Heresy within Christianity

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101G

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So, if we are talking about the daylight hours, we can say a day consists of 12 hours, but if we are talking about a full day we have to include the night hours as well
ERROR, the light which is called DAY is only when the 12 hours occurs, and not at NIGHT. but I commend you on your honesty in acknowledging what the Lord Jesus said about the 12hrs. in a "DAY". Look I'm not trying to be hard to get alone with, ok, but if we just say what the bible say and not add to it or take away from it we will all be on one accord. see, when you added the excuse a NIGHT is NOT a DAY. look just don't add ok. let the day be day and the Night be Night.
It is interesting that in Genesis 1 it talks of "evening and morning" of the next day
let me try to explain it to you again. "evening and morning" is a night time, meaning NOT SEEING, follow me now, scripture, Hebrews 11:3 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear". understand, the visible that we see comes from thing that we cannot see, the invisible world. understand science, quarks make up atoms, and atoms make up molecules, and so on up the chain. so can you see quarks?, or atoms? so this when God began to make something else, it was from the subatomic world, meaning NOT "SEEN". hence the EVENING and MORNING, meaning what you cannot see what make the things you can see in the "LIGHT". BINGO. understand now?

PICJAG.
 

Grailhunter

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I found out that God had a purpose in creating the cosmos and the world in six days and rested on the seventh when He could have created it in an instant. It is because He set up the seven day week for us. It is why we work for six days and then have a day of rest. It shows that His whole creation is to provide a suitable and healthy environment for us to live in, and that He is not expecting us to work every day and burn ourselves out, but have a healthy balance between work and rest. It shows that there is a definite purpose in everything that God does.
I understand the concept and so did the Apostles. They also understood that world was flat and diseases were caused by demons, and Christ would return soon. Even so, because they were wrong, that does not make the entire Bible wrong. But since He did not return soon, Christianity marched on, for 2000 years now. The Catholic Church and then the Protestant reform redefined Christianity more than 30,000 different ways, and they are not done yet.

Give it another 1000 years and Christianity will probably be redefined again. But first it has to last, and that is up to the youth. The old fogies will be gone and the they are not going to keep juggling things that contradict the reality that they live in and functions at all levels of their lives. You keep preaching that science knows nothing...well science proves itself real and works for them, everyday of their lives. What you are talking about sounds like fantasy to them. They have the choice of just walk away....and Christianity fades away. Your choice....are you going to help destroy the future of Christianity?
 

Waiting on him

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If scripture read that Noah tied his ass to a tree and walked forty miles, would this mean that skin is the most elastic substance known to mankind?
 

Paul Christensen

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No. It's not arbitrary. They worshiped the moon, and so they set quarters of the moon as time periods.

Other cultures have used 5 to 14 day weeks, and some didn't have weeks.



Yep. If Abraham had come from Italy, he would have used an 8-day week. Or if he came from Tenochtitlan, he would have used a 14-day week.
Oh well. You got the drop on me there! I haven't done a really comprehensive study on pagan religions and cultures.
 

Paul Christensen

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ERROR, the light which is called DAY is only when the 12 hours occurs, and not at NIGHT. but I commend you on your honesty in acknowledging what the Lord Jesus said about the 12hrs. in a "DAY". Look I'm not trying to be hard to get alone with, ok, but if we just say what the bible say and not add to it or take away from it we will all be on one accord. see, when you added the excuse a NIGHT is NOT a DAY. look just don't add ok. let the day be day and the Night be Night.

let me try to explain it to you again. "evening and morning" is a night time, meaning NOT SEEING, follow me now, scripture, Hebrews 11:3 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear". understand, the visible that we see comes from thing that we cannot see, the invisible world. understand science, quarks make up atoms, and atoms make up molecules, and so on up the chain. so can you see quarks?, or atoms? so this when God began to make something else, it was from the subatomic world, meaning NOT "SEEN". hence the EVENING and MORNING, meaning what you cannot see what make the things you can see in the "LIGHT". BINGO. understand now?

PICJAG.
The Hebrews reference has nothing to do with what Jesus said about "the day" and the days in Genesis 1. I think we are going from the sublime to the ridiculous in trying to prove a point. I think I will just take what Genesis 1 says literally and leave it there. If you choose to believe that God created only during the day time, and that He is dependent on light as we are, well and good. I won't argue with you there. So we will have to just leave it to your opinion and mine. Neither of us were there, so one opinion is just as good as another!
 

