Heresy within Christianity

[Paul Christensen]

Quite the opposite. No one can truly understand the Gospel until he or she believes in the Genesis creation account. And no one can be saved unless they obey the Gospel.

EVOLUTION IS TOTAL NONSENSE -- A HOAX. EVEN DARWIN ADMITTED IT.

Actually, evolution was believed long before Darwin. When Paul preached the gospel on Mars Hill to the Greeks, he didn't use the Jewish Scriptures because they wouldn't have had any knowledge of them, nor would they have had the same world view as the Jews. Early Greek belief was based on evolution, and this is why Paul started with the unknown God who was the Creator of the world. He challenged their evolutionary foundation of belief before going on to tell them about Jesus and His resurrection.

So, evolution was a part of the pagan Greek world view. So all that Darwin did was to regurgitate that pagan belief.

 

[Grailhunter]

 

[Paul Christensen]

My dad was dying of lung cancer, and his doctor asked him if he was ready to die.

"Are you planning to kill me?"

I was telling a humorous story. What you are saying is something very serious and I wouldn't want to appear insensitive to you in telling you my funny anecdote.

Sadly, my father died of cardiac arrest three months after a mild heart attack. He went suddenly and unexpectedly, and never had a chance to think about where he is going to spend eternity. But in the late 1960s when I first became a Christian, he and I had some quite interesting discussions about the gospel and I know he heard the gospel quite clearly. Interestingly, his father was a converted believer, but had a work accident and ended up in care (a long story), and so dad was a bit too young to really understand the gospel at that stage. He did tell me a story about throwing stink bombs in church! His older sister blamed God and was very opposed to the gospel. But his older brother did, I believe, receive Christ and was a solid member of a Presbyterian church until he passed away at the age of 91. It is interesting that my uncle Peter was on the Achilles as an engineering office during WW2, and narrowly escaped when a Japanese shell hit the gun turret he had just exited.

Just thought I'd give you a bit of background info to show that I am not insensitive to people dying, but enjoy making fun of funny things that Christian workers do at times.

 

[Grailhunter]

People with little bubbles can be the masters of their little bubble because there is so little to know.

 

[Yehren]

Quite the opposite. No one can truly understand the Gospel until he or she believes in the Genesis creation account.

But they don't have to believe in your revision of the Genesis account. Fortunately, God will not judge you on your theology. Jesus makes it clear in Matthew 25, what will save you.
Matthew 25:31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. [32] And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. [34] Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in: [36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Love God and love your neighbor; everything else follows from that. Theology will not save you. There's no secret handshake, no magic formula, not "right church" to be in. Just follow the two great commandments, and you will be saved, Jesus says.

And no one can be saved unless they obey the Gospel.

The Gospels are not orders or commandments. They are lessons. Pay attention. And do the will of the Father; if you do, you will enter the kingdom of Heaven, Jesus says. He's right, you know.

EVOLUTION IS TOTAL NONSENSE -- A HOAX.

It's directly observed. You've confused evolution with something else. Usually creationists get it mixed up with consequences of evolution like common descent, or their own imaginary ideas of what it is. What do you think it is?

EVEN DARWIN ADMITTED IT.

Here's "Answers in Genesis" and their warning about this one:

Beyond these denials, if the tale were true, why did Darwin’s wife Emma not rejoice in this? She was always troubled by what she perceived as the godless nature of his views. If he indeed repented, why did she not make this known? Also, if the story were credible, why did Lady Hope wait 33 years before relating it, and even then, relating it in a country across the ocean?


Given the weight of evidence, it must be concluded that Lady Hope’s story is unsupportable, even if she did actually visit Darwin. He never became a Christian, and he never renounced evolution. As much as we would like to believe that he died with a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, it is much more likely that he didn’t. It is unfortunate that the story continues to be promoted by many sincere people who use this in an effort to discredit evolution when many other great arguments exist, including the greatest: the Bible.
Darwin’s Deathbed Conversion—a Legend?

While Darwin was an orthodox Anglican Christian when he wrote his book (even in one edition writing that God created the first living things), he claimed to be leaning toward agnosticism in his later years. The stories are, as AIG acknowledges, fabrications.

 

[Grailhunter]

 

[Yehren]

I was telling a humorous story. What you are saying is something very serious and I wouldn't want to appear insensitive to you in telling you my funny anecdote.

