What is the purpose of Grace?

[ProDeo]

Signs are for unbelievers.

As you can see I skipped your usual Lizbeth rant and only want to comment on this one.

Was Gideon an unbeliever when he asked for a sign and got it from the Lord ?

 

[Episkopos]

As you can see I skipped your usual Lizbeth rant and only want to comment on this one.

Was Gideon an unbeliever when he asked for a sign and got it from the Lord ?

Have you never asked the Lord for a fleece? A fleece (like what Gideon did) is where you want to be sure that it is God who is calling you to do something. It is a confirmation. Not in the existence of God....but in the proper understanding of what God said to you.

The kind of sign that is for unbelievers is about the very existence of God. God is not a showman that wants to show off His power. The devil does that.

 

[Lizbeth]

You may need to step back and examine all the steps you took to get to where you now find yourself.

Errors are built on errors until one is so lost that the truth sounds ridiculous to the ear. It begins with small deviations and proceeds to chasms.

The first deviation usually begins with the idea that we get to choose God as our personal Saviour. The truth is the opposite. We do all to be accepted of Christ.

If one believes the first deviation then there is a gradual slide into the modern version of Gnosticism we see here so much. To the extent where people will actually claim to BE the righteousness of God...even as they do evil in the world. Even the devil would blush at that...or at least find a delight in it. Who cares about sin if God can't see them except through them having appropriated for themselves the very attributes of God Himself?The devil said I WILL be like the Most High. I will ascend. But for the modern deviated ones....they don't need to ascend...they are ALREADY THERE! They ARE the righteousness of God. Now the devil just wants to be like those who have appropriated for themselves the attributes of God. OR....he just laughs at the credulity of the religious ambitious self-seekers.

Positional theology is included in the deviations that explains away the heavenly power of God. No need to seek first the kingdom. You already have it within you. Thus negates every teaching of Jesus.

Think I'll just say this, that I know what is genuinely of God in my life and where I myself fall short. When you're being carried along by His Spirit, you dont' really have a choice except to yield to Him and go along for the ride. That is His mercy/grace in spite of my mistakes and shortcomings. You are so black and white in your thinking.....indicative of the carnal mind.........you don't seem to believe God can do miracles or that anyone can have any measure of faith when they are not perfected. How about the disciples for an example? And who was discipling them? And is faith not a living thing that grows?

 

[Episkopos]

Think I'll just say this, that I know what is genuinely of God in my life and where I myself fall short. When you're being carried along by His Spirit, you dont' really have a choice except to yield to Him and go along for the ride. That is His mercy/grace in spite of my mistakes and shortcomings. You are so black and white in your thinking.....indicative of the carnal mind.........you don't seem to believe God can do miracles or that anyone can have any measure of faith when they are not perfected.

Your very black and white assessment of what I'm saying comes from a carnal understanding on your part. You don't understand nuance. You latch onto a doctrine that you think affirms you. And ANY critique of that you see as evil.


One doesn't need to be perfect to not make themselves the center of everything. All it takes is some humility.

So what you should be complaining about in my teaching is....why do you always have to make NOT about me???!!!!

How about the disciples for an example? And who was discipling them?

The Lord still disciples a few...those who are called into perfection. But He only calls the humble ones. Not the perfected ones.

And is faith not a living thing that grows?

Faith is on two levels. Our faith can grow. But the faith of Christ is a constant. As such faith can also be transformed. From faith to FAITH. Transformed how??? By translation INTO Christ.

He gives grace to the HUMBLE....not the namers and claimers. He resists those.

So I'm not being black and white or a perfectionist....no, I'm claiming that Christ is perfect and He calls the HUMBLE ones into His perfection.

 

[Lizbeth]

Positional theology is included in the deviations that explains away the heavenly power of God. No need to seek first the kingdom. You already have it within you. Thus negates every teaching of Jesus.

Uh no....Jesus Himself SAID the kingdom is within us. And yet it is through much tribulation that we are entering. It is yes, but not necessarily yet. Like where its says the promises are "Yes" in Him, and in Him "Amen." But the natural man can't grasp these things of course.

