What Mormons Believe--according to a Former BYU Professor

[amadeus]

Ya. the alerts do not work all the time.

This I know! I have encounter posts over a long period of time where I should have been alerted but wasn't. I always respond to any alerts before looking at any other posts. I don't know enough about the system to understand the "why" of it.

 

[Nancy]

Hello Mary! It has been a long while since we have spoken together here. Since you tagged me as well I guess you won't mind me posting a few words?

You call it "your truth" as if it belonged to @Enoch111 or to me or to any one of the individuals you named on this post. Jesus made it a bit clearer than that when He simply said:

"...I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

So yes then if we agree that Jesus is truth, we are in agreement on that one thing at least.

But then you, if memory serves me right on this, have effectively said that the one verse cited on this thread as being directed to all of us who read it [John 14:26] was actually only directed to the Apostles and therefore we were wrong to presume or state that is applies to us.

But... would you deny that we [the non-Catholics] are to somehow know Jesus? And then in knowing Jesus, to the extent that any of us do, we would then to that extent know the Truth? Would you say that we could not then stand on what Jesus said here because he was speaking only to those Jews which believed on him here as well?

"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32

Can anyone other than those Jews standing there know Jesus and be made free?

So then does that include you since you are not a Jew and were not standing there? Can you not know Jesus? Can none of us, [Catholic or Not], know Jesus? Can none of us, [Catholic or Not], know the Truth, which is Him?

Was His promise then only to born in the flesh Jews? Or do you definitely make a distinction between what was spoken to the Jew and what was spoken to the [12] Apostles? What of the gentiles?

Can no person, not of pure Jewish blood [carnal blood] claim any of the promises that according to the gospels came out of Jesus' mouth?

What of this Samaritan woman who was at best of mixed Jewish and gentile blood and the words Jesus spoke to her?

"Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water." John 4:10

If we [Jew or Catholic or non-Catholic or gentile] know the gift of God and know who He, [Jesus], is, could we not similarly ask of him and he would give us "living water"? He did not say, 'ask of my Apostles' or 'ask of my designated priests' or 'ask of my anointed men of God' or 'ask of those within some particular church or church group' did He?

But then that woman apparently di have a measure of the blood of Jacob in her veins. She was at least in part, a Jew.

Consider rather then a Roman centurion likely not having a drop of the blood of Jacob in him:

"And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him." Matt 8:6-7

Why did Jesus offer and then give to this man what he had asked?

"When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel." Matt 8:10

"And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour." Matt 8:13

Could we not today come to Jesus in the same manner with a similar great faith like this Roman Centurion gentile and would He do it also unto us...? Or would it be necessary to go to an anointed Apostle or priest of the Church to act as an intermediary in order to get the attention of Jesus in order to receive as the Roman gentile received?

As to the different truths you want to apply to each of the believers you name here on this forum and elsewhere, why do you presume we should all agree absolutely in every detail in the truth we each have come to know?

Remembering that once long ago I was a practicing Catholic, do all Catholics agree absolutely in every detail of the truth that they have come to know? Does even every ordained Catholic priest agree in every detail of the truth with every other Catholic priest? The answer, of course to each of my questions is, No! In this respect the Catholics are very similar to the non-Catholics [no matter which denomination, if any, to which they belong].

One reason for the differences between groups and individuals, [which I know I have explained to you before], is that people who have the Holy Spirit in them do quench the Holy Spirit, at times, mixing the Truth with whatever else they have. You know that Catholics do the same thing.

Even if your church had or has all of the Truth [which I certainly do not believe and I doubt that you do] not everyone in your church agrees on what that truth is. They can say with all of non-Catholic believers that Jesus is Truth, but who knows Jesus well enough to see His face clearly now? Consider Apostle Pauls written words on this:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12
The Apostle Paul certainly included himself in that "we" that we which "now" was seeing "through a glass, darkly". Each of us, you and I and those others you named, do see Jesus, but who sees him "face to face" clearly in every moment of their walk with Him now? What we see translates in one way into what we understand. All of us who are on the highway of holiness are at different places on that road seeing partially in accord with what we already believe the totality of Truth, that is of Jesus, is. You too have a less than perfect vision. The vision is necessary as Solomon wrote of it 3000 years ago:

"Where there is no vision, the people perish..." Prov 29:18

……….
Sooooo, once again: Who decides what is a lie and what is the Truth of Scripture?
Bible study Mary

I've answered this question for you before as have others on this forum. You disagree with the answers of any not claiming Catholicism [and probably of some Catholics too] but you keep on asking... Well you are allowed to do that as we are allowed to remain apart from you on any answers.

God alone decides!