Didn't suggest you did. That was my dad's idea of humor. He got through the North African and Italian campaigns before his second Purple Heart put him out of the war permanently. He carried a bit of shrapnel in one ventricle of his brain the rest of his life. He said that after seeing even a few years of the war, death didn't scare him any more.

He did eventually reconcile to God, and died looking to heaven. Which is why he wasn't afraid to go. I can see your motives are not in any way unkind.

 

[Yehren]

People with little bubbles can be the masters of their little bubble because there is so little to know.

Dunning-Krueger effect. Dumb people think they're smarter than average.

It makes sense. Everything looks simple when you don't know anything about it. Someone who has a pretty good grasp of a subject is more likely to check the literature first before expressing an opinion on it, just to be safe.

 

[Enoch111]

That would be wrong as wrong as you can get!

"Nothing at first can appear more difficult to believe than that the more complex organs and instincts have been perfected, not by means superior to [HE REFUSES TO SAY "GOD"], though analogous with, human reason, but by the accumulation of innumerable slight variations, each good for the individual possessor... It is, no doubt, extremely difficult even to conjecture by what gradations many structures have been perfected... As according to the theory of natural selection an interminable number of intermediate forms must have existed, linking together all the species in each group by gradations as fine as our existing varieties, it may be asked, Why do we not see these linking forms all around us? ..."

These are all Darwin's comments, yet he tries to brush away all the objections with pure speculation.

 

[Grailhunter]

"Nothing at first can appear more difficult to believe than that the more complex organs and instincts have been perfected, not by means superior to [HE REFUSES TO SAY "GOD"], though analogous with, human reason, but by the accumulation of innumerable slight variations, each good for the individual possessor... It is, no doubt, extremely difficult even to conjecture by what gradations many structures have been perfected... As according to the theory of natural selection an interminable number of intermediate forms must have existed, linking together all the species in each group by gradations as fine as our existing varieties, it may be asked, Why do we not see these linking forms all around us? ..."

These are all Darwin's comments, yet he tries to brush away all the objections with pure speculation.

You are the master of your bubble.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Didn't suggest you did. That was my dad's idea of humor. He got through the North African and Italian campaigns before his second Purple Heart put him out of the war permanently. He carried a bit of shrapnel in one ventricle of his brain the rest of his life. He said that after seeing even a few years of the war, death didn't scare him any more.

He did eventually reconcile to God, and died looking to heaven. Which is why he wasn't afraid to go. I can see your motives are not in any way unkind.

My dad was in the Pacific with the NZ Artillery. He still had his cap badge, plus a US Marine one he got as a souvenir. We had a close friend of the family who was with the NZ Division in North Africa and he got shot in the heart during the battle of El Alamein. While he was lying on the ground, a mortar shell burst right beside him which added to his injury. He survived, and still had the bullet in the wall of his heart until he died in his 80s. It is so interesting that our fathers and friends so much in common.

 

[Yehren]

"Nothing at first can appear more difficult to believe than that the more complex organs and instincts have been perfected, not by means superior to, though analogous with, human reason, but by the accumulation of innumerable slight variations, each good for the individual possessor...

You've been had by people you should never have trusted...

Nothing at first can appear more difficult to believe than that the more complex organs and instincts have been perfected, not by means superior to, though analogous with, human reason, but by the accumulation of innumerable slight variations, each good for the individual possessor. Nevertheless, this difficulty, though appearing to our imagination insuperably great, cannot be considered real if we admit the following propositions, namely, that all parts of the organisation and instincts offer, at least individual differences--that there is a struggle for existence leading to the preservation of profitable deviations of structure or instinct--and, lastly, that gradations in the state of perfection of each organ may have existed, each good of its kind. The truth of these propositions cannot, I think, be disputed.
Charles Darwin, On the Origin of Species, chapter XV

I'm sure you didn't know this, and honestly presented what you thought was an accurate representation of Darwin's thought. But as you see, he very clearly did not think evolution was unlikely or unreasonable.

This is why quote-mining is so dangerous. If it's used on people who actually know what they are talking about, it can backfire on you. Again, I'm sure your motives were honest, but it's clear that whoever gave you that doctored quote did not have honest motives.

 

[Yehren]

It is so interesting that our fathers and friends so much in common.

"The Greatest Generation", they say. It very well might be so.

