Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Just don't forget, Jesus and the disciples didn't wash their hands
Job 17
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The Greek Septuagint has:
8 Wonder has seized true men on account of me; transgressor arose against the just*. 9 How then is the faithful to hold on his own way, and him that is pure of hands take courage?
In other words, if the just suffers like a transgressor what is the point of being faithful or pure of hands?
_____
* The Greek is somewhat vague here. It can also be translated as "the just has been rebelled against as if he was a transgressor"
I could laugh, because this appears true sometimes.
To have clean hands is to be innocent of evil behaviour.
5 Did he not say to me, 'She is my sister,' and didn't she also say, 'He is my brother'? I have done this with a clear conscience and clean hands."
Gen 20:5
21 "The LORD has dealt with me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands he has rewarded me.
2 Sam 22:21
20 The LORD has dealt with me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands he has rewarded me.
Psalm 18:20
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Yea, the Pharisee made it a point too bring awareness too the cleanliness of theirs.
I have to say, this makes more sense. A lot more.
Oh but wait...it would be the hebrew we would want to look at really. Which they did of course...
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Interesting you say that towards the end of his trial, my wife was showing me the other morning as to how it appears that Job was given a vision of the acts of the Apostles in the chapter you just quoted.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
He was righteous because he treated others at least as well as he treated himself.
Stan B
Well-Known Member
There is one area where God restricted Satan. He was not allowed to harm Job's wife. Maybe that would have been Job's breaking point.
Let me try another approach. The problem we the readers need to tackle is how to defend the Perfection of God. If we perceive imperfections in God in our minds or have unexpressed doubts, how do we deal with them? The basic question in the book of Job is probably why do bad things happen to good people? My starting premise when dealing with doubts about God is that I have the problem. I attribute error to myself, not to God.
Compare Job to the prodigal son who was not content at home with his father. His life was comfortable, but he wondered if he might be happier on his own, away from his father. His basic problem, I think, was that he did not understand and appreciate the fact that his father loved him. He did not see the love of his father and did not love his father that much. So he asked for his inheritance, got it and left. Things went downhill and finally disastrous. When he came to his senses, he wondered if he should go home. He was not presuming it would be, he did not assume his father loved him -- and he said to himself he would be willing to work for his father as a laborer if not accepted as a son when he returned.
What the prodigal son learned from his experiences on his own was the lesson of love. He finally perceived that his father did care about him. It was real, and not an act. His brother, who never left home, still did not understand that and was resentful. Those who err and are then forgiven learn the lesson of love. Those who are forgiven much love much as Jesus put it.
Now let me begin my critique of Job. He was just, he was righteous, he was perfect in a legalistic way. Perfect in Hebrew has two spellings -- one is 440, the other is 490. The book of Job uses the 440 type to Job. It never uses the 490 type, but I think it's inferred if you see the 50 of Pentecost being added to Job's initial 440 type. He reached a different kind of perfection after Pentecost.
We are told Job was righteous; but the book does not say he was wise or loving. He was neither at the beginning. His family life was a wreck emotionally. Superficially everything looks good with all the wealth, but if we allow ourselves to feel his situation by using our emotions, we can see all was not well.
You probably wouldn't have enjoyed being around Job. His children didn't. He had given them wealth so they could live on their own, and they took the money and ran. Rich people can be like that: You want your children to be rich and successful since they are seen as extensions of self. I think Job's children felt that way about him. My evidence? They visited each other and not him. I find the following a shocking picture of Job's family life:
Job 1:2 And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters.
3 His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east.
4 And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them.
Seven days a week and seven sons suggests to me they never visited Job. What was Job doing?
5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.
I'm sure you've been around people who are critical of almost everything you and others do. They are busy worrying about things that aren't worth worrying about. Job wasn't the type to be overly critically of others verbally, but he was a worrier. You've probably been around this type of person too. They might not accuse you openly of sinning, but you can tell from their attitude that they think you might be sinning. Such people are miserable to be around.
