Regeneration before or after saving faith

[Preacher4Truth]

@Renniks has proclaimed in his errant gospel that God looked through time and decided to reward others with salvation if they in their power prepared their hearts for him. If they did this, if people do this first, then they're rewarded.

Well, that isn't grace nor the gospel. It is salvation "deservedly."

It's false to its core.

Now, anyone care to show me where Saul of Tarsus did this necessary thing so God would reward him? How about the case of Lydia in Acts 16:14? Care to show me where she did this? Care to show me anyone in Scripture who prepared their hearts so they could get their deserved, earned reward?

 

[XRose]

If God did not ordain/decree the fall, then He allowed it to happen. He just sat back, allowed Adam and Eve to fall, and consequently us too, but it served no purpose. If God did not decree the fall, then it did not serve His purpose. That is deism. Deism teaches a god just sets back and watches things unfold.

Maybe you all should read and believe Jeremiah 19:5?
Jeremiah 19:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:'

It clearly shows that GOD never imagined the Jews would join the Canaanites in burning their babies in HOLOCAUSTS they call Moloch.
It logically follows that He never imagined Lucifer would risk losing his position of most splendid angel by tempting Eve to sin.
It logically follows that He was so angry that Eve had listened to the lies of Satan that He cursed every woman to have awful pains giving birth in contrast to all animals and water mammals that just let their babies slip out.
GOD did not plan the fall as His plan was clearly stated at Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.'
GOD blessed them so if you say He knew they would sin then He was just as perverted as the wost sinners and His blessing not worth the air that formed words!

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Not one lost person has ever loved God. That’s a biblically impossible thing for them to do.

God never gives us things to do that are impossible. That would be unfair!

 

[Candidus]

John did not say they lost salvation, He says they were never of us,, ie, they never HAD salvation to begin with.

No he does not. It is absurd to say, "If you ever leave California, you never were in California." One can be in a Church, a member, attend every service, and leave that fellowship, but in doing so, they did not leave their salvation because it is not speaking about salvation.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Maybe you all should read and believe Jeremiah 19:5?
Jeremiah 19:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:'

It clearly shows that GOD never imagined the Jews would join the Canaanites in burning their babies in HOLOCAUSTS they call Moloch.
It logically follows that He never imagined Lucifer would risk losing his position of most splendid angel by tempting Eve to sin.
It logically follows that He was so angry that Eve had listened to the lies of Satan that He cursed every woman to have awful pains giving birth in contrast to all animals and water mammals that just let their babies slip out.
GOD did not plan the fall as His plan was clearly stated at Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.'
GOD blessed them so if you say He knew they would sin then He was just as perverted as the wost sinners and His blessing not worth the air that formed words!

I read and believe all of the Bible my friend. This did not blindside Him, as nothing catches Him off-guard.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

I read and believe all of the Bible my friend. This did not blindside Him, as nothing catches Him off-guard.

Now we have open theism heresy to deal with?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Now we have open theism heresy to deal with?

I admit that verse in Jeremiah 19:5 is a toughie as I haven’t studied it out. But I do know this did not catch Him flat-footed. When it states, “nor did it ever enter My mind”, He didn’t stir them up to do this. Could this be secondary causes?

 

[Preacher4Truth]

I admit that verse in Jeremiah 19:5 is a toughie as I haven’t studied it out. But I do know this did not catch Him flat-footed. When it states, “nor did it ever enter My mind”, He didn’t stir them up to do this. Could this be secondary causes?

Apparently by context it is something that never entered his mind as something to command them to do. It isn't that he was unaware, never knew it to be true.

 

[Renniks]

if a gift can be given back, the giver is insincere

when I give a gift to my child. its hers. Giving it back would be impossible because I would never take it back. I paid for it with my hard earned money and love.

Oh, but she can choose to throw it away. And that is what happens when people fall for false teaching and worship things other than the one true God.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

John did not say they lost salvation, He says they were never of us,, ie, they never HAD salvation to begin with.

No he does not. It is absurd to say, "If you ever leave California, you never were in California." One can be in a Church, a member, attend every service, and leave that fellowship, but in doing so, they did not leave their salvation because it is not speaking about salvation.

You are missing the intent and context of 1 John. John is contrasting true converts with false, thus 1 John 2:19 affirms and fits in said context. "They were not of us" implies they were not truly converted.

 

[Renniks]

we lose faith because the one we place our faith in becomes untrustworthy

can you name something God is untrustworthy in? Something he should not be trusted with, because he continually fails us, to the point we can possibly lose faith?