 

[Taken]

You aren't God.

That would have been a relevant statement, IF, I had made that claim...which I have made no such stupid claim.

"Kind" is a modern religious doctrine.

LOL ...So modern it is expressly Revealed in the First Book of Scripture nearly 20 times...nearly 6,000 years ago.

Obviously your idea of Modern (6,000 years ago) and my understanding of Modern, (as being present time/ or recent time)...is

Yep. It was first taken up in the early 1900s

Modern...(to you) is one hundred and twenty years ago). That's funny.

KJV Dictionary Definition: kind

kind

KIND, n.


1. Race; genus; generic class; as in mankind or humankind. In technical language, kind answers to genus.
KIND - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

But they can't agree on this, because it's a religious doctrine, and not testable. The ICR and AIG, for example, think it applies to species, genus, and family, and maybe farther than that.

Thanks, However IF you were so inclined to read Genesis as I suggested you should have learned the Knowledge of what God was teaching of What Distinguishes ONE Distinct KIND of thing from an Other Distinct KIND of thing...
And:
Each DISTINCT KIND of thing Reproduces Its own DISTINCT KIND of thing.

It's used in many different ways in scripture. And by YE creationists, who think new species, genera, and families developed after the "flood."

So? Many new species of the Same KIND of Animals, Plants, Fish, Birds, and Insects Have been procreated from their same KINDS of Thing since the Great Flood.

Four Female Humans and Four Male Humans were lifted above the Earth, Saved from Death of Drowning...and Continued Reproducing their Distinct Same KIND of Thing.

That would put humans and chimpanzees in the same "kind." Rock and a hard place for YE.

No.

Genetics shows that every organism on Earth has a common ancestor.

No.
Ancestors are connected By Being from the same KIND of thing.
The Common Connection Between All of Gods Earthly Creations...Is they All came OUT of the Earth.
They all Contain elements of the Earth and are sustained Naturally, By the Same Elements IN the Earth...
It does not MAKE Animals and Plants and Humans all Ancestors...LOL.

You're still stuck on orthogenesis.

No. I'm stuck on the Truth of God and you are stuck on the Theories of Scientists, whose manmade instruments have convinced you they Hold the Truth.

I have already acknowledge I do not agree with you. I am content with Trusting Gods Truth.

You can call me Wrong all day long, it doesn't change a thing, except that you might think going beyond disagreeing, makes you Right, which it does not.

All eukaryotes, including plants and animal, have a common ancestor.

LOL...Common ANCESTOR?
Who is that Common Ancestor? DIRT? LOL

By now, you should realize that you're at a huge disadvantage, because you don't know about any of the science or even the facts in this issue. Why not take a little time to learn about scripture and biology, and then try again? You'd be a lot more effective against science if you knew what it is.

Maybe I should go to the ZOO and ask YOUR ancestors tell me all about what you have Learned from them, that you cannot explain.

I'm curious, What does YOUR Ancestors think about YOU Eating Them? LOL.

 

[Paul Christensen]

That would have been a relevant statement, IF, I had made that claim...which I have made no such stupid claim.



LOL ...So modern it is expressly Revealed in the First Book of Scripture nearly 20 times...nearly 6,000 years ago.

Obviously your idea of Modern (6,000 years ago) and my understanding of Modern, (as being present time/ or recent time)...is



Modern...(to you) is one hundred and twenty years ago). That's funny.



Thanks, However IF you were so inclined to read Genesis as I suggested you should have learned the Knowledge of what God was teaching of What Distinguishes ONE Distinct KIND of thing from an Other Distinct KIND of thing...
And:
Each DISTINCT KIND of thing Reproduces Its own DISTINCT KIND of thing.



So? Many new species of the Same KIND of Animals, Plants, Fish, Birds, and Insects Have been procreated from their same KINDS of Thing since the Great Flood.

Four Female Humans and Four Male Humans were lifted above the Earth, Saved from Death of Drowning...and Continued Reproducing their Distinct Same KIND of Thing.



No.



No.
Ancestors are connected By Being from the same KIND of thing.
The Common Connection Between All of Gods Earthly Creations...Is they All came OUT of the Earth.
They all Contain elements of the Earth and are sustained Naturally, By the Same Elements IN the Earth...
It does not MAKE Animals and Plants and Humans all Ancestors...LOL.



