The false premise of Universalism.
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So its in rev 21:1 where it talks about there no longer being a sea/ocean when the old heaven and earth disappear and the new heaven and earth come down.
As for the sun, if we get very technical, it does not phrase it the same way as about the sea. It says they have no need for lamp or Sun and that Jesus will be their light. (Also says no more night.)
As for the sun, if we get very technical, it does not phrase it the same way as about the sea. It says they have no need for lamp or Sun and that Jesus will be their light. (Also says no more night.)
VictoryinJesus
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do not have anything against Episkopos, actually seeing so much he does contribute. We all have some errors possibly, yeah? not faulting anyone for errors. It is the action of speaking of humility and holiness and righteousness but whenever something goes down where those around, sisters in Christ, start getting drug through the dirt...they end up being the ones apologizing and bearing it alone. Is it biblical that those claiming such strength in the Lord then jumping ship while those left behind get deemed the ones at fault. Do not see where Helen had any cause to apologize for bringing up Moses. Do not see why then it turned on her as being the problem. Nor ever Nancy. Both always displaying the fruits of humility, restraint in love, more so in owning and agreeing quickly that they were wrong even if that is not the case.
Romans 12:16-17 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits. [17] Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
Marks, also do not always agree with you but am with you in questioning why the blame is aways cast upon others nearby for even asking a question. seems upside down.
I would have to go look it all up again. I do remember marveling over how during the tribulation, it says men will seek to die but will not be able to die. So it is a possibility that those who take the mark could be not annihilated. And it does say of the beast and false prophet that they will be cast in alive, which is odd wording to me. But as for hell, where I think men currently are being...held, it says hell will be cast there and this is the second death. So those are who I think will be annihilated. But it doesn't actually say of the unholy trinity that they will die. It does say they will be tormented forever. But go look it up because I'm going off what I remember from when I looked into it. No notes in front of me.
Epi does not claim "such strength in the Lord", I.e, holiness. He DOES say there is a difference between righteousness and holiness, but he most definitely does NOT claim to BE in holiness. He does not claim to be in Christ currently. I realize that people think He says that, but he does not say it. They just assume he is saying it.
If any be in Christ he is a new creation. If someone is not in Christ, what should be concluded?
Do you not know that if you are baptized into Christ you are baptized into His death? Buried with Him in baptism, that as He was raised from the dead so also we should walk in newness of life. If someone is not in Christ, what should be concluded?
In Christ we have every spritual blessing. Again, if someone is not in Christ, what should be concluded?
I suggest this does not represent a correct soteriology.
Much love!
Of course one should not apologize for mentioning or bringing up Moses. But she didn't just bring up Moses, she said to Epi,
Epi did not say that, does not believe that, and was not trying to tell anyone that as Helen said he was.
She did not ask a question. She made A statement. A question does not begin with "you are trying to tell us" and it does not end with "!!!" A question ends with "???"
There's a lot of flying off the handle going on like that...trying to see someone in the worst possible way. Meanwhile the bible is always right...so these never question the bible and it's wordings. But if you say exactly the same thing...but without the verse quote...you get a hizzy fit. So something very dishonest going on.
Universalism exists because there are verses in the bible that people take out of context....but they do exist. When you try pointing out those verses....not to prove universalism....but to show that part of the truth is being avoided...then they who are against universalism but have a different error will fly off the handle and accuse you of universalism. So this is more a pathology than a bible understanding. I find that most people are dishonest....especially believers. That's what dogmatic certainty does to a person.
No wonder the church is so divided. Too much carnal mind and dogmatic pathological nonsense.
We need psychiatry...not bible teachings.
All dogmatic certainties. For help with this particular pathology...I started a thread called (of all things)...."dogmatic certainty"
Bibles don't speak to people. And bible verses repeated over and over don't mean a connection to God or the truth. One needs to connect with God for anything in the above bible citings to have any real meaning...in Spirit and truth. Religious ideologies may seem to be the same as truth...but they are a counterfeit of an actual relationship with God.