In each of us in whom the Holy Spirit dwells He sifts through the incoming data to the extent we allow it in order to express to us: the Truth. Since each of us has different needs [determined by God] and each of us [except any who have already overcome as Jesus did] does quench the Holy Spirit some of time in some measure, a great variety of answers are expressed. You will say that your church has only one answer, but without trying to disprove that, I nevertheless doubt it and I doubt you could provide any rationale or any absolute proof that would change
any the hearts and minds here.

According to what is written, we, all of us [you also included in the "us"], do still live by faith. If I deny my faith or you deny your faith, what is it that we have of truth? God knows!

"For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." Rom 1:17

"Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith." Habakkuk 2:4[/QUOTE]

Good One John.
These verses tells me that Jesus wanted all to know what He taught:
"19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Matthew 28:19-20

 

[Nancy]

Ya. the alerts do not work all the time.

I have given up on the Alerts as I do not get more than I do!

 

[brakelite]

I came that conclusion by believing the Church spoken of in Scripture. How did you come to that conclusion?

Who decides what "basic doctrine" is? Don't we have to believe EVERTHING Jesus taught?

You contradict yourself here. Either you accept Jesus and His authority for your faith and practice, or you accept the church as your authority. In one place you edit the church as final authority and claim you obey the church only because the church... Your church... Has all the truth, then you claim above that all Christians must obey Jesus and His teachings... All His teachings. No wonder you are confused.

Each individual Christian is NOT being spoken to by the Spirit and given the true interpretation of Scripture by the Spirit.

I disagree. If they are true Christians, they are so only because they have been spoken to by the holy Spirit. That applies to wherever they are, and whoever they are. Membership of a church does not constitute one being a Christian... Conversion comes only from above through the power and operation of the Spirit in the life of the individual.

I am not taking it personal. I am just trying to adhere to Scripture

Again, you reveal your confusion. Either you adhere to scripture as your authority, or your church. It cannot be both, unless both agree. And when the church doesn't agree with scripture, as happened in the apostasy beginning in the 3rd century and continues to this day, then it is incumbent upon Christians to vacate the premises and take up residence elsewhere for the sake of self preservation of nothing else.

I accept a different authority than you. I accept the Church, which is the pillar and foundation of truth, as that authority

Yet immediately above you say you are quote, "trying to adhere to scripture".

It takes man to interpret Gods word since it doesn't interpret itself.

And that Mary borders on blasphemy and calling Jesus a liar. Who is the Word? Who does the holy Spirit belong to? Who inspired the prophets and apostles?
Next you will be claiming that only Catholics are Christians because only Catholics have the holy Spirit and only Catholics have the truth. Oh wait....

 

[Marymog]

Very good! Possibly the best one since our own children were still at home with us. Our youngest just turned 45, that's been a long time ago.

Hopefully yours was good as well.

Thank you. My Christmas was good also. The kids came over Christmas day and we opened presents, ate, visited, ate again etc. The day after Christmas we went an a 4 day vacation. Very nice, relaxing.

WOW....youngest is 45!! Many years until my children make it to that age.

Respectfully, Mary

 

[Marymog]

Well since I have not been appointed by God as anyone's judge, what do you think? ......How does a person do as the verse says, "continue in His Word."?

Thank you.

To answer your questions I will quote Scripture: On this rock, I will build My Church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it....

If the member refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if the offender refuses to listen even to the church, let such a one be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.....whatever you (the leaders of the Church) bind on earth will be bound in heaven....you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

I agree with you! You nor I have been appointed as judge, the Church has! So it is the Church who decides if you or me or Enoch is continuing in His word. If we continue in His word, according to what the Church binds us to, it makes us His disciple. It is the Church who decides which interpretation is correct!

Bible Study Mary

 

[Marymog]

Remember when one fellow came to Jesus asking for his judgment in a matter?

"And one of the company said unto him, Master, speak to my brother, that he divide the inheritance with me.
And he said unto him, Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you?" Luke 12:13-14

Same for me. I, of course, must judge things for myself ultimately, but as a follower of Christ, should not I and every other follower of Him pay attention to the way he did things and to the ways he suggested or commanded or provided and go on from there?

Hi Amadeus,

Yes! We should "pay attention to the way he did things and to the ways he suggested or commanded or provided"! In that passage you referenced (Luke 12:13-14) Jesus was telling the person that he is not a judge of civil affairs. If you look at the next verse (vs15) He says, “Take care! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; for one’s life does not consist in the abundance of possessions .