 

[Lizbeth]

Your very black and white assessment of what I'm saying comes from a carnal understanding on your part. You don't understand nuance. You latch onto a doctrine that you think affirms you. And ANY critique of that you see as evil.


One doesn't need to be perfect to not make themselves the center of everything. All it takes is some humility.

So what you should be complaining about in my teaching is....why do you always have to make NOT about me???!!!!


The Lord still disciples a few...those who are called into perfection. But He only calls the humble ones. Not the perfected ones.

Faith is on two levels. Our faith can grow. But the faith of Christ is a constant. As such faith can also be transformed. From faith to FAITH. Transformed how??? By translation INTO Christ.

He gives grace to the HUMBLE....not the namers and claimers. He resists those.

So I'm not being black and white or a perfectionist....no, I'm claiming that Christ is perfect and He calls the HUMBLE ones into His perfection.

Of course we need humility. Why on earth would you assume that all who don't agree with everything you say have no humility?

 

[Hepzibah]

Issue : original sin, sin nature.

Depends who you ask.

Augustine - nagging, pushing, persisting selfish babies who insist the mother's breast.

:)

Paul - Efez 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

That does not rule out that we gain a sin nature once we fall by commiting our own sins.

Scriptute tells us that it is our own sins that condemn us - the man that sinneth he shall die etc.

David - Ps 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Instead of sin-nature I suggest, born in a fallen state, in need for Christ.

The Mother's State:
A view suggests it refers literally to the mother being a sinner at the time of conception, or points to difficult family circumstances, rather than establishing a universal rule about babies (AI)

Differences between A&E and us.

1. A&E had a choice, we don't.

2. We are not created as an adult in Paradise living in the wonderful presence of God with just one simple commandment.

3. Unlike A&E we are born totally helpless, are in need for much care, are dependent of who our parents are (not God), overloaded with right's and wrong's, do's and dont's during our upbringing.

4. if we are lucky we are born in a Christian country, even more lucky in a Christian family. If we are lucky we are told about God and come to the realization that we are sinners and that we have to make a choice, before or against Him.

5. And fight sin. It's a life full of spiritual struggle and then we die, nothing we can do about it, we are what we are and we are totally incomparable to A&E. They knew how it was living in the presence of the Lord and must have cried a million of tears landing on the hostile earth.

6. I wish I would have had the same chance as A&E, living in the presence of God's love, I surely would not eat of the forbidden tree, or would I after all ?

About Nee, I don't believe he taught sinless perfection, but far going sanctification.

Correct he did not, but that is because he only went so far in the teaching of theosis in the early church that did.

About the so called second blessing, I had mine after watching television, seeing a known artist who had come to Christ after his music performance fully in the Holy Spirit saying -- I would wish that Christ to become everything in your life -- It moved me deeply, wanted that also and I doubled my energy to understand Nee.

Wow so tv is useful after all!

I have believed in original sin for 45 years until I read the teaching of ancestral sin by the Orthodox. It just made more sense to me especially when they showed how weak the position of original sin is.

It is suggested that the doctrine of ancestral sin naturally leads to a focus on human death and Divine compassion as the inheritance from Adam, while the doctrine of original sin shifts the center of attention to human guilt and Divine wrath. It is further posited that the approach of the ancient church points to a more therapeutic than juridical approach to pastoral care and counseling.

(Ancestral Versus Original Sin | St. Mary Orthodox Christian Church of Central Square in Cambridge, Massachusetts)

Ancestral sin has a specific meaning. The Greek word for sin in this case, amartema, refers to an individual act indicating that the Eastern Fathers assigned full responsibility for the sin in the Garden to Adam and Eve alone. The word amartia, the more familiar term for sin which literally means "missing the mark", is used to refer to the condition common to all humanity (Romanides, 2002). The Eastern Church, unlike its Western counterpart, never speaks of guilt being passed from Adam and Eve to their progeny, as did Augustine. Instead, it is posited that each person bears the guilt of his or her own sin. The question becomes, "What then is the inheritance of humanity from Adam and Eve if it is not guilt?" The Orthodox Fathers answer as one: death. (I Corinthians 15:21) "Man is born with the parasitic power of death within him," writes Fr. Romanides (2002, p. 161). Our nature, teaches Cyril of Alexandria, became "diseased...through the sin of one" (Migne, 1857-1866a). It is not guilt that is passed on, for the Orthodox fathers; it is a condition, a disease. as above.

