Not by works - but by faith

[Episkopos]

Greetings Episkopos!

Just like to ask, what judgment are you meaning to refer in your post? Are you referring to judgment wherein man will be judged whether they will go to Hell or not?

Tong
R0007

We are saved already from the judgment of the world. But the house of God has a separate judgment...face to face at the Bema seat.

The Israelites were saved FROM Egypt...but many perished on the way to being saved TO the promised land. God was not well pleased with everyone. In fact quite the opposite.

So this life is a trial for us.

 

[Joseph77]

Just like to ask, what judgment are you meaning to refer in your post? Are you referring to judgment wherein man will be judged whether they will go to Hell or not?

Judgment? What Judgment is this - "... they are already condemned because of their unbelief ..." ?
(John 3:18 or there-abouts)

 

[Tong2020]

Hi @Tong2020 Yes, you make a good point there. Faith produces obedience; but obedience does not earn salvation, which is all of grace.

I do read the Bible farouk. Thanks for the invitation.

Now, it's one thing to read the Bible, but it's another to understand what it says. On what you say concerning the matter of faith, obedience, salvation, first, that only makes sense to the Christian, the saved. I'd like to share the following scriptures relative to this, involving the Christian:

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Tong
R0010

 

[Tong2020]

We are saved already from the judgment of the world. But the house of God has a separate judgment...face to face at the Bema seat.

The Israelites were saved FROM Egypt...but many perished on the way to being saved TO the promised land. God was not well pleased with everyone. In fact quite the opposite.

So this life is a trial for us.

What is "judgment of the world" you refer to there? May I know what it is that you mean by it?

Episkopos, in the house of God, the judgment you are talking about there, which you say is face to face at the Bema seat, is that judgment pertaining to the matter of one's going to hell or his going to heaven?

I need to clarify those things from you, before I really could fully understand what it is you mean to say in your posts here in this thread relative to works and judgment. Thanks.

Tong
R0011

 

[Cristo Rei]

We are really only saved after we die
We are saved by the grace of Christ through our faith
But we can loose that grace if we don't show good deeds
Faith apart from works is dead

 

[Tong2020]

We are really only saved after we die
We are saved by the grace of Christ through our faith
But we can loose that grace if we don't show good deeds
Faith apart from works is dead

What grace can the Christian lose are you referring to? Is it the grace of Christ, His love that He had expressed by His sacrifice of His life at the cross?

Romans 8:38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Did you received God's grace of salvation by good works? How can you say now that if you don't show good deeds you will lose the grace?

Tong
R0012

 

[Cristo Rei]

Did you received God's grace of salvation by good works?

Not quite. Im Catholic and I don't find too much of a difference with the Protestant understanding.
In fact we both do the same things. We're both saved which ever way u look at it.

"Born again" for the Protestant come through faith in Christ. Catholics have faith in Christ
Catholics believe it comes with baptism. We don't call it salvation as that ultimately happens after death
We call it sanctifying grace, the grace of Christ. Protestants get baptized too.

If u live a life of bad deeds the Catholics say that u can fall from grace which some Protestants basically agree
The "once saved always saved" people would say that he was never born again in the first place
It's the same conclusion

There is a statement which defines salvation in terms that both parties agree on. Do u know it? I can find it if u want

I just saw that u are Filipino so u are probably Catholic anyway

 

[bbyrd009]

We are really only saved after we die

"death, more abundantly" imo, no offense meant. you are not even trying very hard i guess

ntmy, mark

I came that you might have life, more abundantly
not that most prots believe that either i guess

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I do read the Bible farouk. Thanks for the invitation.

Now, it's one thing to read the Bible, but it's another to understand what it says. On what you say concerning the matter of faith, obedience, salvation, first, that only makes sense to the Christian, the saved. I'd like to share the following scriptures relative to this, involving the Christian:

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Tong
R0010

Amen

This verse, taken with Paul's assurance, that he who BEGAN a good work, Will COMPLETE it.

Show us that it is God who empower. God who does. God who promises to not fail.

