THE MYSTERY REVEALED TO PAUL

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Doug

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What the Apostles after Pentecost showed that we can do something about it - believe that Jesus paid the sin debt on Calvary, repent, and receive Christ as Saviour and Lord.

The twelve apostles did not preach the gospel of grace that Paul does.

It can be seen from Peter in Acts 2 what was being preached:

Acts 2:14 Peter is speaking to Jews and Gentile proselytes who are devout to the God of Israel see Acts 2:5 Acts 2:10 Acts 2:22

Acts 2:17 Peter says this is a fulfillment of prophecy for Israel in Joel in the last days before the day of the Lord.

Acts 2:30 Peter is saying that Jesus was raised from the dead, not for our justification as Paul writes in Romans 4:25, but rather to sit on the throne of David in his millennial kingdom on earth (Luke 1:32-33).

Acts 2:38 Peter tells them they must repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for remission of sins.
Peter and the apostles preached only the name of Jesus (John 20:31), and baptism in his name, for the remission of sins, not the redemption of Christ in his death for our sins and resurrection for our justification, and faith in his blood for remission of sins (Romans 3:24-25).
 

Doug

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We are able to work out which Scriptures are written for us, for our education but not necessarily direct instructions to us; and those Scriptures which are direct instructions to us
Yes, you are right
 

Doug

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I don't think that these were different gospels in the sense that they did not depart from the need to repent of sin and receive Christ as Saviour and Lord; but it was the gospel adapted to different kinds of hearers.

Jesus and the twelve preached only the name of Jesus. Israel had to believe in the name of Jesus that he was Christ, Son of God, nothing of the redemption by the cross (John 20:31 John 3:18).
 

Doug

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The Gospel is that God is Love, God loves us all and wishes the best for us. If we turn away from our sins through repentance, God will forgive us and all will end well for us. God will provide what we need if we have faith in His Love, Wisdom and Power, and if we are willing ourselves to obey the Golden Rule by loving others. God will provide.

That God is love is true, that is not the gospel.

I gave you the gospel before but here it is again, Paul tells us what the gospel is in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
We are not saved by placing our faith in his love, but God tells us our faith is in the redemption of Christ and his blood.
(Click on the verses to read)

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

We are all sinners who can not save ourselves.
See Romans 3:23 Titus 3:5 Romans 5:6

Christ died for our sins; He was our substitute, He paid the full penalty and debt for our sin by his blood sacrifice.
See 2 Corinthians 5:21 Romans 3:24 Romans 3:25 Romans 3:26

He was buried.

He rose again for our justification ( to declare us righteous) and forgiveness of all our sin. He gives us His righteousness and eternal life.
See Romans 4:25 Ephesians 1:7 Romans 4:22 Romans 4:23 Romans 4:24 1 Corinthians 1:30

All we have to do is believe the gospel.
See Romans 4:5 1 Corinthians 1:21 Ephesians 1:13

Believing is being persuaded that something is true.
See Romans 4:21

The moment you believe you have eternal life.
Titus 1:1 Titus 1:2 Titus 3:7

Trust the gospel of your salvation. Believe in Jesus Christ to have provided payment for your sins and to give you eternal life. Place your faith in Jesus Christ, in his blood, his death and his resurrection.
 
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charity

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I did not see a direct answer to my questions.

Does this mean someone can continue to sin, but God will pretend he's righteous? Or does it mean God can make that person righteous when he didn't know how to become righteous by his own efforts?

Can a person become righteous in fact? Or does salvation depend on God's pretending we are righteous when we are not? I believe if we have the right kind of faith in the True God, we can indeed become righteous in a real way that is not make-believe or pretend. Yet I get the idea that some who talk about the imputing of righteousness that we can never be righteous. "It's impossible, give up and expect God to 'impute' righteousness to you." Jesus called some men righteous, so Paul continues to confuse me.

Mt 13:17 - For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Mt 23:3 - That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Mt 23:29 - Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

I wait too for an answer to my other question:

How could the saints who died before Jesus lived ever be saved? How then can all Israel be saved?

