The false premise of Universalism.

[Episkopos]

Sorry, I realized I neglected this part . . .

I had written . . .

If any be in Christ he is a new creation. If someone is not in Christ, what should be concluded?

Do you not know that if you are baptized into Christ you are baptized into His death? Buried with Him in baptism, that as He was raised from the dead so also we should walk in newness of life. If someone is not in Christ, what should be concluded?

In Christ we have every spritual blessing. Again, if someone is not in Christ, what should be concluded?

I suggest this does not represent a correct soteriology.

~~~

If any be in Christ he is a new creation. If someone is not in Christ, what should be concluded?

2 Corinthians 5
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Do you not know that if you are baptized into Christ you are baptized into His death? Buried with Him in baptism, that as He was raised from the dead so also we should walk in newness of life. If someone is not in Christ, what should be concluded?

Romans 6
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

In Christ we have every spritual blessing. Again, if someone is not in Christ, what should be concluded?

Ephesians 1
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Whatever you may mean when you call these "dogmatic certainties", kind of a tautology, actually, but these are plain statements in the Bible. As you don't think the Bible speaks to us, God speaking, actually, then we're obviously not on the same page.

To call this a Pathology . . . well, gee, what are you trying to say???

You are obviously very attached to an ideology that seems to promise you a good outcome. That is a common human way to get people onboard with a psychological positioning. It works in religion and politics....and consumerism. The devil knows his work.


But here is the truth...most believers today are neither holy NOR righteous. They have abandoned humility and the fear of the Lord for being in a "superior" place of a "special salvation" based on certain dogmatic beliefs taken selectively from the bible. The fact that people can't see that is based on a pathological blindness. They don't want the dream to end.

A person can claim to be holy...because the bible tells him so (apparently) yet be so grossly mistaken that he is sinning against righteousness AND holiness. IOW...no honesty there.

Better to simplify and humble oneself...and not claim anything that people all around you are not saying about you...and even then...be careful what and who you listen to. The devil wants to make you feel good about yourself.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Hi VIJ! I think people judge me how THEY are not as I am. So I can tell a person really has a hard time with themselves when they attack me for backing up the word!

maybe so. Not that it is relevant then maybe it is. Was thinking last week of those I consider elders. Mainly meaning I’ve come to have respect for them. Then I cross over to another thread and those others deem elders, I may respond harshly not seeing them as elders. It is all subjective, yeah? Admiration. Who we look toward as leaders and find communality with. So in one breath I come to the defense of those I consider elders based on my own deciding them to be so, then go disrespect, those others consider their elders. Don’t know if that makes sense but I have issues and think of the verse James 2:4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

“profitable” to me, not saying it is right, but considering the “all have become unprofitable and have gone out of the way” it is concerning the works of the flesh which Are unprofitable and lead to death. But instead be built up in the Spirit of God, renewing the mind ...not of our own ways and own thoughts but renewing our mind of God’s ways and God’s thoughts which are higher and lead to life. Do see it is a growing up in Him in all things. so where you are in this growth, only God can reveal.

 

[Episkopos]

maybe so. Not that it is relevant it then maybe it is. Was thinking last week of those I consider elders. Mainly meaning I’ve come to have respect for them. Then I cross over to another thread and those others deem elders, I may respond harshly not seeing them as elders. It is all subjective, yeah? Who we look toward as leaders and find communality with. So one breath I come to the defense of those I consider elders based on my own deciding them to be so, then go disrespect, those others consider their elders. Don’t know if that makes sense but I have issues and think of the verse James 2:4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?




“profitable” to me, not saying it is right, but considering the “all have become unprofitable and have gone out of the way” it is concerning the works of the flesh which Are unprofitable and lead to death. But instead be built up in the Spirit of God, renewing the mind ...not of our own ways and own thoughts but renewing our mind of God’s ways and God’s thoughts which are higher and lead to life. Do see it is a growing up in Him in all things. so where you are in this growth, only God can reveal.

What I see that that the devil has a few tricks for unbelievers...but he has thousands of tricks for believers....and it works very well. It is his specialty. He loves church. So much so that all that most believers can see is the devil's trick towards unbelievers. They can't see just how deeply deceived they are themselves. I find it fascinating. Sad but fascinating.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Hi VIJ! I think people judge me how THEY are, not as I am. So I can tell a person really has a hard time with themselves when they attack me for backing up the word!

I see myself as being trained in righteousness. I have walked in holiness in the past...but my lack of maturity of understanding of righteousness caused me to fall out of holiness. God told me one day...learn Hebrew. And I did. And I have found so much in the Hebrew scriptures that instruct in righteousness. The subject is very deep...and there is a lot of mysteries contained in the wordings of the bible. But only available to someone with a knowledge of the language. The "lashon hakodesh."

Notice this...

2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

At the time of that writing the scriptures were the Hebrew bible (or the Septuagint translation thereof) since Paul would not have considered his own letters as scripture.

