Regeneration before or after saving faith

[Eternally Grateful]

There are many critics of Arminius who have no inkling of what he said, or didn't say; to include most of those who call themselves "Arminians". It is one thing for me to deduce from the "sin-and-win" approach I see from most of the Calvinists I know, and it is another thing to find that specifically taught in Calvin's writings.

The onus of proof is placed on the person making the accusation; not on someone to come in and prove that something is not there.

I have yet to meet a calvinist who teaches a "Sin and Win approach"

This label which has been placed on them are from people who do not like their theology and use it as a strawman argument to use against them.

That's why I did not come out and say Arminius taught a works gospel. but asked.. to many people assume things which are not true. and that's why these arguments get so heated. He says this group believe this (not true) and that group says he believes that (not true)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

affirming, that he unconditionally withholds grace from them; and that, by absolutely refusing to be “the author and finisher of their faith,” he is the absolute author and finisher of their unbelief, and consequently of their sin and damnation." ~John Fletcher

This is so unchristlike it is a terrible representative of the love of God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Understanding biblical salvation is not a waste of time.

this is sad.

His comment was not about understanding biblical salvation

it was about the arminian vs calvin debate that has been waging on for what seems like forever.

 

[Candidus]

I have yet to meet a calvinist who teaches a "Sin and Win approach"

This label which has been placed on them are from people who do not like their theology and use it as a strawman argument to use against them.

That's why I did not come out and say Arminius taught a works gospel. but asked.. to many people assume things which are not true. and that's why these arguments get so heated. He says this group believe this (not true) and that group says he believes that (not true)

You live in a closet if you have never met such people!

 

[Candidus]

This is so unchristlike it is a terrible representative of the love of God.

I agree! That is what Calvinism is!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If God did not ordain/decree the fall, then He allowed it to happen. He just sat back, allowed Adam and Eve to fall, and consequently us too, but it served no purpose. If God did not decree the fall, then it did not serve His purpose. That is deism. Deism teaches a god just sets back and watches things unfold.

Also, if God did not decree/ordain the fall, then the cross was plan B. Wanna go that far?

Hey you Got it

Since he wanted a RELATIONSHIP with his creation. He had to ALLOW his creation the ability to chose on its own. Because otherwise, the possibly of any deep relationship would be impossible.

Because of this, He tested mankind. And allowed them to fail, But he also did not leave men hanging, Knowing it was going to happen, he also provided a way for salvation. By decreeing before creation he would prove a way, and that way would be the son volunterring to become the sacrificial lamb.

And he CHOSE at that time to save all who would believe freely. Just like he CHOSE to allow manking to CHOSE to rebel freely.

Gd is soverign, As soverign God he is also willing to set aside some things for his creation. Like he set aside his life. Its called sacrificial love.

Understand this, and you may begin to understand why fatalism is so damaging to his character.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You live in a closet if you have never met such people!

maybe you can show me one? Maybe I have and it has been so few I forgot

Now I have met alot of anticalvinists who make claims they teach this..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Then if the cross was not plan B, then that means God decreed/ordained the fall. Foreknowledge is God doing something, as the Greek word proginosko is a verb. If means He was doing something when He foreknew someone. You are conflating His foreknowledge with His omniscience.

this makes no sense

God did not DECREE or ORDAIN the fall. He allowed it to happen. because otherwise, he would have to make robots. and remove all free will from his creation

You can not have a relationship if there is not freedom to chose. There is no love possible..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There are no splitting hairs from me my friend. God ordained the fall.

There was a man once who had 10 children, 7 sons and 3 daughters. It says he was blameless and upright, and turned away from evil. He daily offered sacrifices for his children and he said “Perhaps my sons have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.” One day the angels(sons of God ) came before God and so did Satan. When God asked him where he had been Satan said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.” God then asked him if he ever considered His servant Job. Satan said "Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side?" Satan knew he could not lay a hand on Job, his family or his possession, as God protected him. Yet God gave Job over into Satan's hands to do with him whatever he wished. Yet, God set the parameters of what he could and could not do. God was the One who introduced Job into their conversation. God was the One who gave Satan permission to steal his possession, kill his children, afflict him with boils from head-to-toe. God ordained Job's afflictions, yet Through all this Job did not sin nor did he blame God.

