Regeneration before or after saving faith

[XRose]

@SovereignGrace

Jeremiah 19:5, "Nor did it ever enter My mind." | CARM.org

I'm reading up on this so as to learn and grasp it. Plenty of time to read right now, pretty much everything is at a standstill.

There's nothing much to Jeremiah 19:5 written 485BC except teaching how the Jews joined the Canaanites in burning their babies.
The present Talmudics debate whether a deformed baby is an acceptable burnt offering to their god Baal-Moloch.
It is a repeated warning after
Leviticus 18:21 King James Version (KJV) Written 1400 BC.
21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the Lord.
Acts 7 has Stephen reminding the FalseJews how they worship Molech/Molech aka Baal.

 

[XRose]

I admit that verse in Jeremiah 19:5 is a toughie as I haven’t studied it out. But I do know this did not catch Him flat-footed. When it states, “nor did it ever enter My mind”, He didn’t stir them up to do this. Could this be secondary causes?

You seem to have a problem with comprehension.
'If GOD said 'it had never entered His mind' you claim He was lying as He had already considered it?
'Never considering' and 'not stirring them up to do it' are two completely different things.
He had certainly warned against following the Canaanite's burning their babies to Moloch but as He had told the Israelites they were His chosen race He assumed they would keep free of pagan practices - by FOLLOWING THE TEN COMMANDMENTS?

 

[SovereignGrace]

So, let em understand your view here: God creates "Bob" without free will, heading straight for destruction. Bob can do nothing about it- can't accept the Savior, can't reject the Savior either. Kind of like if God had created Bob thousands of feet in the air, and then Bob can do nothing about gravity and the splat at the end. Do I got that correct?

Bob, Mary, Joe, Roy, Jill, Harry, Ralph, Rudolph, Gary, Marlene, Justine, et al, do not have free will. Our wills are never free. Our will is bound to our nature. When lost, our will was enslaved to sin and Satan, seeing we were dead in sin. It takes God to change our nature, and by changing our nature, our will is changed as well.

”No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.”[Matthew 6:24] Man is either a slave to Satan or a slave to God.

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.[Romans 6:15-23]

No one is free in regards to their will. It says that when we were slaves of sin, we were free in regards to righteousness. What Paul meant was we were not righteous when we were slaves to sin. But no one has a free will. There is always something driving us to choose that which we choose.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You seem to have a problem with comprehension.
'If GOD said 'it had never entered His mind' you claim He was lying as He had already considered it?
'Never considering' and 'not stirring them up to do it' are two completely different things.
He had certainly warned against following the Canaanite's burning their babies to Moloch but as He had told the Israelites they were His chosen race He assumed they would keep free of pagan practices - by FOLLOWING THE TEN COMMANDMENTS?

I don’t have a problem with comprehension, okay? Don’t go there. I am trying to flesh this out as I haven’t studied this before. I don’t have all the answers to questions asked to me. I’m not afraid to say “I don’t know”. But @Preacher4Truth has given me a lot of meat to chew on and ingest.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Bob, Mary, Joe, Roy, Jill, Harry, Ralph, Rudolph, Gary, Marlene, Justine, et al, do not have free will. Our wills are never free. Our will is bound to our nature. When lost, our will was enslaved to sin and Satan, seeing we were dead in sin. It takes God to change our nature, and by changing our nature, our will is changed as well.

”No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.”[Matthew 6:24] Man is either a slave to Satan or a slave to God.

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.[Romans 6:15-23]

No one is free in regards to their will. It says that when we were slaves of sin, we were free in regards to righteousness. What Paul meant was we were not righteous when we were slaves to sin. But no one has a free will. There is always something driving us to choose that which we choose.

Ok: so God created Bob thousands of feet in the air and Bob can do nothing about it. Bob in this case is also one of those people God has not intention of saving, so Bob goes splat. God created Bob to splat.

Honestly, SovereignGrace, I acknowledge your view and I'm not going to try to change it... but I couldn't possibly disagree with you more passionately here.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So, let em understand your view here: God creates "Bob" without free will, heading straight for destruction. Bob can do nothing about it- can't accept the Savior, can't reject the Savior either. Kind of like if God had created Bob thousands of feet in the air, and then Bob can do nothing about gravity and the splat at the end. Do I got that correct?

When Adam sinned, we sinned, being in Adam. It plunged us into sin. It made our will bound in sin. And only the Christ can set the will free[John 8:36].

 

[Preacher4Truth]

You seem to have a problem with comprehension.
'If GOD said 'it had never entered His mind' you claim He was lying as He had already considered it?
'Never considering' and 'not stirring them up to do it' are two completely different things.
He had certainly warned against following the Canaanite's burning their babies to Moloch but as He had told the Israelites they were His chosen race He assumed they would keep free of pagan practices - by FOLLOWING THE TEN COMMANDMENTS?

God assumed they would keep his commandments?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Ok: so God created Bob thousands of feet in the air and Bob can do nothing about it. Bob in this case is also one of those people God has not intention of saving, so Bob goes splat. God created Bob to splat.