Many will fall away, according to scripture. Not because God is unfaithful, but because they fall for the enemies lies.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Apparently by context it is something that never entered his mind as something to command them to do. It isn't that he was unaware, never knew it to be true.

But if He has decreed all things to come to pass, and I believe He has, then this can’t be a primary cause of Him ensuring it happening. So, that’s why I asked if this would be an event decreed that He used secondary causes.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Many will fall away, according to scripture. Not because God is unfaithful, but because they fall for the enemies lies.

And yet the Christ said He will not lose one the Father has given Him to save. I will take His words over your interpretation.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You still don’t get our stance.

yeah Actually I do

The natural man will never come to God in their fallen state.

Your right, because they can't. Thats why God comes to them, and sends us out to them. So he can draw them to himself.

The gift of eternal life is not offered, as if He extends it for them to grasp. The gift of eternal is given to the dead sinner.

Then the words whoever believe in him are meaningless. The words call out to him are meaningless. The words chose this day who you will follow are meaningless. The words he who believes is not condemned is meaningless. The words the law is a tutor to draw us to christ is meaningless. It can not draw anyone, Because no one could follow where it led.

Sorry bro. To much which makes no sense.

There is a line “here”. The lost person is to the left of “here” and God is on the right. In your schema, God comes up to “here”, but never crosses over, as it violates their free will if He does. He holds the gift out and it’s up to the dead sinner to reach out and take the gift of eternal life. If he reaches out and accepts it, he is saved and given eternal life. If not, God’s hands are clean, as He at least offered to save them.

The problem with that scenario is you have a dead person reaching out for the gift of eternal life before they are given eternal life. The lost person is dead in sins and can not reach out for God’s gift of eternal life. It would be like going to a morgue and holding out a gift for a corpse to reach out and take hold of.

well then I guess the tax collector on his knees is a fabrication and not a real story
Saul being knocked off his horse. and Jesus calling out to him never happened, Because saul was dead.
Peter and the other 11 never followed God when Jesus called out to them, because he was dead.
Abraham, when God told him to leave his family never left. Because he was dead. and culd not make his decision. Especially since God did not tell him to much later he was declared righteous (justified) BECAUSE of his faith

Also, in their lost state, they hate God. They are hostile towards God. They are at enmity(an ill-will towards) with God. Plus, the lost person thinks the preaching of the cross is foolishness. They can not accept the things of the Spirit, as they deem it foolish. They also cannot understand them, as they are spiritually appraised.

Yep that was me to. Yet when God started drawing me, I slowly changed my perspective. I did not just do as many and say no God. I was actually interested, as many people like me were. and as peter and the 11 when they gave up everything they had and walked with Jesus. Something caught their attention.

Saul loved God also. He did not understand his situation because he misunderstood the purpose of the law. But he loved God. as do catholics. I know they do. My neighbors has a deep love for God. She is just been tricked into the false religious system of her church.

we see things differently bro.

That is why regeneration logically precedes faith, but I believe they happen simultaneously. And when He quickens them, they are gifted faith & repentance(all this happens together), they exercise them and are saved. The gift of eternal life is not offered, it’s given.

Impossible

1. Regeneration can not occur UNTIL the penalty of sin is removed.
2. The process of removing the penalty of sin from the sinner and declaring them innocent or "righteous" is called justification
3. The bible says over and o ver, we are justified by faith

hence according to scripture

1. God draws people to himself
2. Some, Like peter. come to realize the truth of the gospel. Others like Judas were curious about what Jesus offered. But never believed in him, thats when Jesus failed to meet his expectations, he walked away (as many of those who come to our churches, end up after walking away in unbelief. because they were never of us.
3. When one truly repents as a result of the work of God in their life. And come to faith, they call out to God to save them, Because they have come to the point in there thinking that they are sinners beyond hope and require a savior
4. By grace through faith, that dead sinner is justified. declaired righteous, Having had what was contrary to them, was against them, and cursed them nailed to the cross
5. As a justified sinner, the person who was dead in trespasses and sin is now made alive in Christ. as they were given the right to become Gods children through faith, Have been given eternal life. The seal of the spirit. and every good gift under heaven. including the security of knowing, What God has done, NO ONE can take away (no one includes ourselves)

this is the biblical process of how a sinner is drawn and through grace comes to faith, and by faith the sinner is justified, and made alive in Christ

 

[SovereignGrace]

yeah Actually I do



Your right, because they can't. Thats why God comes to them, and sends us out to them. So he can draw them to himself.


Then the words whoever believe in him are meaningless. The words call out to him are meaningless. The words chose this day who you will follow are meaningless. The words he who believes is not condemned is meaningless. The words the law is a tutor to draw us to christ is meaningless. It can not draw anyone, Because no one could follow where it led.

