The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[RogerDC]

The Church is assigning herself in place of Jesus Christ when taking the lead as the Head for interpreting scripture correctly for each and every believer.

Sorry, but this is dumb. If Christ is the Head and the Church is his body, then what the body does and says comes from the Head, so the Church is not taking the place of Christ, but simply obeying Christ and voicing the thoughts of Christ.

 

[RogerDC]

Hello Roger,
I have found a different way that is quite biblical.
I went back as a believer and examined my roots in Catholicism.
I spoke with several priests and was shocked at the less than biblical responses offered.
I have a second cousin who is a nun who speaks on ewtn, and WINS RADIO 1010 NY.for the church. Her theology is defective.
Roger....here is what I could suggest. If you are out in a public place and get into a discussion with a RC. Just ask them biblical questions and you will quickly discover a total lack of understanding .
I repeat a little exercise over and over if having such a conversation.
I write on a piece of paper 6 boxes.
I then tell them each box represents a chapter in the book of Ephesians.
I then ask them to write either a verse, or a name, or a word associated with the chapters....get a blank stare, deer in the headlights look 98% of the time. Womb to tomb RC. Do not know scripture at all much less sola scriptura. You go ahead and try it, let me know what kind of fruit you find?
I am thankful they had the trinity correct and were useful in determining the canon of scripture, but the false works based gospel and idolatry is fatal.

What are you talking about? Salvation is determined by a Bible-knowledge test. A believer can be saved without so much as ever seeing a Bible, let alone studying it’s contents. Many of the early Christians were totally illiterate or had no Bible at all to read, and yet they made it to Heaven - because the Catholic Church taught them all they need to know. And so it is today - most Catholics don’t study the Bible because there is no need to; the Church teaches them all they require for salvation.

The Church is the “pillar and foundation of the truth” (1Tim 3:15), not the Scriptures. The Church is the “fullness” of Christ (Eph 1:22-23), not the Scriptures.
Sola Scriptura is a fool’s paradise invented by heretics … you are welcome to it. As for me, I will stick with the teachings of Christ’s one, true Church.

 

[RogerDC]

Kind of a deflection from the truth in scripture that the Holy Spirit in believers does the job. We may not always listen, especially when we refuse to believe the church led us astray by their teachings when the scripture clearly opposes such teachings, but the Holy Spirit is doing His job.

Kind of a deflection from my question - not to mention, reality (as opposed to just quoting verses).

Well, the Holy Spirit must not be doing his job because you can’t tell me where I can find INFALLIBLE interpretations of the Bible. That means all you have access to are FALLIBLE interpretations of the Bible and your faith is based on uncertainties, guesswork, and errors. So much for your claim (from 1John 2:27) that the Holy Spirit teaches you “everything”!

 

[RogerDC]

The Holy Spirit of course. Duh.

You didn’t answer my question: Do you interpret the Bible infallibly? If not, who does? If the Holy Spirit interprets the Bible infallibly, where can I find a copy of these interpretations?

 

[RogerDC]

So if we can just figure out who is the one true Catholic Church, we'll be sitting pretty. It's somewhere in asia minor, right?

Er, the Catholic Church is based in Vatican City, which is quite close to Rome. Rome is in Italy, and Italy is in Europe. But Catholic Churches can be found all over the world.

Suppose we resurrect the one true church, will it have the mind of Christ?

No need to "resurrect" it - it never died (as Jesus promised - Matt 16:19). And Yes, the one, true Church has the mind of Christ because it is the “fullness” of Christ (Eph 1:22-23) and is “the pillar and foundation of the truth” (1Tim 3:15).

 

[RogerDC]

8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

So, according to you (and Jesus), I can't call my biological father, "Father". Hilarious.

Find one single verse that shows the early Christians calling their peers "fathers".

In Acts 22;1, Paul addresses the Jewish leaders as “fathers”;
in Acts 7:2, Stephen addressed the Jewish religious leaders as “Fathers”;
in ICor 4:15, Paul says “I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel”;
in Philemon 10, Paul says he has become a spiritual “father”.

 

[RogerDC]

He called him little pebble

Nonsense. Jesus called Simon "Cephas" (John 1:42), which is Aramaic for "rock/stone". Your "litte pebble" theory is pure invention.

and stated on the rock (the knowledge that Jesus was the christ) he would build his church

More nonsense. Jesus directly addressed Peter (whom Jesus named "rock/stone" in John 1:42) - not a belief - when he said "on this rock I will build my Church".

 

[RogerDC]

Does not change the meaning of what Jesus said to Peter - that the Rock is Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God.

For the third time … Why did Jesus change Simon's name to "rock", the first very time they met (John 1:42)?

 

[mjrhealth]

Are you saying you have no access to infallible interpretation of Scripture? If so, that means you only have access to FALLIBLE interpretations - in which case, I feel sorry for you.

I have Christ and the Spirit of God, no need to rely on "self'.
And the spirit of truth will teach you all things.

Do you not have Him.

