The false premise of Universalism.

[stunnedbygrace]

VIJ, the 4 outcomes are shown in the 4 rivers that went out from Eden. The Euphrates will one day dry up. There will be no water there any more. I think it is the outer darkness outcome, but I haven't looked much into it. And by the way, epi was the one who told me about the 4 rivers showing the 4 destinies. I had heard it nowhere before him.

The other thing I had never heard before until I met Epi is that righteousness and holiness are not the same thing. And when you take that, together with 4 outcomes that lead to 3 eternal destinies, you begin to reconcile things you thought you would NEVER understand in scripture. I have a post it note on the table now, to remind me that when I become confused again, to see if these two things (which are difficult to keep in my mind because of all the assumptions I adopted) help clear it up!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So we are going to continue playing the " He said she said" Game then.

Read the post again. #41 I think

Tell me where I said to Epi that " he had said" that Moses couldn't enter in.

You accuse me of misunderstanding ...

I did not say that..

I said -quote
<Those died in the wilderness , because they didn't qualify for the Promised Land. Remember ...Neither did Moses!! >

How do you make that into me saying that Epi said it???
He didn't mention Moses, I did!!

In what I said above , somehow saying that it was that Epi had said anything at all, about Moses?????

This whole thing is getting silly now. Like chasing fleas on a dog. Haha!!

Clear it up then. In your next paragraph, when you said, "you are saying," who is the "you" that you were speaking to? Or about?

 

[amadeus]

In this man's humble opinion, shifting responsibility is not charity. Neither is failing to take responsibility.

If only we had the humility to simply recognize when we've overstepped, and to just apogize with an honest heart!

I realize there are those who would just as soon that I'd be silent!

Naturally you will see things as you do, this is how I see it.

Is your opinion humble? Have you not already decided he is guilty because you think you know where he is?

Any charity would be on your part, not his because you are the accuser!

Would it not be a good thing to try to keep the peace instead of pressing the issue because you disagree with him and believe that he has overstepped. You are saying that he @Episkopos is responsible for something. For what? For declaring what he believes and then defending it? Is that overstepping? Even if he were guilty did God or any moderator/administrator of this forum appoint you as judge and jury for his case insisting on what, his sentence should be: silence and an apology perhaps? Or suspension or banning?

Believe me, there are much worse things than what you accuse him of happening on this forum.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

What's important is between the Holy Spirit and Helen, because that's where the magic happens.

Oh, the Gospel, belief in it, and it's reasonable truths have now become "magic." It's all about how you feel, not truth compared to Scripture. Instead, it is subjective and "proven" when another endorses it.

Note: Concerning her above statement, this isn't at all about Jesus. It's about feeling, spiritual sensuality, subjectivity, and in fact nothing about Jesus.

The Holy Spirit does not speak of himself, but of Christ, glorifies Christ, not himself; Joh 16:14. By this rule, one can determine who is preaching the truth, and when Christ has been left out altogether, it isn't truth. Today to say "Holy Spirit" means subjectivism, whatever you feel, going by your goosebumps, intuition. It totally avoids truth and Christ.

For instance, the same has stated she knows the false Christ of Mormonism must be true because those Mormons who believe in this false Christ, SHE can feel the Holy Spirit in them. The world applauds. Sad fact? SHE has become the authority, not God, not Scripture, her.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Lolol! Yes it's magic and I am a witch!

 

[Waiting on him]

Revelation 15:4 KJV
[4] Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

The gold silver and precious stones are all a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, only God will be credible for this.

The principalities vain imagination strong holds and wickedness in high places is found in outer darkness burnt up.

Once again it’s about the perpetual manifestation of Christ,

As one other poster always ends

NOT ME.
Tecarta Bible

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Well take
Proverbs 25:21-22 If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink: [22] For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the Lord shall reward thee

Christ said “I am the bread”. He is the One who gave (Deals out)His bread to the hungry and to the thirsty water to drink. Consider the woman by the well (a Samaritan)and the living water He spoke of...and the by doing so “thou shall heap coals of fire upon his head, and the Lord shall reward thee” Did He heap coals of fire upon his enemies head? Is that not the: to destroy those who destroy the earth. His weapons being Spiritual and not carnal for the bringing down of vain imaginations. Not sure how this outer darkness and if he is filthy let him stay filthy fits in with all things brought down and into subjection, except corruption does not inherit the incorruptible.

I had another thought on this, where you say corruption does not inherit the incorruptible.

I think, (although its hard to wrap my mind around it) that maybe angels have immortality. I can't explain how that would be. But Satan appears to have been designed immortal. He has been around for thousands upon thousands of years. And I have it in my mind that humans were not created immortal. Adam could have eaten from the tree of life and then lived forever, but he didn't, and was prevented from it after the fall when it was blocked by God. So I think when all are thrown into the lake of fire, men will be annihilated, but Satan will not be annihilated.

And concerning the outer darkness, by what I read, those put there do not die. And yet, there are men there, who were not born immortal. So it seems to me, the only way they could be immortal is after death is done away with, they CAN'T die.

And strangely, there is a verse in Rev that talks about men wanting to die and seeking death, but not being ABLE to die! It's a puzzling verse.

 

[Helen]

Is your opinion humble? Have you not already decided he is guilty because you think you know where he is?

Any charity would be on your part, not his because you are the accuser!

Would it not be a good thing to try to keep the peace instead of pressing the issue because you disagree with him and believe that he has overstepped. You are saying that he @Episkopos is responsible for something. For what? For declaring what he believes and then defending it? Is that overstepping? Even if he were guilty did God or any moderator/administrator of this forum appoint you as judge and jury for his case insisting on what, his sentence should be: silence and an apology perhaps? Or suspension or banning?