101G

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The Hebrews reference has nothing to do with what Jesus said about "the day" and the days in Genesis 1. I think we are going from the sublime to the ridiculous in trying to prove a point. I think I will just take what Genesis 1 says literally and leave it there. If you choose to believe that God created only during the day time, and that He is dependent on light as we are, well and good. I won't argue with you there. So we will have to just leave it to your opinion and mine. Neither of us were there, so one opinion is just as good as another!
when I heare this, I'm reminded of Amos 3:3 "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?". well Paul I see you missed the point I was making, as well as the boat. it's not about opinion mine nor yours. if one refuses to hear sound doctrine leave it alone this is not for you, ok. arguing over it will not change the word of God not one bit. so if you couldn't see the revelation, that's ok. as the scriptures states, on plant, another water, but God give the increase.

so long.

PICJAG.
 

Paul Christensen

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I understand the concept and so did the Apostles. They also understood that world was flat and diseases were caused by demons, and Christ would return soon. Even so, because they were wrong, that does not make the entire Bible wrong. But since He did not return soon, Christianity marched on, for 2000 years now. The Catholic Church and then the Protestant reform redefined Christianity more than 30,000 different ways, and they are not done yet.

Give it another 1000 years and Christianity will probably be redefined again. But first it has to last, and that is up to the youth. The old fogies will be gone and the they are not going to keep juggling things that contradict the reality that they live in and functions at all levels of their lives. You keep preaching that science knows nothing...well science proves itself real and works for them, everyday of their lives. What you are talking about sounds like fantasy to them. They have the choice of just walk away....and Christianity fades away. Your choice....are you going to help destroy the future of Christianity?
I don't remember saying that science knows nothing. Science knows everything that is knowable by observation and experimentation. Anything that can't be observed or proved by laboratory experiments has to be accepted by faith that it could have happened.

According to Richard Dawkins, an eminent atheist, if evolution teaching is continued in the churches as they are at present, Christianity will be dead in two to three generations. We are already seeing an exodus of young people 20-25 away from the church as it fails to convince them that the Bible is really true and to give them Biblical and scientific answers to counter the atheistic brainwashing they are getting in the colleges and universities, and even in the most prominent seminaries. If only 15% of 20-25 year olds are attending churches now, and is rapidly decreasing, what Richard Dawkins is predicting could very well come true. It is amazing that it takes an atheist to tell the truth about something that church leaders are either unaware of or are burying their heads in the sand about.

There is definite scientific proof that the Bible is accurate (although not comprehensive) in its science. We know that when the Bible was written, many scientific discoveries we know about today were not known then.

But the Bible does talk about the earth hanging in space and is a sphere, but these verses were not linked until it was actually discovered through more modern science that the earth is a sphere, hanging in space! The prophet who talked about future "broad ways" where vehicles with bright lights would jostle each other" knew just about relatively narrow wagon and horse tracks, and even the Roman roads of the First Century did not fit the description. But when we see videos of motor vehicles on broad motorways, in rush hour and at night, then we see that the prophet's vision was accurate. How would the prophet know about future motorways unless the Holy Spirit told him?

So, as science brings new discoveries about how our world functions, what the Bible has said about those things have been shown to be true. Yes, First Century believers thought the world was flat, because there was no scientific observation to tell them otherwise. It wasn't until Galileo used a telescope and discovered other planets which were spherical and so our world must be the same; and the RCCs nearly burned him at the stake for it!

It was interesting that Ray Comfort asked evolutionists to show one piece of evidence based on actual observation according to the scientific method, rather than just on faith, and out of all the evolutionists he asked, none of them could provide an observable evidence. All they could do is talk about millions of years, and Ray said that he was not asking for faith statements which could not be observed. This showed that evolutionists couldn't use the scientific method to show proof. All they could do was to give statement based on belief and faith, trusting that what the evolutionists were teaching was correct.

It is interesting that many evolutionists would not accept that evolution was a belief system rather than a scientific one, even though the scientific method of observation and experimentation was the only way to prove something scientifically. So it really showed me that evolution is not a science at all, because there is nothing in actual science to prove it. So, it has to be a belief system where people take it by faith.
 