Sorry bro. To much which makes no sense.



The problem with that scenario is you have a dead person reaching out for the gift of eternal life before they are given eternal life. The lost person is dead in sins and can not reach out for God’s gift of eternal life. It would be like going to a morgue and holding out a gift for a corpse to reach out and take hold of.

well then I guess the tax collector on his knees is a fabrication and not a real story
Saul being knocked off his horse. and Jesus calling out to him never happened, Because saul was dead.
Peter and the other 11 never followed God when Jesus called out to them, because he was dead.
Abraham, when God told him to leave his family never left. Because he was dead. and culd not make his decision. Especially since God did not tell him to much later he was declared righteous (justified) BECAUSE of his faith


Yep that was me to. Yet when God started drawing me, I slowly changed my perspective. I did not just do as many and say no God. I was actually interested, as many people like me were. and as peter and the 11 when they gave up everything they had and walked with Jesus. Something caught their attention.

Saul loved God also. He did not understand his situation because he misunderstood the purpose of the law. But he loved God. as do catholics. I know they do. My neighbors has a deep love for God. She is just been tricked into the false religious system of her church.

we see things differently bro.



Impossible

1. Regeneration can not occur UNTIL the penalty of sin is removed.
2. The process of removing the penalty of sin from the sinner and declaring them innocent or "righteous" is called justification
3. The bible says over and o ver, we are justified by faith

hence according to scripture

1. God draws people to himself
2. Some, Like peter. come to realize the truth of the gospel. Others like Judas were curious about what Jesus offered. But never believed in him, thats when Jesus failed to meet his expectations, he walked away (as many of those who come to our churches, end up after walking away in unbelief. because they were never of us.
3. When one truly repents as a result of the work of God in their life. And come to faith, they call out to God to save them, Because they have come to the point in there thinking that they are sinners beyond hope and require a savior
4. By grace through faith, that dead sinner is justified. declaired righteous, Having had what was contrary to them, was against them, and cursed them nailed to the cross
5. As a justified sinner, the person who was dead in trespasses and sin is now made alive in Christ. as they were given the right to become Gods children through faith, Have been given eternal life. The seal of the spirit. and every good gift under heaven. including the security of knowing, What God has done, NO ONE can take away (no one includes ourselves)

this is the biblical process of how a sinner is drawn and through grace comes to faith, and by faith the sinner is justified, and made alive in Christ

The word draw means to literally drag off. Those He draw, WILL come to Him. That’s as simple as I can make it.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

But if He has decreed all things to come to pass, and I believe He has, then this can’t be a primary cause of Him ensuring it happening. So, that’s why I asked if this would be an event decreed that He used secondary causes.

Yet that still would allow for the fact he never commanded them to do such a thing, never did it enter his mind that way.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I don't know what people from Armenia teach but will say that Arminius made soft views both ways. Keep in mind that to oppose Calvinism was punishable by imprisonment and death, so Arminius did what most would do, is to be unclear and uncommitted on the issue. Ten years after his death, Calvinists, with a Calvinist Kangaroo Court, tried Arminius and Arminianism. The followers of Arminius, the Remonstrants, looked at what Arminius said and committed to the conclusion that "yes," a Christian could fall and be finally lost.

"Classic" Arminianism advocates, such as Roger Olson, do not hold to that final point and feel that they are consistent with Arminius at this point. I feel that the logical outcome of the first four points of Arminianism (which are not in dispute as agreeing with Arminius) inevitably, and logically arrive at the side the Remontrants solidified. Because there is some debate as to which way to go on the bifurcated nature of Arminius' statements on final perseverance, there is a lot of latitude in the world as to what is truly Arminian or not. Pegging down Arminianism to a Purist View is not as Easy as saying "unless you hold to the Five-Points of Calvinism, you are not pure." Calvinists can divide among themselves over supralapsarianism or sub-lapsarianism and infralapsarianism, but most would accept each other's purity as Calvinists.

I would classify Olson as a "neo-Calvinist" because he adopts a view connected to Calvinism, and most pure Calvinists would declare him to be an "Arminian" or "Neo-Arminian." How some will view it depends greatly upon their personal stance.

Thanks, I learned something today.

yeah, i have been called a 2 or 3 point calvinist also. and of course been called an arminian by calvinists.. soo

thats why I wish we would stop looking at doctrine and or what men said, But to the word and just discuss that.

I think it would be less heated, and alot less name calling.

 

[SovereignGrace]

yeah Actually I do



Your right, because they can't. Thats why God comes to them, and sends us out to them. So he can draw them to himself.