Believe me, there are much worse things than what you accuse him of happening on this forum.

John, I wish I had you wisdom.
Also with that I like you, I could often write a post as you do,then check your spirit, and then delete it if you don't get a confirmative nudge from the Holy Spirit.
I only remember doing that twice.

I am so sorry

 

[Enoch111]

He doesn't go to hell, he just lost his life here.

That's quite possible, but only God knows. I trust that is not an attempt to deny the reality of Hell (the Lake of Fire).

 

[Helen]

For instance, the same has stated she knows the false Christ of Mormonism must be true because those Mormons who believe in this false Christ, SHE can feel the Holy Spirit in them. The world applauds. Sad fact? SHE has become the authority, not God, not Scripture, her.

Funny man.

I said more than once , I like Jane Does spirit...is is much more polite that you Calvinists...I did not say Holy Spirit.

This seems to be the day of "spinning someones post" just to suit a good response of ones own choosing.

Very clever .

 

[Helen]

That's quite possible, but only God knows. I trust that is not an attempt to deny the reality of Hell (the Lake of Fire).

You are the first person since ' I don't know when', that has said :- "but only God knows" Everyone else seems so very very sure that they already KNOW...

Thank you for that refresher.

 

[Tkinnie]

Or just stick to what scripture says.

 

[Nancy]

Maybe

I had another thought on this, where you say corruption does not inherit the incorruptible.

I think, (although its hard to wrap my mind around it) that maybe angels have immortality. I can't explain how that would be. But Satan appears to have been designed immortal. He has been around for thousands upon thousands of years. And I have it in my mind that humans were not created immortal. Adam could have eaten from the tree of life and then lived forever, but he didn't, and was prevented from it after the fall when it was blocked by God. So I think when all are thrown into the lake of fire, men will be annihilated, but Satan will not be annihilated.

And concerning the outer darkness, by what I read, those put there do not die. And yet, there are men there, who were not born immortal. So it seems to me, the only way they could be immortal is after death is done away with, they CAN'T die.

And strangely, there is a verse in Rev that talks about men wanting to die and seeking death, but not being ABLE to die! It's a puzzling verse.

Maybe Satan is "the worm that never dies".

 

[Waiting on him]

Maybe

Maybe Satan is "the worm that never dies".

Job 19:25-27 KJV
[25] For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: [26] And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: [27] Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.


Tecarta Bible

 

[VictoryinJesus]

So I think when all are thrown into the lake of fire, men will be annihilated, but Satan will not be annihilated.

Good questions especially about the devil being immortal which is maybe taught. I don’t know. It appears sin is immortal as it lives on but it doesn’t as it is cut off. Have not gone back to check the casting into the fire but think it says the devil also. If you will notice everything false and lies: false teachers, false prophets...personally, and can’t prove it, but maybe it is the “body of sin” which goes into the fire, including the deceiver. Also notice those who fear are cast into the lake of fire. Yet God says fear not what men can do to the body, fear the one who has the power to cast both body and soul into torment. Could be a good thing fear of what men can do to the body is cast into the fire and consumed.
1 John 4:18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

perfect love casting out fear is not a bad thing...as there is to be no fear in love for fear is torment.

And concerning the outer darkness, by what I read, those put there do not die.

speaking of the gold (epi) brought up from the four rivers. It is literal gold? So if the outer darkness is connected in any way to the four rivers of Eden...is it a literal darkness or a spiritual darkness? Yet He says:
Isaiah 45:22-25Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. [23] I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. [24] Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. [25] In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.


Isaiah 45:23 Lexicon: "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
Isaiah 45:24 Lexicon: "They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

and there are my questions concerning the topic of the thread. God sworn by Himself...the word going forth from His mouth in righteousness (not to return void) that to Him every knee will bow....

“Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.”
Matthew 11:6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

curious ....has that changed?

 

[marks]

For declaring what he believes and then defending it?

Actually, he generally, at least to what I've seen, does not defend his doctrine. The same pattern seen here has repeated many times. There is no Biblical defense, there is lots of obfuscation, and, if the person persists, ad hominems.

Personally, I find his doctrine not Biblical, and actually harmful. But that's just me. As far as the forum goes, I prefer things to be clearly seen.

And now episkopos dissappears into the woodwork, others defend him, it's like the playground.

Yeah. There's plenty wrong on these forums, I agree with that.

Now you want me to just shut up . . . go away . . . stop questioning . . . stop seeing . . . stop revealing . . . while you feel free to continue.

OK. I understand, I've seen it many times before.

This is so sad, but so common.

 

[marks]

You are saying that he @Episkopos is responsible for something. For what? For declaring what he believes and then defending it? Is that overstepping?

Try to remember here, my comment was simply that he was making the argument personal, I don't think that is proper.

It's like you are painting me something else, I just like to see a little forum decorum, and reasoned arguments. I suppose that's too much to hope for.

Again, very sad!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

speaking of the gold (epi) brought up from the four rivers. It is literal gold? So if the outer darkness is connected in any way to the four rivers of Eden...is it a literal darkness or a spiritual darkness?

I would say...not literal as in a place where the sun doesnt ever shine, since the sun will be no more and will cease to shine...well, anywhere at all. And Jesus will be the light.

 

[Waiting on him]

I would say...not literal as in a place where the sun doesnt ever shine, since the sun will be no more and will cease to shine...well, anywhere at all. And Jesus will be the light.

Does it say there’s no sun, or that there’s no need?