Paul Christensen

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when I heare this, I'm reminded of Amos 3:3 "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?". well Paul I see you missed the point I was making, as well as the boat. it's not about opinion mine nor yours. if one refuses to hear sound doctrine leave it alone this is not for you, ok. arguing over it will not change the word of God not one bit. so if you couldn't see the revelation, that's ok. as the scriptures states, on plant, another water, but God give the increase.

so long.

PICJAG.
It makes no sense to me to take one reference out of its proper context and juxtapose it with a reference in a totally different context. The Hebrews reference defines faith as the evidence of things not seen. In actual fact, there is a link between that and Genesis 1, but not as you are putting it. None of us have seen what happened at the creation, and so we exercise faith in the literal text of Genesis 1 as the evidence of what we are unable to "see" or observe using the scientific method. But the Hebrews reference has nothing to do with day light and seeing with our eyes.

Also, my friend, you are weakening your position when you accuse me of not having sound doctrine. This is not about me or my doctrine. It is about the appropriate use of Scripture, and I would not use Scripture in the way you did to prove a point.
 

Grailhunter

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I don't remember saying that science knows nothing. Science knows everything that is knowable by observation and experimentation. Anything that can't be observed or proved by laboratory experiments has to be accepted by faith that it could have happened.

According to Richard Dawkins, an eminent atheist, if evolution teaching is continued in the churches as they are at present, Christianity will be dead in two to three generations. We are already seeing an exodus of young people 20-25 away from the church as it fails to convince them that the Bible is really true and to give them Biblical and scientific answers to counter the atheistic brainwashing they are getting in the colleges and universities, and even in the most prominent seminaries. If only 15% of 20-25 year olds are attending churches now, and is rapidly decreasing, what Richard Dawkins is predicting could very well come true. It is amazing that it takes an atheist to tell the truth about something that church leaders are either unaware of or are burying their heads in the sand about.

There is definite scientific proof that the Bible is accurate (although not comprehensive) in its science. We know that when the Bible was written, many scientific discoveries we know about today were not known then.

But the Bible does talk about the earth hanging in space and is a sphere, but these verses were not linked until it was actually discovered through more modern science that the earth is a sphere, hanging in space! The prophet who talked about future "broad ways" where vehicles with bright lights would jostle each other" knew just about relatively narrow wagon and horse tracks, and even the Roman roads of the First Century did not fit the description. But when we see videos of motor vehicles on broad motorways, in rush hour and at night, then we see that the prophet's vision was accurate. How would the prophet know about future motorways unless the Holy Spirit told him?

So, as science brings new discoveries about how our world functions, what the Bible has said about those things have been shown to be true. Yes, First Century believers thought the world was flat, because there was no scientific observation to tell them otherwise. It wasn't until Galileo used a telescope and discovered other planets which were spherical and so our world must be the same; and the RCCs nearly burned him at the stake for it!

It was interesting that Ray Comfort asked evolutionists to show one piece of evidence based on actual observation according to the scientific method, rather than just on faith, and out of all the evolutionists he asked, none of them could provide an observable evidence. All they could do is talk about millions of years, and Ray said that he was not asking for faith statements which could not be observed. This showed that evolutionists couldn't use the scientific method to show proof. All they could do was to give statement based on belief and faith, trusting that what the evolutionists were teaching was correct.

It is interesting that many evolutionists would not accept that evolution was a belief system rather than a scientific one, even though the scientific method of observation and experimentation was the only way to prove something scientifically. So it really showed me that evolution is not a science at all, because there is nothing in actual science to prove it. So, it has to be a belief system where people take it by faith.
Understand the observation thing and those that are opposed to evolution and the various agreements, but struggling against evolution as a science is waste of time....cats out the bag. The point is, if things keep going as the are the youth will loose interest. It does not matter to you or I...we are committed....the trick is....getting the youth committed. It is the future of Christianity that is at stake...not the thousands of Christian beliefs that are strongly devoted. This is a worldwide forum....the whole world....take a survey of the average age that spends time here.
 