No. I'm stuck on the Truth of God and you are stuck on the Theories of Scientists, whose manmade instruments have convinced you they Hold the Truth.

I have already acknowledge I do not agree with you. I am content with Trusting Gods Truth.

You can call me Wrong all day long, it doesn't change a thing, except that you might think going beyond disagreeing, makes you Right, which it does not.



LOL...Common ANCESTOR?
Who is that Common Ancestor? DIRT? LOL



Maybe I should go to the ZOO and ask YOUR ancestors tell me all about what you have Learned from them, that you cannot explain.

I'm curious, What does YOUR Ancestors think about YOU Eating Them? LOL.

Our foundation is God's literal Word. It is the absolute truth for us. As long as we stay on that foundation and not try and base our debates away from that foundation, we will not be defeated. As soon as any of us try to deal with evolution away from our foundation of literal Bible trust, we have lost.

Evolution is not new. It was a integral part of the ancient Greek pagan world view.

One prominent evolutionist said, and I quote: "For evolution to remain viable, we must not allow any divine foot in the door". That supports that evolution is atheistic, and pagan in origin.

 

[Yehren]

One prominent evolutionist said, and I quote: "For evolution to remain viable, we must not allow any divine foot in the door".

A much more prominent evolutionist said this:
"There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved."
Charles Darwin, last sentence of On the Origin of Species 1872

That supports that evolution is entirely compatible with theism. Of course, like all science, it's methodologically naturalistic, which means that evolution can neither assert nor deny God and His creation. Neither can plumbing, BTW. Plumbers and scientists can, though. For some reason, few creationists think plumbing is atheistic.

Maybe plumbing doesn't scare most creationists?

 

[Yehren]

You can call me Wrong all day long, it doesn't change a thing,

It's just reality that you're fighting. By now, you should realize that you're at a huge disadvantage, because you don't know about any of the science or even the facts in this issue. Why not take a little time to learn about scripture and biology, and then try again? You'd be a lot more effective against science if you knew what it is.

Maybe I should go to the ZOO and ask YOUR ancestors tell me all about what you have Learned from them

They won't be there. You still can't get past the idea of orthogenesis. Chimps, for example, aren't the ancestors of humans, any more than humans are the ancestors of chimps, or wolves are the ancestors of dogs. In each case, they evolved from a common ancestor which was neither of them. But because you don't have any idea what you're talking about, you keep running into the same pillar again,and again.

Plants and animals have a common ancestor, too.

LOL...Common ANCESTOR?

Yep. And genetic analysis of plants and animals confirms it.

Who is that Common Ancestor?

Single-celled eukaryote, it seems. Maybe a colonial form.

Meet the ancestors of all plants and animals

Protists, unique single-celled organisms that float on the ocean waves, are the ancestors of all plants and animals
Meet the ancestors of all plants and animals

 

[Grailhunter]

In the middle ages, thinking that the cause of the plagues were their lack of faith or demons, Christians packed the churches....contagion....estimates vary somewhere between 50 and 100 million died. Christianity is a wonderful thing, but it is not a good source for science.

 

[Paul Christensen]

A much more prominent evolutionist said this:
"There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved."
Charles Darwin, last sentence of On the Origin of Species 1872

That supports that evolution is entirely compatible with theism. Of course, like all science, it's methodologically naturalistic, which means that evolution can neither assert nor deny God and His creation. Neither can plumbing, BTW. Plumbers and scientists can, though. For some reason, few creationists think plumbing is atheistic.

Maybe plumbing doesn't scare most creationists?

As you said, Darwin did believe in the Creator and he gave a theory about how He might have done it. I think that Christians who believe in evolution plus Bible are closer in a sense to Darwin than they are to modern atheistic evolutionists who will not consider any kind of creation by a Creator.

Can I test you with a question?
Why did Jesus came and die on the cross?

 

[Grailhunter]

As you said, Darwin did believe in the Creator and he gave a theory about how He might have done it. I think that Christians who believe in evolution plus Bible are closer in a sense to Darwin than they are to modern atheistic evolutionists who will not consider any kind of creation by a Creator.

Can I test you with a question?
Why did Jesus came and die on the cross?

You have to get off the Darwin thing....it is nothing to your credit. You are facing modern science now.
Darwin is to modern evolutionary science as Giovanni Fontana is to modern motorcycles.