The passages you gave confuse me about how Paul views "justification." I find it easier to grasp what Jesus said about who are justified. I think it's rather simple.

Luke 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Hello @Giulianno,

I have been trying to get online all day, and this is the first time I have made it. I acknowledge your questions, and will come back to answer when I can, but can't stay online now.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Giuliano

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That God is love is true, that is not the gospel.

I gave you the gospel before but here it is again, Paul tells us what the gospel is in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
We are not saved by placing our faith in his love, but God tells us our faith is in the redemption of Christ and his blood.
(Click on the verses to read)

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

We are all sinners who can not save ourselves.
See Romans 3:23 Titus 3:5 Romans 5:6

Christ died for our sins; He was our substitute, He paid the full penalty and debt for our sin by his blood sacrifice.
See 2 Corinthians 5:21 Romans 3:24 Romans 3:25 Romans 3:26

He was buried.

He rose again for our justification ( to declare us righteous) and forgiveness of all our sin. He gives us His righteousness and eternal life.
See Romans 4:25 Ephesians 1:7 Romans 4:22 Romans 4:23 Romans 4:24 1 Corinthians 1:30

All we have to do is believe the gospel.
See Romans 4:5 1 Corinthians 1:21 Ephesians 1:13

Believing is being persuaded that something is true.
See Romans 4:21

The moment you believe you have eternal life.
Titus 1:1 Titus 1:2 Titus 3:7

Trust the gospel of your salvation. Believe in Jesus Christ to have provided payment for your sins and to give you eternal life. Place your faith in Jesus Christ, in his blood, his death and his resurrection.
Thanks for trying to explain your position to me; but I think we're going in circles and you won't convince me because it looks to me as if you are saying Paul contradicts Jesus. I don't think I could believe both could be right if they are contradicting each other. But thanks for trying.
 

Giuliano

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Hello @Giulianno,

I have been trying to get online all day, and this is the first time I have made it. I acknowledge your questions, and will come back to answer when I can, but can't stay online now.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
No hurry. Take all the time you need.
 

Paul Christensen

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The twelve apostles did not preach the gospel of grace that Paul does.

It can be seen from Peter in Acts 2 what was being preached:

Acts 2:14 Peter is speaking to Jews and Gentile proselytes who are devout to the God of Israel see Acts 2:5 Acts 2:10 Acts 2:22

Acts 2:17 Peter says this is a fulfillment of prophecy for Israel in Joel in the last days before the day of the Lord.

Acts 2:30 Peter is saying that Jesus was raised from the dead, not for our justification as Paul writes in Romans 4:25, but rather to sit on the throne of David in his millennial kingdom on earth (Luke 1:32-33).

Acts 2:38 Peter tells them they must repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for remission of sins.
Peter and the apostles preached only the name of Jesus (John 20:31), and baptism in his name, for the remission of sins, not the redemption of Christ in his death for our sins and resurrection for our justification, and faith in his blood for remission of sins (Romans 3:24-25).
My intention is giving the most simple, baseline gospel that gets a person away from hell and into heaven is not to open it for debate. So I don't care whether Peter and the Apostles preached a different version of the gospel than Paul.
The basic gospel is that we are all sinners who have broken all the Ten Commandments and if we came before God in the judgment we would be found guilty and sentenced to God's prison without parole. But God has provided a way in which He can legally set the sinner free. He sent His Son Jesus to die on the cross to take the penalty for our sinfulness on Himself so God can forgive us and set us free from the guilt and penalty of sin. But we must put our trust in Christ as a person jumping from an airplane has to actually put on the parachute and trust it to get him down safely. As soon as we say "yes" to Jesus in an attitude of trust in Him, we pass instantly from death to life.

Is this not the gospel that the Apostles and Paul preached? What other gospel is there?

If you were witnessing to an unsaved person and told them what you told me in your post, would you be leading them to trust in Christ for their salvation or would you be just muddying the waters and confusing them?
 

Paul Christensen

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That God is love is true, that is not the gospel.