Then the Assyrians were used by God to throttle Israel in Isaiah 10. Then in 1 Chronicles 5:25 God stirred up the King of Assyria to attack Israel(this may or may not be the same account in Isaiah, as I do not know if He used them twice to throttle Israel). God uses evil to fulfill His will.

That is why the 2nd London Baptist Confession of Faith so correctly states...
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree

1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree. ( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

There you have it folks. God created evil, and not only created it, He ordains, or uses it to enforce his own desires..

God did not force Assyria to destroy the northing kingdom. Assyria wished to do this on their own. What God did is REMOVED his protection of his people Israel. and ALLOWED the Assyrians to do what they wanted to do to begin with.

The 2nd london confession if that is what that is, is seriously wrong

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The fall had to happen my friend. And God ordained it to happen. God uses primary and secondary causes to fulfill His will. When God stirred up the king of Assyria, yes it was because of their rebellion. God used a evil ppl to throttle Israel. God used Judas Iscariot to betray Jesus, so that the crucifixion took place. God even sent a lying spirit upon King Saul. God uses evil to fulfill His will, yet He remains without sin.

And when God uses these ppl to fulfill His will, they freely do it. this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.[Acts of the Apostles 2:23] It was God who handed over His Son into these evil men's hands to do with Him as they freely chose to do. No one made them spit upon Him, mock Him, yank His beard out, smack Him on His face, and crucify Him. We see man's responsibility and God's sovereignty in full display here. God used their wicked hearts to fulfill His will His Son be crucified.

He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?[Romans 8:32] This speaks the same truth that it was God who delivered His Son over into these wicked men's hands to do as they were pleased to do. And that which they did, they freely and gladly did it. And they will be held accountable for what they did on the day of judgment.

yeah, I mean there was no possibly man could have just chosen to follow God and never walk away like 2/3 of the angels did. God had to make sure man fell. so he could send his son to die that horrific death, otherwise, creation would have been out of order
I mean that was never going to happen.

You should hear yourself speak man.. I pray you do not really believe this stuff..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I agree! That is what Calvinism is!

Fall from Grace--The Teaching that a person can fall from grace and lose his salvation.

Do Armenians teach this? Did Arminian himself believe this?

 

[Renniks]

You do not understand biblical salvation or the verses you are mangling.

Translation: "The Bible doesn't mean what it clearly says."

 

[Renniks]

I have yet to meat an arminian who believes that a person receives eternal life at the moment of justification, And this justification is eternal. ie, does not have to be maintained, in fear it can be least.

Jesus said in John 6. whoever eats the food he came to give will NEVER hunger, NEVER thirst. will Never Die, Live forever, Has eternal life, and WILL be raised on the last day. While arminians I know profess these verses. they do not in reality believe them, because they teach salvation can be lost. Which is basically, a works based gospel (I have to do something in order to earn or at the least, maintain my salvation or it will be lost)

Uh-huh, and what do you do with Jesus telling us we have to remain in him for him to remain in us, and all the verses warning against falling away? We can't go off and fall into false teachings and believe in the flying spaghetti monster and still have eternal life. Neither can we maintain salvation by doing good works.

 

[Renniks]

Fall from Grace--The Teaching that a person can fall from grace and lose his salvation.

Do Armenians teach this? Did Arminian himself believe this?

Armenians are from Armenia. They probably teach a variety of things. I don't think Arminias believed salvation could be lost, but others took his beliefs to that logical conclusion. Some took it too far in that direction and did end up depending too much on works, IMO. There is a balance. We must remain in him, but that doesn't mean perfection is somehow possible in this life.

 

[Renniks]

"God didn't cause everyone's evil, but he certainly allowed it. That us where there is "allowing" in Calvinism."

Here is a response to that question of the "allowing" of God from the 1770's that you may find interesting.

"A mother conceives an unaccountable antipathy to her sucking child. She goes to the brink of a precipice, bends herself over it with the passive infant in her bosom, and, withdrawing her arms from under him, drops him upon the craggy side of a rock, and thus he rolls down from rock to rock, till he lies at the bottom beaten to pieces, a bloody instance of finished destruction. The judge asks the murderer what she has to say in her own defense. The child was mine, replies she, and I have a right to do what I please with my own. Besides, I did neither throw him down nor murder him: I only withdrew my arms from under him, and he fell of his own accord, in mystic Geneva she is honorably acquitted; but in, England the executioner is ordered to rid the earth of the cruel monster.