So I began in holiness...and remained on that tack for a few decades until I experience a real revival....which led me away from a basic righteousness. So I am no longer walking in the same power as Jesus did...but being buttressed by righteousness into a maturity that makes intimacy with God something that is beneficial for more than just myself.

God provides the purity and perfection....but we provide the maturity of character to make that beneficial to the world. God changes the hearts...but we are responsible to change the mind.

When both God and man work together we end up with a Christ-like character. But don't be fooled...a lot of people with a little spiritual experience are going the wrong way...into condemnation for lack of righteousness.

I understand that grace can be deceitful. It can fool us into an attitude that says I'm special or specially favoured. But God hates that.

I don't know why, but I balked at first when you said we are responsible to change the mind. Then I thought about it for 5 or 10 seconds and laughed really hard at myself!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Do see it is a growing up in Him in all things.

I do agree that we learn and grow in righteousness. I believe it is training, being prepared for His use.

 

[marks]

You are obviously very attached to an ideology that seems to promise you a good outcome.

It's not so much "what" I'm attached to, it's Who.

You may want to relegate my views to some "attractive ideology" because I like it's implications, but do you see how that is simply another way to say someone is being intellectually dishonest? Is that what you mean to say?

You say, obviously, but I think the reality is that you choose to attempt to discredit me, rather than give a Scriptural response. Quotes straight from the Bible you put down as "dogmatic certainties", calling it pathological. Right.

That is a common human way to get people onboard with a psychological positioning. It works in religion and politics....and consumerism. The devil knows his work.

It works in many ways! But what is that here? Purely your projection, or whatever, but misdirection, and not a Scriptural response.

But here is the truth...most believers today are neither holy NOR righteous. They have abandoned humility and the fear of the Lord for being in a "superior" place of a "special salvation" based on certain dogmatic beliefs taken selectively from the bible. The fact that people can't see that is based on a pathological blindness. They don't want the dream to end.

Broad brush generalization have no place in reasonable discussion, in my opinion. But I'll take what the Bible teaches, and the Holy Spirit confirms, over man's unreasoned and unsupported arguments.

"You're not humble!" "You don't fear God!" "You're 'pathologically' blind!" Most believers? Oh my!

Eternal life has no end.

A person can claim to be holy...because the bible tells him so (apparently) yet be so grossly mistaken that he is sinning against righteousness AND holiness. IOW...no honesty there.

And then . . . a person can just quote God for what He says. And I know those who resist that to the end. But this is all tit-for-tat misdirections. To bad we can't just dialog over what the Bible says.

Better to simplify and humble oneself...and not claim anything that people all around you are not saying about you...and even then...be careful what and who you listen to. The devil wants to make you feel good about yourself.

Don't be too concerned. I care what God says about me. And those who serve Him in love.

Best to humble oneself to accept the simple truths of Scripture, even when we must admit when we have been mistaken.

But again, too bad that you don't want to actually look at the Bible together. You'd seemingly rather continue with the negative personal remarks then dialog over Scripture.

Very sad!

 

[Waiting on him]

Revelation 7:15 KJV
[15] Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.


Tecarta Bible

 

[amadeus]

John, I wish I had you wisdom.
Also with that I like you, I could often write a post as you do,then check your spirit, and then delete it if you don't get a confirmative nudge from the Holy Spirit.
I only remember doing that twice.

I am so sorry

Don't be sorry Helen! We all are what are, no more and no less. With that we must come to the place of being content with what and where we are at the moment... but keep on surrendering to Him so as to grow!

I was not always hearing from God about when not to write or when to delete what I had already spent a lot time writing. Today at times, I allow one to slip through that should never have been. It comes back, I believe, to not praying without ceasing nor rejoicing in the Lord always. But I do believe there are fewer gaps than there have been. Growth it is called. But as soon as I said that, God reminded me about the danger of twisting my arm back that way [lack of humility].

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Revelation 7:15 KJV
[15] Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.


Tecarta Bible

Rev 22:5 There will be no more night...

 

[Waiting on him]

I’m thinking maybe outer darkness is just whatever is a Jew outwardly.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I’m thinking maybe outer darkness is just whatever is a Jew outwardly.

I don't know. Sometimes I catch the Spirit of the word and other times I am woefully stuck in my default position.

 

[Enoch111]

I’m thinking maybe outer darkness is just whatever is a Jew outwardly.

"Outer darkness" is A REGION (not a person or persons) and that is why we read that men are cast into outer darkness.

It would be reasonable to conclude that since space is finite (unlike what was believed some time back) there is a region outside space which is "outer darkness", and that would also be where the Lake of Fire is located.

Since the first and second heavens will be renewed to produce the New Heavens which surround the New Earth (and the second heaven is outer space), Hell cannot remain within this purified and righteous region. Therefore it is in outer darkness. Many times things in the Bible are implied, rather than explicitly stated.

 

[Waiting on him]

"Outer darkness" is A REGION (not a person or persons) and that is why we read that men are cast into outer darkness.