So putting that passage IN CONTEXT here is the way Jesus did things. Jesus was telling the person that he is not a judge over civil matters (where should the inheritance go) but He is a judge over moral matters; greed and abundance of possession's. Titus 3:1, 1 Peter 2:13-17, Romans 13:1 tell us how we should handle the civil matter (inheritance) in Luke 12:13-14 that you referenced. The Church decides the moral matters.

Hope that helps....Mary

 

[Marymog]

As for these others you specifically ask about, is it not between each of them and God? Should we be deciding for another person how he is to follow the Lord? If someone asked me for help and an answer was in me and and God did not hinder it in some way, then I would do what I could in accord with His will... Do we always know His will?

Hi,

Do you think the elders of the Branch Davidians and Westboro Baptist Church and United Methodist Church and many other church elders of different churches have done His will?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

I do believe that it is directed to every one who is seeking His face. I brought it up as I was hoping you would explain why anyone would not believe that? David wrote of being told to seek His face and then proceeded to do so:

Thank you.

You HONESTLY believe that EVERY Christian has the Holy Spirit teaching them in all things and that the Spirit will bring to EVERY Christian into remembrance of all that He said? (ref John 14:26) YOUR interpretation of that passage is that Jesus really meant EVERY CHRISTIAN from 33AD to eternity??

Even though Jesus was speaking DIRECTLY to the Apostles and said that the Spirit will teach you everything, and remind you of all that I have said to you.

Putting your interpretation (theory) of that passage into practice I can't figure out why YOU don't listen to ME when I tell you the proper interpretation of Scripture? After all, the Holy Spirit has taught me everything and you have previously admitted that you are not always guided by the Spirit.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Also you were seemingly hinting that I stood in favor of OSAS. You'd be wrong to believe that.

I was not hinting that you stood in favor of OSAS.

 

[Marymog]

@Marymog
I was tagging you here just in case you failed to receive an alert. I did spend some time writings several posts for you on this past Friday, 01-10-2020 starting with my post #1635. I don't expect to change your mind on things, but at least try to understand where I am and where I am not. Thanks! May God richly bless you as you search for more of His Truth.

Thank you Amadeus.

Unlike you I am not in search for more of His Truth. I have found the Truth in the Church which is the pillar and foundation of Truth and has the authority to decide who is to be treated as a pagan or tax collector.....just like Scripture says.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

You contradict yourself here. Either you accept Jesus and His authority for your faith and practice, or you accept the church as your authority. In one place you edit the church as final authority and claim you obey the church only because the church... Your church... Has all the truth, then you claim above that all Christians must obey Jesus and His teachings... All His teachings. No wonder you are confused....

No contradiction on my part sir.

I accept the Church that Jesus started which has the authority given to it by Jesus in Matthew 18:17-18 and is the pillar and foundation of truth....Just like Scripture says. You reject the teachings of Scripture and accept YOU as authority.

If it is not The Church that has the authority to teach us what me MUST OBEY then who does have that authority?

Curious Mary

 

[amadeus]

Thank you.

To answer your questions I will quote Scripture: On this rock, I will build My Church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it....

If the member refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if the offender refuses to listen even to the church, let such a one be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.....whatever you (the leaders of the Church) bind on earth will be bound in heaven....you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

Yes, indeed, tell it to the Church, which is the Body of Christ, which is everyone of one of us fitted in as a functioning member of that Body:

"For the body is not one member, but many." I Cor 12:14

"Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular." I Cor 12:27

"And he [the Lord, Jesus] is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." Col 1:18

"Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:" Col 1:24

I can fill in some blanks here as I know you have already done with your above words. You probably use what are contained in the oral/written traditions/doctrines/dogmas/etc. of what you call the Church, while I can only speak from what I have heard from God directly or through others as they were given what to speak through the Holy Spirit. You might deny that what I heard was from God especially if it did not agree with what you believe. The reverse might also be true.

By the verses I cited above and others I do see an established Church or a Church in the process of being established, but I do not see it as being precisely equal to the Catholic Church of which you are a formal member. I do see that some Catholics might be included in the Church I see. But even in your Church do I or I could I and other non-Catholics qualify under your provision called "invincible ignorance"? Ah, but perhaps because I was baptized as a Catholic at the age of six years and practiced as a Catholic until age 18 I am a different case altogether. Fortunately, it is ultimately God has all of the facts who reviews each case and makes any final decisions.

Would not any decisions made under that 'tell it to the Church verse' be for the here and now of the local church group led by men rather than automatically in every case being rubber stamped by God as the final judgment against an accused person? Would it not be comparable the moderators on this forum banning a member for breaking their rules? The moderators decision to ban would not preclude God from forgiving that person upon his making any necessary repentance even though he was never reinstated here.