The Greek word diakosuni ‘justice', is a translation of the Hebrew word tsedaka. The word means ‘the divine energy which accomplishes man's salvation.' It is parallel and almost synonymous with the word hesed which means ‘mercy', ‘compassion', ‘love', and to the word emeth which means ‘fidelity', ‘truth'. This is entirely different from the juridical understanding of ‘justice'. (p. 31)

 

[Episkopos]

Uh no....Jesus Himself SAID the kingdom is within us.

That's a gotcha! :) See, I knew you would step on that landmine. And if I can so easily outsmart you, imagine the devil...

Why did I contrast the kingdom is within you with Jesus' command to seek first the kingdom?????

1. Why did Jesus say....the kingdom of God is within you...to the Pharisees? Well, He knew that future Pharisees would use that statement to justify themselves. He was laying a landmine.

2. Jesus was contrasting a physical kingdom with an EXTERNAL seeking....to a heavenly kingdom with an INTERNAL seeking.

But a carnal person will only understand the idea that they already have the kingdom in them...even if they are the worst kind of hypocrite. ...not that they have to seek first the kingdom of God by an internal seeking.

3. How does even the worst kind of hypocrite find the kingdom of God??? By an internal seeking. Seeking from within. It's the same process for everyone regardless if they are wicked or not. This is about access not opportunity. The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. All have equal ACCESS...not opportunity. The opportunity arises from the tribulation (pressure) caused by the hardships of this temporal world.

And yet it is through much tribulation that we are entering. It is yes, but not necessarily yet. Like where its says the promises are "Yes" in Him, and in Him "Amen." But the natural man can't grasp these things of course.

The irony...

 

[ProDeo]

Have you never asked the Lord for a fleece? A fleece (like what Gideon did) is where you want to be sure that it is God who is calling you to do something. It is a confirmation. Not in the existence of God....but in the proper understanding of what God said to you.

By the example of Gideon I once asked for a sign and the good Lord provided. So signs are not only for unbelievers.

 

[Episkopos]

By the example of Gideon I once asked for a sign and the good Lord provided. So signs are not only for unbelievers.

I have made many fleeces, and had them all answered. But I think you are still not understanding the difference between a believer seeking God in a fleece...and an unbeliever seeking a sign to overthrow his unbelief. The devil will only get involved in the show boating.

 

[amigo de christo]

Your assumptions here are so presumptuous and false I'm at a loss for words, wow.

The mind of an inclusivian is a mind that has been decieved to the upmost .
What did you expect sister .

 

[Episkopos]

The mind of an inclusivian is a mind that has been decieved to the upmost .
What did you expect sister .

What you are saying is that the inclusivians are upmostly decievians?

 

[amigo de christo]

What you are saying is that the inclusivians are upmostly decievians?

They are decieved to the umost .
HEY EPI
when a love was brought in that began replacing TRUTH , what THE HECK did you think was gonna happen .
WHEN the judge nots , the s eeker friendlies , the early pioneers of the inclusive order to make ready
the minds of the peoples , WAS NOT corrected .
WHAT DID YOU THINK was gonna replace TRUTH . EVIL WOULD and IT DID epi . OH IT DID .
Take a good long look around christendom
TAKE a good long look at even the key leaders of false relgoins .
THEY ALL pump the same LIE . the lie that has made V OID the gospel of JESUS
and they all holler GOD is love , we all serve teh same GOD
WHAT DID YOU THINK this was gonna lead them too . THE ANTI CHRIST and its peace plan . THAT IS
what it led them too .
And while their doctrines are not at all identical
THEIR LIE SURE IS . making VOID the dire need TO BELIEVE ON THE GOSEPL OF JESUS , the one that clearly says
YE MUST Beleive on HIM . THE LIE of an anti c hrist , the lie of many anti christs .
Satan is their father and now all he is doing is just merging all of his false religoins
along with the DECIEVED in christendom to become one peoples with one common ground goal .
HE is lying to us all , HE is lying to us all . AND i for one , AINT BUYING INTO HIS LIE .