Then the words whoever believe in him are meaningless. The words call out to him are meaningless. The words chose this day who you will follow are meaningless. The words he who believes is not condemned is meaningless. The words the law is a tutor to draw us to christ is meaningless. It can not draw anyone, Because no one could follow where it led.

Sorry bro. To much which makes no sense.


well then I guess the tax collector on his knees is a fabrication and not a real story
Saul being knocked off his horse. and Jesus calling out to him never happened, Because saul was dead.
Peter and the other 11 never followed God when Jesus called out to them, because he was dead.
Abraham, when God told him to leave his family never left. Because he was dead. and culd not make his decision. Especially since God did not tell him to much later he was declared righteous (justified) BECAUSE of his faith


Yep that was me to. Yet when God started drawing me, I slowly changed my perspective. I did not just do as many and say no God. I was actually interested, as many people like me were. and as peter and the 11 when they gave up everything they had and walked with Jesus. Something caught their attention.

Saul loved God also. He did not understand his situation because he misunderstood the purpose of the law. But he loved God. as do catholics. I know they do. My neighbors has a deep love for God. She is just been tricked into the false religious system of her church.

we see things differently bro.



Impossible

1. Regeneration can not occur UNTIL the penalty of sin is removed.
2. The process of removing the penalty of sin from the sinner and declaring them innocent or "righteous" is called justification
3. The bible says over and o ver, we are justified by faith

hence according to scripture

1. God draws people to himself
2. Some, Like peter. come to realize the truth of the gospel. Others like Judas were curious about what Jesus offered. But never believed in him, thats when Jesus failed to meet his expectations, he walked away (as many of those who come to our churches, end up after walking away in unbelief. because they were never of us.
3. When one truly repents as a result of the work of God in their life. And come to faith, they call out to God to save them, Because they have come to the point in there thinking that they are sinners beyond hope and require a savior
4. By grace through faith, that dead sinner is justified. declaired righteous, Having had what was contrary to them, was against them, and cursed them nailed to the cross
5. As a justified sinner, the person who was dead in trespasses and sin is now made alive in Christ. as they were given the right to become Gods children through faith, Have been given eternal life. The seal of the spirit. and every good gift under heaven. including the security of knowing, What God has done, NO ONE can take away (no one includes ourselves)

this is the biblical process of how a sinner is drawn and through grace comes to faith, and by faith the sinner is justified, and made alive in Christ

You are misapplying Joshua 24:15. First off, this “choose you this day” was given to God’s covenant Jews, not all mankind indiscriminately. Joshua did not tell the Hittites, Hivites, Jebusites, Assyrians, Syrians, Egyptians, Philistines, to “choose you this day”.

I wrote a blog about that verse and I’ll post it here.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Many may have never hated God as they may have hated an enemy before they were saved. They probably didn’t go around saying, “I hate God!” But they hated God by their deeds. The Christ said, ”If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.”[John 14:15] The lost person has automatically broken the first one right off the bat by being lost and serving Satan, thereby violating the very first command. That shows they did not truly love Him in their lost state.

Romans 2:14
for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,

 

[Renniks]

@Renniks has proclaimed in his errant gospel that God looked through time and decided to reward others with salvation if they in their power prepared their hearts for him. If they did this, if people do this first, then they're rewarded.

Well, that isn't grace nor the gospel. It is salvation "deservedly."

It's false to its core.

Now, anyone care to show me where Saul of Tarsus did this necessary thing so God would reward him? How about the case of Lydia in Acts 16:14? Care to show me where she did this? Care to show me anyone in Scripture who prepared their hearts so they could get their deserved, earned reward?

First, you are bearing false witness, because I never said anything about a power with in us. Second, I can show you plenty of verses that speak of believing preceding salvation. But I know you look at all scripture through warped Calvinist lenses, so you won't see what a free Christian sees. One who is free to take God at his word doesn't need to see him as the unmoved mover of secular philosophy. The Calvinist God is distant and aloof, which is why it is so ironic when you accuse us of being deists. Once one gets closer to Jesus, once he gets close enough to the cross to smell the blood of his Savior, he won't be interested in pushing God back into the stratosphere.
Calvinism is a country club religion, but the catch is, only the chosen few are given thier irresistible invitations. Once you smell the blood of the One who died once for all, you will throw off the restraints of man-made religion, and kneel to embrace the rough lumber. I will pray for your eyes to be opened to the vastness of the love of Christ.

He left His Father's throne above,
So free, so infinite His grace;
Emptied Himself of all but love,
And bled for Adam's helpless race;
'Tis mercy all, immense and free;
For, O my God, it found out me.