical books.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Amen to all the above....how wonderfully gentle your spirit is in this...I felt the anointing of the Holy Spirit in your words...that's rare on these forums for me to feel His presence in a post.
God Bless!

Appreciate your encouraging words.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

It is a lightning rod. I usually say: our gathering together, instead, because that is what my translation says.

Some believe our gathering together will come suddenly and when we least expect it and some believe we can know the day by watching the events of rev unfold.

And strangely, both are true for different men. (From what I read).

What really dumbfounds me is how God makes things repeat that you almost think would be impossible. For instance, they did not know Jesus would come twice. Now we do not know He will again come twice, once for our gathering and again in wrath.

Also, there is a strange repeat about the controversy of their day over how the scriptures could seem to have Him coming from 3 different places (Egypt, Nazareth, Bethlehem), and yet it worked out that way. And once again, scripture seems to describe Him coming from...3 different places, one of which is from Bozrah.
Who is this who comes from Edom, from the city of Bozrah, with his clothing stained red? Who is this in royal robes, marching in his great strength? “It is I, the Lord, announcing your salvation! It is I, the Lord, who has the power to save!” Is 63:1

It certainly is and I am always surprised by it. The same is true with dispensational teaching. Those who disagree with it, have an extreme bitterness against it as though it is a cult, which some have called it.

Yes, (Is. 63:1-6) speaks to His second coming. It is a favorite section of Scriptures for me. Christ is setting everything right. It is the day of His vengeance. The blood that stains his clothing at that time will not be His. It will be that of the nations who have rejected Him. Great set of verses.

Stranger

 

[Willie T]

And even though we hold to one side, we will always be studying both because the other side is always contending.

Stranger

And it is also good not to get caught in the trap of believing only WE can be right. That is a sickness all people seem to fall victim to.

 

[Earburner]

that is what I was asking about this future temple ...if the above is what is acceptable to God by Jesus Christ...why do so many call a future temple in Jerusalem other than His body offering up spiritual sacrifices ...The temple of God?

They are driven by the misconception called "Pre-millennial thinking". All of such that believe in that manner, formulate and fabricate many theories of Christ's Return from Heaven, being two or even three times, for different purposes.
To their own fault, they have not discerned the completeness and end of the Old Covenant, by the immediacy of the New Covenant with Christ.

As a result, they are blending the promises that God made to physical Israel, with that of Christ's church, not knowing that Christ Himself is the fulfilment of the Old Covenant.

In the day that Christ said that
the KoG was going to be taken away from the nation of Israel, and given to a nation (of born again christians), all the promises specifically made to Israel, became null and void, being completely dysfunctional. Matthew 21:43

Premillennialism - Wikipedia