 

[ProDeo]

I have made many fleeces, and had them all answered. But I think you are still not understanding the difference between a believer seeking God in a fleece...and an unbeliever seeking a sign to overthrow his unbelief. The devil will only get involved in the show boating.

Matt 16:1 And the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and to test him they asked him to show them a sign from heaven.
Matt 16:2 He answered them, “When it is evening, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.’
Matt 16:3 And in the morning, ‘It will be stormy today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times.
Matt 16:4 An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah.” So he left them and departed.

 

[bdavidc]

The passage totally describes a progressive testing system. It’s not a non-progressive testing system because the series ends at the second iteration! Put one foot in front of the other does not end with your second foot. Rather it describes a series.

Honestly, I don’t know what kind of doctrine you received to deny this. As I said, out Lord was tested more than once.

Wrangler, saying “the passage totally describes” a progressive testing system does not make it so. Show me the verse. You cannot, because Matthew 25 never describes the system you keep inserting into it.

The sequence is plainly stated: “After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them” (Matthew 25:19). The master returns and settles the account. Then he says, “Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord” (Matthew 25:21).

Where is the next test?

Where does Jesus say, “Now I will test you over the many things, and if you pass that test I will give you still more things to be tested over”?

He does not.

You are taking “I will make thee ruler over many things” and adding an entire doctrine after the sentence that Jesus never taught. Ruling is the reward for demonstrated faithfulness. The text does not call it another probation, another examination, another spiritual level, or another opportunity to prove yourself.

Luke 19 makes this even clearer. The faithful servant is told, “because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities” (Luke 19:17). Authority is being awarded according to faithfulness. Again, nothing is said about being promoted into the next round of some endless testing system.

And bringing up the fact that Jesus was tested more than once proves absolutely nothing about your interpretation of Matthew 25. Christ “was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin” (Hebrews 4:15). That does not magically turn the parable of the talents into the progressive spiritual ladder you are trying to build.

Your “put one foot in front of the other” illustration is not Scripture. That is precisely the problem. You have created an illustration, assumed the series continues, and then imposed that assumption on Christ’s words.

And as for wondering what “doctrine I received,” I do not care what label you want to put on me. Deal with the text. “What saith the scripture?” (Romans 4:3).

Matthew 25 says the Lord returns, reckons with His servants, rewards faithfulness, judges the wicked servant, and tells the faithful to enter His joy. That is what is written.

Your progressive testing system is not.

 

[bdavidc]

Nor does it have to repeat the series for it to be presented. The servant of 10 talents was given more, which doesn’t have to be a one and done reaction.

This is where your argument falls apart. You said it “doesn’t have to be a one and done reaction.” But that is not exegesis. That is speculation. You are no longer showing what Jesus said. You are filling in what you need the passage to say.

Matthew 25 is plain. “After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them” (Matthew 25:19). The account is settled. Then the faithful servant hears, “Well done, thou good and faithful servant... I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord” (Matthew 25:21).

That is judgment followed by reward. You are turning the reward into another test without a verse saying so.

Yes, the talent taken from the wicked servant is given to the one who had ten. But Jesus never says, “Now he must prove himself again.” You added that. It is like an employer saying, “You did well, so I am giving you greater responsibility,” and then someone insisting that must mean an endless ladder of examinations. No, it means the man was rewarded for being faithful.

Verse 29 says, “For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance.” Notice the words: “shall be given.” Not “shall be tested again.”

Your entire argument depends on what the passage supposedly “doesn’t have to” say. That should tell you something. Doctrine is built on what God actually revealed, not on what we imagine could happen next. Proverbs 30:6 says, “Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.”

So stop telling me what Jesus did not have to say and show me where He actually teaches your progressive testing system. If you cannot point to the text, then it is your idea, not His teaching.