I gave you the gospel before but here it is again, Paul tells us what the gospel is in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
We are not saved by placing our faith in his love, but God tells us our faith is in the redemption of Christ and his blood.
(Click on the verses to read)

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

We are all sinners who can not save ourselves.
See Romans 3:23 Titus 3:5 Romans 5:6

Christ died for our sins; He was our substitute, He paid the full penalty and debt for our sin by his blood sacrifice.
See 2 Corinthians 5:21 Romans 3:24 Romans 3:25 Romans 3:26

He was buried.

He rose again for our justification ( to declare us righteous) and forgiveness of all our sin. He gives us His righteousness and eternal life.
See Romans 4:25 Ephesians 1:7 Romans 4:22 Romans 4:23 Romans 4:24 1 Corinthians 1:30

All we have to do is believe the gospel.
See Romans 4:5 1 Corinthians 1:21 Ephesians 1:13

Believing is being persuaded that something is true.
See Romans 4:21

The moment you believe you have eternal life.
Titus 1:1 Titus 1:2 Titus 3:7

Trust the gospel of your salvation. Believe in Jesus Christ to have provided payment for your sins and to give you eternal life. Place your faith in Jesus Christ, in his blood, his death and his resurrection.
I like Ray Comfort's approach to unsaved people. He puts the same thing in very simple and clear terms, and I have seen the videos of those he speaks to being convinced of the truth of the gospel. Watching the videos showed me that we use too much religious jargon and complicated terminology that tends to go over the heads or ordinary people. Putting the gospel in very simple terms as Ray does, is very effective, and his videos show it admirably.
 

Paul Christensen

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Jesus and the twelve preached only the name of Jesus. Israel had to believe in the name of Jesus that he was Christ, Son of God, nothing of the redemption by the cross (John 20:31 John 3:18).
If you were talking to an unsaved 18 year old, how would that convince him or her to repent of their sin and put their trust in Jesus as their Saviour?
 

charity

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@Paul Christensen
@Doug
Re: replies #63,#68,#69,#70

Hello there,

It is good to remember that the truth concerning The Mystery, revealed by Paul in his letters written following the revelation of God concerning it, in Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians particularly, was written to BELIEVERS, and not to the unsaved. It is not a message of salvation, (i.e., the gospel) but the truth concerning the Church which is the Body of Christ.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Paul Christensen

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@Paul Christensen
@Doug
Re: replies #68,#69,#70

Hello there,

It is good to remember that the truth concerning The Mystery, revealed by Paul in his letters written following the revelation of God concerning it, in Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians particularly, was written to BELIEVERS, and not to the unsaved. It is not a message of salvation, (i.e., the gospel) but the truth concerning the Church which is the Body of Christ.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
I get that. But what I see is a confusion as to what the gospel of Christ really is. So my question in post #20 is for someone to say what gospel would they share with an unsaved 18 yr old.
 

charity

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1) Does this mean someone can continue to sin, but God will pretend he's righteous?
2) Or does it mean God can make that person righteous when he didn't know how to become righteous by his own efforts?

3) Can a person become righteous in fact?
4) Or does salvation depend on God's pretending we are righteous when we are not?
5) How could the saints who died before Jesus lived ever be saved?
6) How then can all Israel be saved?
Hello @Giuliano,

The first four questions concerning God's imputation of righteousness to those who put their trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Lord, can be found in such passages as Romans 6, and related passages. It is all a matter of the reckoning of faith, by God and by the believer in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Questions 5 and 6, can be answered with the words, 'by faith'. See Hebrews 11, and the list of those who believed God during the days of the Old Testament Scriptures, like Abraham, to whom faith was reckoned to for righteousness. The same will be the case for Israel in that day when all will be saved. It is all of faith. Faith in the sacrificial work of Christ, who took our sin upon Himself, and died in our place, that we may have the righteous of God in Him.

I have not got the time, or even the ability to explain these things in my own words, only the word of God prayerfully considered can impress itself upon your heart and mind and answer these questions truthfully. It is not my understanding that you need, but God's, Giuliano.