Honestly, SovereignGrace, I acknowledge your view and I'm not going to try to change it... but I couldn't possibly disagree with you more passionately here.

We are procreated, not created. God created Adam from the ground. We are procreated through intercourse.

You are blaming God when you need to blame Adam.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Ok: so God created Bob thousands of feet in the air and Bob can do nothing about it. Bob in this case is also one of those people God has not intention of saving, so Bob goes splat. God created Bob to splat.

Honestly, SovereignGrace, I acknowledge your view and I'm not going to try to change it... but I couldn't possibly disagree with you more passionately here.

You are acting like ppl deserve to be saved. If they deserve to be saved, or at least God attempting to save Him, that becomes an obligation and not grace.

 

[Renniks]

Be ye holy as I am holy. That’s a command. We are commanded to be as holy as He is. By using your logic, God is being deceptive, cunning, and seen as a deceiver, as He has commanded us to be just as holy as He is, yet we are unable to do so.

We are commanded to love the Lord with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. Yet none of us can do this. By using your logic, God is being deceptive, cunning, and seen as a deceiver, seeing He has commanded us to love Him with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, knowing we cannot do it.

God gave the Jews the Law to keep. He demanded perfect obedience to it. If they violated it, many were put to death. He knew NONE OF THEM could keep it perfectly, yet commanded them to keep it perfectly. By using your logic, God is being deceptive, cunning, and seen as a deceiver, as He commanded to keep the Law perfectly, and punished them for their disobedience.

You miss the point. We can do all things through Christ. But that requires us to choose reliance on him. It doesn't just happen to us, we must participate.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Ok: so God created Bob thousands of feet in the air and Bob can do nothing about it. Bob in this case is also one of those people God has not intention of saving, so Bob goes splat. God created Bob to splat.

Honestly, SovereignGrace, I acknowledge your view and I'm not going to try to change it... but I couldn't possibly disagree with you more passionately here.

You are making lost, God-hating ppl victims and not the rebel sinners they really are. You have an awful lofty view of man.

 

[Renniks]

Nope, sorry.

You specifically stated how you prepared your own heart to receive God and for doing this you were rewarded salvation. Nothing I stated was "bearing false witness."

Furthermore your belief that you were, while dead in sin able to come shows you believe you have the power and ability.

Please lose your false accusations out of our dialog. I never lied about you nor anyone else here.

Show me where I said anything about having the power within me and being rewarded with salvation because of it. You are just making stuff up.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

When Adam sinned, we sinned, being in Adam. It plunged us into sin. It made our will bound in sin. And only the Christ can set the will free[John 8:36].

And zero Scripture she provides, just an asinine and inane hypothesis: "There is the guy named Bob, you evil Calvinists, he wants to go to heaven and he wants his sins forgiven, but God won't let him have that. That's what you all teach!"

Um. No.

The thing of being created a 1000 feet in the air? LOL!!!

Here is the answer: John 6:37.

 

[Renniks]

You are making lost, God-hating ppl victims and not the rebel sinners they really are. You have an awful lofty view of man.

Why do y'all always believe you are not Bob? Chances are, if you are right, you are Bob, and just think you are not.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

We are procreated, not created. God created Adam from the ground. We are procreated through intercourse.

You are blaming God when you need to blame Adam.

Quite the opposite: Adam didn't create Bob. Adam had no power to save Bob. Adam didn't create the Tree of Good and Evil. Adam has no sovereignty here at all (to use a Calvinist term).

God, created the Tree, knowing what would happen. God did not stop anything. If you believe everything in God's design, and that God is all-knowing all-powerful: God created Bob to splat. That is God's sovereign decision.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

You are making lost, God-hating ppl victims and not the rebel sinners they really are. You have an awful lofty view of man.

To her sects official teachings God was just a man, so it's no biggie, we can become him too.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Quite the opposite: Adam didn't create Bob. Adam had no power to save Bob. Adam didn't create the Tree of Good and Evil. Adam has no sovereignty here at all (to use a Calvinist term).

God, created the Tree, knowing what would happen. God did not stop anything. An all-knowing all powerful God created Bob to splat.

And you’re showing you do NOT know out position. Good bye.

 

[XRose]

I don’t have a problem with comprehension, okay? Don’t go there. I am trying to flesh this out as I haven’t studied this before. I don’t have all the answers to questions asked to me. I’m not afraid to say “I don’t know”. But @Preacher4Truth has given me a lot of meat to chew on and ingest.

I'm teaching you. You sit and learn and do not kick back against the traces!

 

[Jane_Doe22]

And you’re showing you do NOT know out position. Good bye.

I am trying to understand.

Why did God create Bob and every other "splat" person?

 

[SovereignGrace]

And zero Scripture she provides, just an asinine and inane hypothesis: "There is the guy named Bob, you evil Calvinists, he wants to go to heaven and he wants his sins forgiven, but God won't let him have that. That's what you all teach!"

Um. No.

The thing of being created a 1000 feet in the air? LOL!!!

Here is the answer: John 6:37.

Bob the Builder?
Bob from the sitcom Becker?
My grandpa Bob?
Bob Newhart?