I agree with you! You nor I have been appointed as judge, the Church has! So it is the Church who decides if you or me or Enoch is continuing in His word. If we continue in His word, according to what the Church binds us to, it makes us His disciple. It is the Church who decides which interpretation is correct!

Rather the correct interpretation comes from God for is not He the interpreter? Jesus spoke to the people in parables and when his followers needed an interpretation he was the one to give it [Matt 15:16-20], was he not? At that time, being here in the flesh, Jesus was the Light of the world [John 8:12]. But He went to his Father so now are we not to be the Light of the world [Matt 5:14] enabled through the power of the Holy Spirit to witness [Acts 1:8] and to interpret as the Spirit gives us the words to do so...?

 

[amadeus]

So putting that passage IN CONTEXT here is the way Jesus did things. Jesus was telling the person that he is not a judge over civil matters (where should the inheritance go) but He is a judge over moral matters; greed and abundance of possession's. Titus 3:1, 1 Peter 2:13-17, Romans 13:1 tell us how we should handle the civil matter (inheritance) in Luke 12:13-14 that you referenced. The Church decides the moral matters.

Hope that helps....Mary

Again I believe that the local church group should be able to render judgments for or against a member as it affects that assembly or other connected and concerned parties, but that is not a final irrevocable ruling binding on God unless God agrees with it absolutely. [Can we know that now?] Men can and do use what is written, unwittingly, or on purpose, as in the condemnation of Naboth by Ahab and Jezebel [I Kings 21], to accomplish things definitely contrary to God's will. It is and must be that ultimately God is the only One we always trust who renders any final judgment against a person. We can have confidence in men but because they are fallible, it is necessarily a limited trust. Any man, no matter what position he holds in any church group is still fallible. For this reason his authority is also limited. Apostle Paul confirmed as much here:

"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." I Cor 11:1

 

[amadeus]

Hi,

Do you think the elders of the Branch Davidians and Westboro Baptist Church and United Methodist Church and many other church elders of different churches have done His will?

Curious Mary

I have never belonged to any of those groups, so what do I know other than what I have heard from other men? I have heard some things that sound wrong or evil to me, but it comes back to God who really knows the facts regarding each person to be the only proper judge.

"Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again" Matt 7:1-2


We may need to make judgements as what we will or will not do because one of those groups somehow really affects our own walk with God, but then is when we must lean heavily of God so that we do it the way he would want us to do it:

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." Prov 3:5-7

 

[Marymog]

Yes, indeed, tell it to the Church, which is the Body of Christ, which is everyone of one of us fitted in as a functioning member of that Body:

Hey Amadeus,

If the Church is "everyone of us" then which ONE of us is the pillar and foundation of truth and which ONE of us do we go to that has the authority to call the other a pagan/tax collector?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

Rather the correct interpretation comes from God for is not He the interpreter? Jesus spoke to the people in parables and when his followers needed an interpretation he was the one to give it [Matt 15:16-20], was he not? At that time, being here in the flesh, Jesus was the Light of the world [John 8:12]. But He went to his Father so now are we not to be the Light of the world [Matt 5:14] enabled through the power of the Holy Spirit to witness [Acts 1:8] and to interpret as the Spirit gives us the words to do so...?

If your theory is true, that "the correct interpretation comes from God", then to whom did He give the correct interpretation? After all your interpretation is different then the CC, Methodist Church, Baptist Church, Billy Graham, Mohammad etc. ?

Can you see how your theory doesn't work?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Again I believe that the local church group should be able to render judgments for or against a member as it affects that assembly or other connected and concerned parties, but that is not a final irrevocable ruling binding on God unless God agrees with it absolutely.....

Hmmmm.....which "local church" should be able to render judgment on us and fulfill Matthew 18:17? The Rock Church in New York? The Holy Church of Christ in Alabama? How about the Chong Yi Church in China?

Which "local" church do you choose?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

...... but it comes back to God who really knows the facts regarding each person to be the only proper judge.

Nope, not true.

As stated previously it is The Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, that is the proper judge because it is the pillar and foundation of truth. Why do you choose to disregard what Scripture has to say on this matter?

Curious Mary

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Nope, not true.

As stated previously it is The Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, that is the proper judge because it is the pillar and foundation of truth. Why do you choose to disregard what Scripture has to say on this matter?

Curious Mary

No.

God, whom is the Holy Spirit (and Son and Father) that is the proper judge because He is Truth. Why do you choose to disregard God?

The Catholic Church is not God. Quit putting them where only God stands and making it an idol.

I don't say thing because I have anything against Catholicism, or Catholic people in general. But I get VERY tired of you on here trying to convince everyone to ignore God himself and instead worship the idol you have made the Catholic Church into.