I can do no more.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

Giuliano

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Hello @Giuliano,

The first four questions concerning God's imputation of righteousness to those who put their trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Lord, can be found in such passages as Romans 6, and related passages. It is all a matter of the reckoning of faith, by God and by the believer in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Questions 5 and 6, can be answered with the words, 'by faith'. See Hebrews 11, and the list of those who believed God during the days of the Old Testament Scriptures, like Abraham, to whom faith was reckoned to for righteousness. The same will be the case for Israel in that day when all will be saved. It is all of faith. Faith in the sacrificial work of Christ, who took our sin upon Himself, and died in our place, that we may have the righteous of God in Him.

I have not got the time, or even the ability to explain these things in my own words, only the word of God prayerfully considered can impress itself upon your heart and mind and answer these questions truthfully. It is not my understanding that you need, but God's, Giuliano.

I can do no more.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
I am disappointed that you did not give me clearer answers.
 

charity

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I am disappointed that you did not give me clearer answers.
Forgive me @Giuliano, but my mind is tired, and I can't concentrate today, I gave what I could, and directed you to the Word of God, which alone can give the answers to the questions you asked.

Thank you
Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
Chris
 

Giuliano

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Forgive me @Giuliano, but my mind is tired, and I can't concentrate today, I gave what I could, and directed you to the Word of God, which alone can give the answers to the questions you asked.

Thank you
Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
Chris
It is okay, really. I think I already have the answers I need. I was just curious about your views.
 

Doug

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Thanks for trying to explain your position to me; but I think we're going in circles and you won't convince me because it looks to me as if you are saying Paul contradicts Jesus. I don't think I could believe both could be right if they are contradicting each other. But thanks for trying.

The last thing i will say is that I see what you are saying, there are contradictions. The contradictions arise by our failure to determine who Jesus was ministering to. Jesus said he was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel (Matthew 15:24). Jesus came preaching law keeping to Israel to be righteous in order to enter into the kingdom on earth (Matthew 19:17 Matthew 5:19). We are not in this dispensation now, the gospel of the kingdom has been postponed. We are not under the law and covenants of Israel, we are under grace as revealed by Jesus to Paul.
 

Doug

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My intention is giving the most simple, baseline gospel that gets a person away from hell and into heaven is not to open it for debate. So I don't care whether Peter and the Apostles preached a different version of the gospel than Paul.
The basic gospel is that we are all sinners who have broken all the Ten Commandments and if we came before God in the judgment we would be found guilty and sentenced to God's prison without parole. But God has provided a way in which He can legally set the sinner free. He sent His Son Jesus to die on the cross to take the penalty for our sinfulness on Himself so God can forgive us and set us free from the guilt and penalty of sin. But we must put our trust in Christ as a person jumping from an airplane has to actually put on the parachute and trust it to get him down safely. As soon as we say "yes" to Jesus in an attitude of trust in Him, we pass instantly from death to life.

Is this not the gospel that the Apostles and Paul preached? What other gospel is there?

If you were witnessing to an unsaved person and told them what you told me in your post, would you be leading them to trust in Christ for their salvation or would you be just muddying the waters and confusing them?

Yes, that is the gospel that saves, and it came from what Christ has revealed to us through Paul.
In saying that the apostles preached a version of this is not so and people muddy the waters by mixing it all together.
 

Doug

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If you were talking to an unsaved 18 year old, how would that convince him or her to repent of their sin and put their trust in Jesus as their Saviour?
We are all sinners and can not save ourselves from the wrath of God. Jesus died for our sins, to pay the penalty of our sin, and rose from the dead to give us eternal life. All we have to do is believe that and believe Christ has done all we need to be right with God and go to heaven.
 

Paul Christensen

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Yes, that is the gospel that saves, and it came from what Christ has revealed to us through Paul.
In saying that the apostles preached a version of this is not so and people muddy the waters by mixing it all together.
What I am saying is that the Apostles didn't preach a different gospel than Paul. It depends on the particular group of listeners. A missionary to Papua New Guinea native ex-headhunters, is not going to word the gospel in the same way as someone street-preaching on a New York street.