It is why it is said, even when we are faithless, he is faithful He CAN NOT deny himself

If we fail. God failed. So in spite of us, God is faithful! Why? Because he is the one who made the promises. to go back on his promises would be to deny himself

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We are really only saved after we die
We are saved by the grace of Christ through our faith
But we can loose that grace if we don't show good deeds
Faith apart from works is dead

Titus 3: 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

It is not by any kind of good work, or work of righteousness which we have done, are doing or will do. But By Gods mercy we HAVE been saved (a completed action) through the washing (sins washed) and Renewal (new birth) of the Holy Spirit.We HAVE BEEN justified. and because of that, As paul said in Eph 1. Well here. Lets let Paul speak

Eph 1:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,

As we can see here

1. He blessed us with every blessing
2. He chose us BEFORE the foundation of the world That we will be Holy and WITHOUT BLAME
3. He predestined, or pre-determined beforehand that we would be adopted as sons and daughters
4. He made us acceptable to God
5. He redeemed us, in this redemption we have the forgiveness of sins.

And how did we get all this? Well Paul tells the church at ephesus this and us also.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

1. We trusted (true living faith)
2. After we heard the word, The gospel (eat the bread from heaven John 6)
3, After having this faith, we were sealed with the HS, who is our assurance UNTIL the day of redemption, or ressuraction day
4. And GOD gets the glory.

James is speaking of a false faith, a dead faith, A claimed faith, which has no life at all

One things I think we should remember, We are saved by Faith alone, But faith is NEVER alone

 

[bbyrd009]

Amen

This verse, taken with Paul's assurance, that he who BEGAN a good work, Will COMPLETE it.

Show us that it is God who empower. God who does. God who promises to not fail.

It is why it is said, even when we are faithless, he is faithful He CAN NOT deny himself

If we fail. God failed. So in spite of us, God is faithful! Why? Because he is the one who made the promises. to go back on his promises would be to deny himself

i dunno, for all must come before the judgement seat to be judged for their works done while in the body, whether for good or for evil
.

It is not by any kind of good work, or work of righteousness which we have done, are doing or will do. But By Gods mercy we HAVE been saved (a completed action) through the washing (sins washed) and Renewal (new birth) of the Holy Spirit.We HAVE BEEN justified. and because of that, As paul said in Ep

ah well, who is that "we" in There, do you imagine? See, you are going to assign all that to some ppl who did some kind of "work," right

 

[Eternally Grateful]

i dunno, for all must come before the judgement seat to be judged for their works done while in the body, whether for good or for evil

yep

But there are two judgments

One of them the end result in the believer being saved, But possibly seeing ALL his or her reward left in ashes

The other will be the unbeliever cast to an eternal separation from God

 

[bbyrd009]

And how did we get all this? Well Paul tells the church at ephesus this and us also.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

1. We trusted (true living faith)
2. After we heard the word, The gospel (eat the bread from heaven John 6)
3, After having this faith

see, what's going on is "having faith," a verb, was changed to "having believed," an object, by our oh-so-helpful scribes, and then you re-translated it "after having this faith," a noun, completely eliminating the necessity to "have faith," a verb, so now all ya gotta do is "keep the faith" right

Death, More Abundantly in a nutshell imo

 

[bbyrd009]

yep

But there are two judgments

One of them the end result in the believer being saved, But possibly seeing ALL his or her reward left in ashes

The other will be the unbeliever cast to an eternal separation from God

he said, with complete confidence sorry, nations are judged separately, but all must come before the judgement seat to be judged for their works is the one that cannot be escaped imo. And you can imagine that a "believer" will get Yah's respect (of persons) if you like, but wadr that does not mean that that is true. And you and your sons will be here with me, just like Samuel assured King Saul? All go to the same place
If you dig a pit for others to fall into, you end up in it yourself

2 judgments is strictly for immortality seekers imo

 

[Eternally Grateful]

see, what's going on is "having faith," a verb, was changed to "having believed," an object, by our oh-so-helpful scribes, and then you re-translated it "after having this faith," a noun, completely eliminating the necessity to "have faith," a verb, so now all ya gotta do is "keep the faith" right

Death, More Abundantly in a nutshell imo

Well it says after we have that faith, We are sealed with the HS of promise, UNTIL the day of redemption.