 

[mjrhealth]

The Catholic Church is not "any man" - it is guided by the Holy Spirit into "all truth", which includes the correct interpretation of crucial Scriptures.

No it is not, she us the mother of all harlots, led by blind and foolish men

 

[mjrhealth]

The Church is the “pillar and foundation of the truth” (1Tim 3:15), not the Scriptures. The

Yes His Church not yours.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Yes His Church not yours.

The Holy Spirit walked away from the RCC as soon as the Bishop of Rome decided to take over the church and force his self-appointed authority on it. From then on, including now, it is a total fraud. The problem is that every Christian outside of it can see it clearly, but those deceived by it are blind to what it really is.

 

[mjrhealth]

The Holy Spirit walked away from the RCC as soon as the Bishop of Rome decided to take over the church and force his self-appointed authority on it. From then on, including now, it is a total fraud. The problem is that every Christian outside of it can see it clearly, but those deceived by it are blind to what it really is.

The holy spirit, has never had anything to do with mens religions, neither has Christ or God, not than and not now.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The Catholic Church doesn't teach that a person was saved and then lost their salvation.

They do not teach a person is saved at all, they teach it is an ongoing process which men are a part of

that’s the major issue, it is no better than Protestant churches who teach prety much a watered down form of Romanism

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Are you saying you have no access to infallible interpretation of Scripture? If so, that means you only have access to FALLIBLE interpretations - in which case, I feel sorry for you.

No one has this ability

no one

not the priests of Israel, not the popes of rome

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Sounds like nonsense to me. The Catholic Church doesn’t rely on any one translation of the Bible. Furthermore, the Catholic Church doesn’t rely on bumbling amateurs to translate the Scriptures - that task it left to professional experts of the very highest standard.

Who give us their personal view of what the Bible says then tells us not to listen to anyone else. Or test for yourselves to see if what they say is true.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That passage doesn't disprove what I said:
Since the Church is the “fullness” of Christ (Eph 1:22-23), if Christ is the Word of God, then so is his Church - that’s just simple logic, which you seem to have trouble grasping.The Catholic Church is the body of Christ, which is her Head. Therefore the Church is controlled by and obeys Christ.That’s right, and just as the Holy Spirit inspired men to write the Scriptures, the Holy Spirit inspires men to lead the Church - as described in Eph 4:4-14, which says Christ has provided “apostles … prophets … evangelists … pastors and teachers” for the “perfecting of the saints … unto … the fullness of Christ”.

Why do you ignore what your Bible says?

That’s what they think

if they are wrong, they have led many to hell

just like their OT counterparts have

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Nonsense. Jesus called Simon "Cephas" (John 1:42), which is Aramaic for "rock/stone". Your "litte pebble" theory is pure invention.
More nonsense. Jesus directly addressed Peter (whom Jesus named "rock/stone" in John 1:42) - not a belief - when he said "on this rock I will build my Church".

The nonsense is on you man

Jesus did not say I call you peter and on you I will build my church

he did not say I call you peter and on peter I will build my church

he said I call you Petros (a smaller stone, noun nomitive singular masculine) and on this Petra (large rock, noun datative, singular feminine) I will build my church

they are not even related nouns, one is masculine one is feminine

stop listening to men, they have deceived you

 

[Enow]

Sorry, but Scripture contradicts you. Compare your quoted passage from Ephesians to another passage from Ephesians, that relates to the same things:

“There is one body and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all. But to every one of us is given grace, according to the measure of the giving of Christ … And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and teachers, For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Until we all meet into the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ; That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive” (Eph 4:4-14).

Notice what it says about the source of all these things - the “apostles … prophets … evangelists … pastors and teachers” provided by Christ - the CHURCH, in other words. Christ works through his CHURCH, guided by the Holy Spirit.

But not the CC since now your Pope is telling you not to convert any unbelievers at all, and yet evangelists are those that operate outside the assembly.

Whatever. What does Eph 1:22-23 mean when it says the Church is the “fullness” of Christ?
I don’t know - I’ve never heard of the “Church of St. Peter”.

The body of believers, not a specific place called the CC.

 

[Enow]

That passage doesn't disprove what I said:
Since the Church is the “fullness” of Christ (Eph 1:22-23), if Christ is the Word of God, then so is his Church - that’s just simple logic, which you seem to have trouble grasping.The Catholic Church is the body of Christ, which is her Head. Therefore the Church is controlled by and obeys Christ.That’s right, and just as the Holy Spirit inspired men to write the Scriptures, the Holy Spirit inspires men to lead the Church - as described in Eph 4:4-14, which says Christ has provided “apostles … prophets … evangelists … pastors and teachers” for the “perfecting of the saints … unto … the fullness of Christ”.

Why do you ignore what your Bible says?

It is how you apply that to mean which is not rightly dividing the word of truth, brother.

The body of Christ as in the body of believers, is not restricted by the CC.

And since the CC does not do any evangelism any more per the Pope, how does that not prove the CC is not solely the body of Christ but not abiding in Him either?