Paul Christensen

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Understand the observation thing and those that are opposed to evolution and the various agreements, but struggling against evolution as a science is waste of time....cats out the bag. The point is, if things keep going as the are the youth will loose interest. It does not matter to you or I...we are committed....the trick is....getting the youth committed. It is the future of Christianity that is at stake...not the thousands of Christian beliefs that are strongly devoted. This is a worldwide forum....the whole world....take a survey of the average age that spends time here.
Okay, if evolution is a science that can be proved by the scientific method, show me one piece of evidence that is there as the result of observation. Just one.
 

Yehren

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Okay, if evolution is a science that can be proved by the scientific method, show me one piece of evidence that is there as the result of observation. Just one.

Lizards Undergo Rapid Evolution After Introduction To A New Home
In 1971, biologists moved five adult pairs of Italian wall lizards from their home island of Pod Kopiste, in the South Adriatic Sea, to the neighboring island of Pod Mrcaru. Now researchers have shown that introducing these small, green-backed lizards, Podarcis sicula, to a new environment caused them to undergo rapid and large-scale evolutionary changes.

“Striking differences in head size and shape, increased bite strength and the development of new structures in the lizard’s digestive tracts were noted after only 36 years, which is an extremely short time scale,” says Duncan Irschick, a professor of biology at the University of Massachusetts Amherst. “These physical changes have occurred side-by-side with dramatic changes in population density and social structure.”
...
Observed changes in head morphology were caused by adaptation to a different food source. According to Irschick, lizards on the barren island of Pod Kopiste were well-suited to catching mobile prey, feasting mainly on insects. Life on Pod Mrcaru, where they had never lived before, offered them an abundant supply of plant foods, including the leaves and stems from native shrubs. Analysis of the stomach contents of lizards on Pod Mrcaru showed that their diet included up to two-thirds plants, depending on the season, a large increase over the population of Pod Kopiste.


“As a result, individuals on Pod Mrcaru have heads that are longer, wider and taller than those on Pod Kopiste, which translates into a big increase in bite force,” says Irschick. “Because plants are tough and fibrous, high bite forces allow the lizards to crop smaller pieces from plants, which can help them break down the indigestible cell walls.”


Examination of the lizard’s digestive tracts revealed something even more surprising. Eating more plants caused the development of new structures called cecal valves, designed to slow the passage of food by creating fermentation chambers in the gut, where microbes can break down the difficult to digest portion of plants. Cecal valves, which were found in hatchlings, juveniles and adults on Pod Mrcaru, have never been reported for this species, including the source population on Pod Kopiste.
Lizards Undergo Rapid Evolution After Introduction To A New Home

And samples of mitochondrial DNA (not the lizard DNA, but very stable DNA of mitochondria within the lizard cells) show that these are indeed descendants of the original lizards transported there.
Italian wall lizard - Wikipedia

Roughly 180 years ago, some hawthorn fruit flies in the Eastern coast of North America smelt the fruits on apple trees -- a fairly recent import into that region from Europe -- and found them attractive. Today, nearly 2 centuries later, the flies have evolved into two distinct 'tribes'. One tribe, called hawthorn flies, prefer to use native North American hawthorn fruit to lay their eggs on, while the other, called apple flies attack crops of domesticated apples. Apple flies are currently one of the greatest pest threats to apple production in Northeast America and Canada.

But how did the split amongst these fruit flies come about?
...
The team identified 28 classes of nerve cells called Olfactory Sensory Neurons or OSNs that responded to different combinations of odours. Amongst this set, were a small collection of OSNs that responded to key chemicals from apple and hawthorn fruit. Previous studies had identified the two chemicals -- butyl hexanoate in apple odours and 3-methyl-1-butanol in hawthorn fruit odours -- to be most important in attracting apple and hawthorn flies respectively.

While testing this smaller subset of nerve cells with these chemicals, the researchers found a startling pattern. Just two pairs of OSNs located in the same area of the fly antenna, could be the cause of apple and hawthorn flies' specific preferences.

The results of this study, published in the journal Proceedings of the Royal Society B, essentially suggests that a tiny switch in the wiring of two channels in the brain -- one coding for detection of hawthorn odours, and one for apple, could have created a change in host fruit preference. This change in behavioural preference has seeded the beginnings of speciation by keeping apple flies and hawthorn flies as separated populations, isolated from each other.
Apple maggot fly: How an altered sense of smell could drive the formation of new species

And the genetic analysis shows that a change in allele frequencies is the cause:
https://msu.edu/user/bushfly/103_Feder_et_al_1999.pdf

 
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Grailhunter

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Okay, if evolution is a science that can be proved by the scientific method, show me one piece of evidence that is there as the result of observation. Just one.
I could explain it to you....but since you think evolution is one science....it would benefit you to go study it. There is a lot to learn in that process.
 