It would be reasonable to conclude that since space is finite (unlike what was believed some time back) there is a region outside space which is "outer darkness", and that would also be where the Lake of Fire is located.

Since the first and second heavens will be renewed to produce the New Heavens which surround the New Earth (and the second heaven is outer space), Hell cannot remain within this purified and righteous region. Therefore it is in outer darkness. Many times things in the Bible are implied, rather than explicitly stated.

That’s an interesting opinion, but when I was in the Boy Scouts about 40 years ago they taught me in order to have fire you must have oxygen, maybe this is why they carry liquid oxygen for propulsion on space ships? Or do you believe this place outside of space is oxygen rich?

 

[Enoch111]

That’s an interesting opinion, but when I was in the Boy Scouts about 40 years ago they taught me in order to have fire you must have oxygen, maybe this is why they carry liquid oxygen for propulsion on space ships? Or do you believe this place outside of space is oxygen rich?

Since God has designed this place, there's no need to get antsy about oxygen. So leave the Boy Scouts out of it.

 

[Waiting on him]

Since God has designed this place, there's no need to get antsy about oxygen. So leave the Boy Scouts out of it.

Yeah, why be practical, when we can speculate.

 

[Renniks]

You are obviously very attached to an ideology that seems to promise you a good outcome. That is a common human way to get people onboard with a psychological positioning. It works in religion and politics....and consumerism. The devil knows his work.


But here is the truth...most believers today are neither holy NOR righteous. They have abandoned humility and the fear of the Lord for being in a "superior" place of a "special salvation" based on certain dogmatic beliefs taken selectively from the bible. The fact that people can't see that is based on a pathological blindness. They don't want the dream to end.

A person can claim to be holy...because the bible tells him so (apparently) yet be so grossly mistaken that he is sinning against righteousness AND holiness. IOW...no honesty there.

Better to simplify and humble oneself...and not claim anything that people all around you are not saying about you...and even then...be careful what and who you listen to. The devil wants to make you feel good about yourself.

Romans 3 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being[c] will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

No human is holy.
And that's why we need Christ's righteousness.

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

What is our part in our continued salvation? Continuing to trust God, not our own supposed holiness.

 

[amadeus]

…. Was thinking last week of those I consider elders. Mainly meaning I’ve come to have respect for them. Then I cross over to another thread and those others deem elders, I may respond harshly not seeing them as elders. It is all subjective, yeah? Admiration. Who we look toward as leaders and find communality with. So in one breath I come to the defense of those I consider elders based on my own deciding them to be so, then go disrespect, those others consider their elders. Don’t know if that makes sense but I have issues and think of the verse James 2:4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

Is it all subjective? Too much of it is. When we are "in the Spirit" and we speak, it is not subjective. Subjective is how man is in the flesh and at times when someone with Spirit moves in and out of the Spirit. When you or I or anyone is always "in the Spirit" we will never be subjective in the honour we give to another man. But... who among us is already there?

We saw in Peter a moment, or longer, when he apparently was out of the Spirit for Apostle Paul rebuked him [Gal 2:11ff], who was or should have been his elder.

"Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward." I Thess 5:17-18

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Is it all subjective? Too much of it is. When we are "in the Spirit" and we speak, it is not subjective. Subjective is how man is in the flesh and at times when someone with Spirit moves in and out of the Spirit. When you or I or anyone is always "in the Spirit" we will never be subjective in the honour we give to another man. But... who among us is already there?

We saw in Peter a moment, or longer, when he apparently was out of the Spirit for Apostle Paul rebuked him [Gal 2:11ff], who was or should have been his elder.

"Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward." I Thess 5:17-18

understood and good points. Was only reflecting on being partial and His saying we are partial and then how is it then we become the judge of evil thoughts? Favoritism is not subjective? 1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

honestly, more and more I’m beginning to see what others find worthy of admiration is becoming less admirable.

 

[amadeus]

understood and good points. Was only reflecting on being partial and His saying we are partial and then how is it then we become the judge of evil thoughts? Favoritism is not subjective? 1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

honestly, more and more I’m beginning to see what others find worthy of admiration is becoming less admirable.

Yes, favoritism is subjective. All of us have certainly been guilty of it and I guess in a measure continue to be. Only God is always able to be absolutely fair [objective?] because He alone is able to understand every detail of every issue and judge accordingly. Some things we cannot even understand well enough to ever see our own problems, never mind the problems of others. As we grow more like Him our judgment should be improving... but until we are just like He is...? What exactly would it mean to be like Him?

 

[Joseph77]

Many have picked up the idea that all will be saved or continue in eternal life even in the fires of hell. But only the saints will have eternal life, all others will not have eternal life in any form. Now the wrong premise that comes with Universalism,

.... amen, yes , the false teachings and false teachers of such things grows daily....

IN a recent poll of a forum - to count good posts vs ungodly posts, the count was 17 false to 3 true.
This seems actually to be too good to me, but we can hope....