VictoryinJesus
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then I’m sorry for assuming this. It is mainly when he speaks of not many are holy as speaking of himself among the not many. Or maybe it is the righteous. See, I’m not even sure what he believes or where he places himself. Yes, misunderstanding can twist things. especially here in post that can easily be misunderstood or taken wrong.
Yes, I've been following that thread.
"Bibles don't speak to people."
That is unexpected to read on a Christian forum.
And bible verses repeated over and over don't mean a connection to God or the truth.
In the same way as repeating the times tables doesn't make you a nuclear physicist, yes, I realize that. Simply repeating Anything over and over will not make it true.
One needs to connect with God for anything in the above bible citings to have any real meaning...in Spirit and truth.
Certainly the Bible is spiritually understood. Between you and I, I'd say that is stating the obvious.
Religious ideologies may seem to be the same as truth...but they are a counterfeit of an actual relationship with God.
"Religious ideologies", OK, I can agree with that. If someone is merely "religious", but without an actual relationship, then yes, they can come to think that they do have a relationship when all they have is a mental concept. Certainly something to make sure of, that one truly has come to know their Creator.
How does one know when they are actually in a relationship with their Creator? Especially if you don't see the Bible as speaking to you?
Much love!
Okay, but you assume he says he is among the holy. I believe if you ask him questions, he would probably answer them!
Sorry, I realized I neglected this part . . .
I had written . . .
If any be in Christ he is a new creation. If someone is not in Christ, what should be concluded?
Do you not know that if you are baptized into Christ you are baptized into His death? Buried with Him in baptism, that as He was raised from the dead so also we should walk in newness of life. If someone is not in Christ, what should be concluded?
In Christ we have every spritual blessing. Again, if someone is not in Christ, what should be concluded?
I suggest this does not represent a correct soteriology.
~~~
If any be in Christ he is a new creation. If someone is not in Christ, what should be concluded?
2 Corinthians 5
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Do you not know that if you are baptized into Christ you are baptized into His death? Buried with Him in baptism, that as He was raised from the dead so also we should walk in newness of life. If someone is not in Christ, what should be concluded?
Romans 6
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
In Christ we have every spritual blessing. Again, if someone is not in Christ, what should be concluded?
Ephesians 1
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Whatever you may mean when you call these "dogmatic certainties", kind of a tautology, actually, but these are plain statements in the Bible. As you don't think the Bible speaks to us, God speaking, actually, then we're obviously not on the same page.
To call this a Pathology . . . well, gee, what are you trying to say???
VictoryinJesus
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I’ll try asking questions and to not assume so much. Ultimately it is between him and God where he is placed.
Let me ask you . . . can you be a new creation outside of Christ?
Can you be co-crucified with Christ, outside of Christ?
Hi VIJ! I think people judge me how THEY are, not as I am. So I can tell a person really has a hard time with themselves when they attack me for backing up the word!
I see myself as being trained in righteousness. I have walked in holiness in the past...but my lack of maturity of understanding of righteousness caused me to fall out of holiness. God told me one day...learn Hebrew. And I did. And I have found so much in the Hebrew scriptures that instruct in righteousness. The subject is very deep...and there is a lot of mysteries contained in the wordings of the bible. But only available to someone with a knowledge of the language. The "lashon hakodesh."
Notice this...
2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
At the time of that writing the scriptures were the Hebrew bible (or the Septuagint translation thereof) since Paul would not have considered his own letters as scripture.
So I began in holiness...and remained on that tack for a few decades until I experience a real revival....which led me away from a basic righteousness. So I am no longer walking in the same power as Jesus did...but being buttressed by righteousness into a maturity that makes intimacy with God something that is beneficial for more than just myself.
God provides the purity and perfection....but we provide the maturity of character to make that beneficial to the world. God changes the hearts...but we are responsible to change the mind.
When both God and man work together we end up with a Christ-like character. But don't be fooled...a lot of people with a little spiritual experience are going the wrong way...into condemnation for lack of righteousness.
I understand that grace can be deceitful. It can fool us into an attitude that says I'm special or specially favoured. But God hates that.
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