So may God give us commission to rid the Church of your Diana, who teaches that he, the Father of mercies, does by millions of his passive children, what the barbarous mother did by one of hers; affirming, that he unconditionally withholds grace from them; and that, by absolutely refusing to be “the author and finisher of their faith,” he is the absolute author and finisher of their unbelief, and consequently of their sin and damnation." ~John Fletcher

That mother is not the God who died once for the sins of all, he is a little god who just plays games with his creation.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

The fall had to happen my friend. And God ordained it to happen. God uses primary and secondary causes to fulfill His will. When God stirred up the king of Assyria, yes it was because of their rebellion. God used a evil ppl to throttle Israel. God used Judas Iscariot to betray Jesus, so that the crucifixion took place. God even sent a lying spirit upon King Saul. God uses evil to fulfill His will, yet He remains without sin.

And when God uses these ppl to fulfill His will, they freely do it. this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.[Acts of the Apostles 2:23] It was God who handed over His Son into these evil men's hands to do with Him as they freely chose to do. No one made them spit upon Him, mock Him, yank His beard out, smack Him on His face, and crucify Him. We see man's responsibility and God's sovereignty in full display here. God used their wicked hearts to fulfill His will His Son be crucified.

He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?[Romans 8:32] This speaks the same truth that it was God who delivered His Son over into these wicked men's hands to do as they were pleased to do. And that which they did, they freely and gladly did it. And they will be held accountable for what they did on the day of judgment.

What was it Jesus said in response to Pilate in John 19:10-11?

 

[SovereignGrace]

What was it Jesus said in response to Pilate in John 19:10-11?

BOOM!

 

[SovereignGrace]

What was it Jesus said in response to Pilate in John 19:10-11?

God is sovereign over everything but man’s will. God can create everything out of nothing, can place the stars, planets, moons, galaxies, wherever He is pleased to place them, tell Satan and his minions where, when and how to go, yet He can’t override their will.

Autonomy means self-gov’t. They want to govern themselves and tell God when it’s okay for Him to save them. Yet, He is even sovereign over their wills. And no, this does not make them robots or puppets. It means He can change their nature, and consequently their will, by divinely quickening them.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

That mother is not the God who died once for the sins of all, he is a little god who just plays games with his creation.

You're hostile in your mind towards the true God of Scripture. Remember when I told you how you fret over the just deaths of sinners? You call God unfair and are opposed to him in your mind. You've drawn up your own parameters for God to meet, or he can't be your God. John 6:66 comes to mind with Luke 19:14.

For the record of what John Fletcher said? Well, for one, he was hostile in his mind toward God as well and held a severely truncated view of God and rejected clear teachings of God's attributes. He was offended about God apparently according to his diatribe. But I can understand his dilemma a bit due to the fact he wasn't very acquainted with all the Scriptures concerning God's or mans nature.

Another mismomer of his is that somehow everyone is God's child. Nope. Read John 8:31ff and 1 John 3:10.

John Fletcher the Methodist got his teachings from the Wesley's who outright denied biblical doctrines such as predestination and election. John Wesley also held disdain for Abraham and David. So, based on that sandy theological ground of course their disciples would also have false views of God.

The bottom line in Scripture is that God is just in whatsoever he does with and in his creatures. Its not that you all have a problem with the fact he does this, which is proven in Scripture. No, no, you have a problem with God himself.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Then if the cross was not plan B, then that means God decreed/ordained the fall. Foreknowledge is God doing something, as the Greek word proginosko is a verb. If means He was doing something when He foreknew someone. You are conflating His foreknowledge with His omniscience.

Exactly correct.
This is almost a constant disconnect of a person from the truth. A confused view of foreknowledge guarantees error. There is no way of avoiding that.
The other two main defects in view are a wounded Adam, instead of a dead Adam.
The result is the person tries to believe both things at the same time.
Some posts have much correct information, and in the next post, contradictions and confusion.