Paul Christensen

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Lizards Undergo Rapid Evolution After Introduction To A New Home
In 1971, biologists moved five adult pairs of Italian wall lizards from their home island of Pod Kopiste, in the South Adriatic Sea, to the neighboring island of Pod Mrcaru. Now researchers have shown that introducing these small, green-backed lizards, Podarcis sicula, to a new environment caused them to undergo rapid and large-scale evolutionary changes.

“Striking differences in head size and shape, increased bite strength and the development of new structures in the lizard’s digestive tracts were noted after only 36 years, which is an extremely short time scale,” says Duncan Irschick, a professor of biology at the University of Massachusetts Amherst. “These physical changes have occurred side-by-side with dramatic changes in population density and social structure.”
...
Observed changes in head morphology were caused by adaptation to a different food source. According to Irschick, lizards on the barren island of Pod Kopiste were well-suited to catching mobile prey, feasting mainly on insects. Life on Pod Mrcaru, where they had never lived before, offered them an abundant supply of plant foods, including the leaves and stems from native shrubs. Analysis of the stomach contents of lizards on Pod Mrcaru showed that their diet included up to two-thirds plants, depending on the season, a large increase over the population of Pod Kopiste.


“As a result, individuals on Pod Mrcaru have heads that are longer, wider and taller than those on Pod Kopiste, which translates into a big increase in bite force,” says Irschick. “Because plants are tough and fibrous, high bite forces allow the lizards to crop smaller pieces from plants, which can help them break down the indigestible cell walls.”


Examination of the lizard’s digestive tracts revealed something even more surprising. Eating more plants caused the development of new structures called cecal valves, designed to slow the passage of food by creating fermentation chambers in the gut, where microbes can break down the difficult to digest portion of plants. Cecal valves, which were found in hatchlings, juveniles and adults on Pod Mrcaru, have never been reported for this species, including the source population on Pod Kopiste.
Lizards Undergo Rapid Evolution After Introduction To A New Home

And samples of mitochondrial DNA (not the lizard DNA, but very stable DNA of mitochondria within the lizard cells) show that these are indeed descendants of the original lizards transported there.
Italian wall lizard - Wikipedia

Roughly 180 years ago, some hawthorn fruit flies in the Eastern coast of North America smelt the fruits on apple trees -- a fairly recent import into that region from Europe -- and found them attractive. Today, nearly 2 centuries later, the flies have evolved into two distinct 'tribes'. One tribe, called hawthorn flies, prefer to use native North American hawthorn fruit to lay their eggs on, while the other, called apple flies attack crops of domesticated apples. Apple flies are currently one of the greatest pest threats to apple production in Northeast America and Canada.

But how did the split amongst these fruit flies come about?
...
The team identified 28 classes of nerve cells called Olfactory Sensory Neurons or OSNs that responded to different combinations of odours. Amongst this set, were a small collection of OSNs that responded to key chemicals from apple and hawthorn fruit. Previous studies had identified the two chemicals -- butyl hexanoate in apple odours and 3-methyl-1-butanol in hawthorn fruit odours -- to be most important in attracting apple and hawthorn flies respectively.

While testing this smaller subset of nerve cells with these chemicals, the researchers found a startling pattern. Just two pairs of OSNs located in the same area of the fly antenna, could be the cause of apple and hawthorn flies' specific preferences.

The results of this study, published in the journal Proceedings of the Royal Society B, essentially suggests that a tiny switch in the wiring of two channels in the brain -- one coding for detection of hawthorn odours, and one for apple, could have created a change in host fruit preference. This change in behavioural preference has seeded the beginnings of speciation by keeping apple flies and hawthorn flies as separated populations, isolated from each other.
Apple maggot fly: How an altered sense of smell could drive the formation of new species

And the genetic analysis shows that a change in allele frequencies is the cause:
https://msu.edu/user/bushfly/103_Feder_et_al_1999.pdf
But they remained lizards. They did not change into another kind of animal. Therefore they didn't evolve at all, because evolution requires a change from one kind of animal to another, not remaining the same kind of animal with different characteristics.