So if we are sealed right now. And that seal continues to the day of redemption. And that seal is our pledge.. then we are saved already right? And this salvation is forever is it not?

If it was not. I think Paul would have goven us conditions by which that seal could be broken,

You know. Like saying, "who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, As long as we do this, or that, or do not fail to do this other things, to the praise of OUR (not His) glory.

See how it would be worded if it could be broken?

 

[bbyrd009]

So if we are sealed right now. And that seal continues to the day of redemption. And that seal is our pledge.. then we are saved already right? And this salvation is forever is it not?

i would say no, sorry, but if you Quote the vv we could see i guess. The day of redemption is surely today, and imo Paul is just using suggestive/seductive language to hide wisdom from the wise

If it was not. I think Paul would have goven us conditions by which that seal could be broken,

imo he did, and they are not hard to find

See how it would be worded if it could be broken?

Paul is easy to misinterpret i guess? And imo the conflation of "have faith" with "believe" causes us to assume that all kinds of benefits accrue to "believing," when they most likely do not, or else one of the other forms of "believe" would have been used rather than pistis

 

[Eternally Grateful]

he said, with complete confidence sorry, nations are judged separately, but all must come before the judgement seat to be judged for their works is the one that cannot be escaped imo. And you can imagine that a "believer" will get Yah's respect (of persons) if you like, but wadr that does not mean that that is true. And you and your sons will be here with me, just like Samuel assured King Saul? All go to the same place
If you dig a pit for others to fall into, you end up in it yourself

2 judgments is strictly for immortality seekers imo

I am not talking about nations

We have the bema seat judgment (for all must come before the judgement seat (BEMA)to be judged for their works)

And we have the Krino judgment or great white throne (And they were judged (Krino), each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire.)

Both are judgments on individuals

One judgment, the one judged received reward. Gold silver precious stone, Wood hay straw

The other one, One receives condemnation or the second death.

I think if we look at things, we should make sure we are at the first, and not the second.

 

[bbyrd009]

Both are judgments on individuals

why couldn't they be two depictions of the same judgement?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

i would say no, sorry, but if you Quote the vv we could see i guess.

I did quote the verse..

The day of redemption is surely today, and imo Paul is just using suggestive/seductive language to hide wisdom from the wise
imo he did, and they are not hard to find

Um no it is not today, It would be the day our redemption is fulfilled. If it was today, Then the seal of the HS is quite meaningless.

Paul is easy to misinterpret i guess? And imo the conflation of "have faith" with "believe" causes us to assume that all kinds of benefits accrue to "believing," when they most likely do not, or else one of the other forms of "believe" would have been used rather than pistis

Its not an issue in the greek, the issue is in the english, There is no english verb for faith, I do not faith (verb) in God, I have faith (noun) in God

So we use the word believe as the verb form of the same greek word translated faith

The issue is, Belief as far reaching, We have people who believe yet have no faith. Say like demons, (james 2) and we have people who believe ot the saving of the soul.

so we have to properly interpret what form of the word belief is being used..

Is it mental agreement (I believe it)

Or is it actually living faith (I trust, and am assured that this is true)

We are not saved because we mentally agree. We are saved because we have living faith

 

[bbyrd009]

I did quote the verse..

see, what's going on is "having faith," a verb, was changed to "having believed," an object, by our oh-so-helpful scribes, and then you re-translated it "after having this faith," a noun, completely eliminating the necessity to "have faith," a verb, so now all ya gotta do is "keep the faith" right

Death, More Abundantly in a nutshell imo

Um no it is not today, It would be the day our redemption is fulfilled. If it was today, Then the seal of the HS is quite meaningless.

well, so you say, but wadr i would sure disagree, and i guess i could gather some witnesses that would too. Now dont get me wrong, the day one's redemption is fulfilled might not be today, as only Yah knows when, but there is no reason it could not be today either, except for those who seek to go up to heaven after they have died of course