Bad luck. You don't get the cigar. Try again.
 

Yehren

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But they remained lizards.

Just evolved lizards that had evolved a new digestive structure. It's possibly the fasted known case of a new structure evolving.

It's pretty much like someone pointing out that humans evolved from other primates, and someone says "But they remained primates."

It's not a very effective excuse, is it?

Therefore they didn't evolve at all

They evolved larger heads, stronger jaws, new behaviors, a new digestive organ, etc. If you suppose that's not evolution, we've found your problem.

We're used to that kind of dodge from creationists. "I'll believe it when a cat evolves into a dog."

"Remember what evolution is; "a change in allele frequencies in a population over time."

So both the wall lizards and the hawthorn flies are examples of evolution. No way to deny it.

You've confused evolution with common descent, which is a consequence of evoltuion.

There's a lot more. Would you like to see some more?
 

Paul Christensen

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Just evolved lizards that had evolved a new digestive structure. It's possibly the fasted known case of a new structure evolving.

It's pretty much like someone pointing out that humans evolved from other primates, and someone says "But they remained primates."

It's not a very effective excuse, is it?



They evolved larger heads, stronger jaws, new behaviors, a new digestive organ, etc. If you suppose that's not evolution, we've found your problem.
Showing me an example of a lizard that changed characteristics through genetic changes but remained part of the lizard kind of animal does not prove evolution at all. What you have to show me is observable evidence that one animal kind has totally changed to another, such as an amoeba changing into a simple sea creature, which evolutionists say happened millions of years ago. But something that happened millions of years ago doesn't fit into the criteria of my question, because the change has to be observed, and something that happened millions of years ago cannot be observed, so it doesn't fit the scientific method.
 

Paul Christensen

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There's a lot more. Would you like to see some more?
Yep! Bring it on! This is fun! I appreciate the respectful way we are both going about this.

The point of the OP, I think, was concerning the teaching of false doctrine (heresy) in the church, and I think I was the one who introduced the teaching of evolution in our Sunday schools and Bible classes as an example.

I realised that I needed more ammunition, so I ordered and received "Evolution The Lie" by Ken Ham. So I will have a good read to add more stimulating stuff to our great discussion!

The bottom line for me is that I am concerned about the effect non-Biblical teaching is having on our young people, and how the gospel of Christ is being corrupted to mean something that it isn't. This may make the difference between heaven and hell for many of them, and it would grieve me to see young people grow up with a false view of the gospel and the authority of the Bible and end up in hell when they die.

If we don't preserve the literal accuracy and authority of the Bible, then we can't preserve the purity of the gospel of Christ, because if young people stop believing that the Bible really means what it says, then they will stop believing that Jesus was a historical person, that He really did die for our sins and was risen from the dead. That will be disaster for them, and for the Christian church in two or three generations when us oldies will have died off, and no more young people have joined the churches. I can predict that in around 50 years, there will be major western cities where there will be no open Christian churches in them.
 

Yehren

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Yep! Bring it on! This is fun! I appreciate the respectful way we are both going about this.

The point of the OP, I think, was concerning the teaching of false doctrine (heresy) in the church, and I think I was the one who introduced the teaching of evolution in our Sunday schools and Bible classes as an example.

It would be like teaching nuclear physics in Sunday school. Not what God cares about.

I realised that I needed more ammunition, so I ordered and received "Evolution The Lie" by Ken Ham.

AIG lost a lot of credibility when they published a paper that altered the words of some astronomers to make it look as though they believed something that they did not. After a lot of criticism, much of it from other creationists, it was taken off the AIG website. But it remains a stain on their credibility as Christians.

(Edit: I discovered that not only has AIG removed the attempted deception, they now acknowledge that the creationist supernova remnant argument is faulty. So there that's to their credit.)

The bottom line for me is that I am concerned about the effect non-Biblical teaching is having on our young people, and how the gospel of Christ is being corrupted to mean something that it isn't.

Neither YE creationism nor the phenomenon of evolution have anything to do with the Gospels.

Young evangelicals seem to be less and less inclined to graft YE creationism onto Christian doctrine. Which is encouraging. It may be too late, however.