Now let's move on to Job's wife. What kind of woman was she? Was she a godly woman of the sort whose seed would want to tread down the seed of the serpent? Or was she an ungodly woman who produced children of the seed of the serpent? I say the latter since she sided with Satan and advised God to curse God and die. And yes, there was something wrong with Job's children. Yes, they were of the seed of the serpent since their mother was. But what was the problem? We're in deep territory here involving views that remain controversial.
The problem again was Job. Spiritually, the "fallen woman" cannot redeem herself completely. She must be joined to an unfallen male who provides her spiritual covering the way Boaz provided Ruth a spiritual covering. Ruth came from a cursed tribe and converted to the worship of the One True God; and then Boaz covered her. There are examples in the New Testament where Jesus rescues "fallen women" -- not by marrying them and having sex with them but by providing them the proper spiritual covering.
I say Job failed to "cleave" to his wife according to the commandment. Note please that Eve was not told to cleave to Adam. She remained under the curse and had produced children under that curse. Job was right, in a way, to be uncomfortable about his children. I say he erred by failing to love his wife. If he had loved her more fully, she would have changed and been converted herself.
Few people notice that neither Satan nor Job's wife is mentioned at the end of the book. Why the omission? It's a glaring omission to me that demands an answer. My answer is that Job did cleave to his wife following his revelation from God -- he loved her as a man should love his wife -- and the two became one -- neither male nor female -- spiritually one although you could say they had two physical bodies. Satan, the male personification of trouble, is also not worth mentioning at the end since the "satanic" in Job had been defeated and changed, transmuted, etc.
Now out of this newly blessed union, we see Job's children also reborn. (I believe in reincarnation, so it presents no problem for me.) There is no hint of Job worrying about them needlessly or of offering sacrifices on their behalf. What folly is it anyway to offer sacrifices to God for the sins of others? If Job's sons had sinned, Job couldn't solve that through burnt sacrifices. They would have needed to repent before being forgiven. Job had been falling into thinking God could be placated by animal sacrifices -- and it didn't matter who offered them. Job's vision of God in the beginning was that God was angry and vengeful -- and enjoyed seeing animals being killed. Job thought maybe if he gave God enjoyment by killing animals, God would spare his children just in case they had sinned. Thank goodness, all that goes away at the end.
We are all born into this world not to follow some set of rules that allows God to judge us as righteous. We are born in this world to learn how to love. The rules or laws are there to guide us if we want to do the loving thing but lack discernment in some situations. Obeying the rules isn't enough to make us loving creatures. They are attempts to guide us.
I do not believe God takes enjoyment in seeing anyone suffer -- saint or sinner. I do not believe God automatically gives wealth and success to the righteous. I believe God loves everyone and wishes the best for all mankind. The problems lie with mankind. Job worried about this too, I think. Was his wealth the result of his being righteous? Could he "buy" God that way? Can we "buy" God that way today? Can we, without love in our hearts, contrive in our hearts how to get wealth and success from God by keeping a set of rules in order to please Him? Can man outwit God like that? I say no because God would like to see everyone wealthy and successful. I insist on this because God's Perfection must be defended in my mind.
We live however in an imperfect world where people have not yet learned how to live with each other peacefully and lovingly. Bad things will happen then. Sometimes we can invite bad things to happen too. Job to a certain extent invited disaster with his great wealth. One verse suggests he had so much livestock, it was "breaking out" of the pastures. Such wealth invites violence from the less fortunate. The people who raided Job's flocks and killed his children were not loving to be sure -- but ask what had Job even done for the poor? Anything? I think not. I think he lavished part of his wealth on his children since he saw them as extensions of himself while neglecting the poor. He failed to love his neighbors, showing too much preference to his family.
Compare that attitude to the rich man in Gehinnom who wanted Lazarus to suffer so he could have a drop of water for his tongue. How selfish. And how selfish too was his request about his brothers. What about the rest of the world? He didn't care the least bit about non-family when he was alive, showing no compassion for Lazarus; and he had the same attitude in Gehinnom. There is only solution for that kind of recalcitrance -- burning it away the way a tree needs to be pruned of its dead wood. The fire in Gehinnom is, of course, the Flames of Love; but admittedly those who cling to their sins experience them as anguish. Abraham loved that rich man. That's why Abraham was there. He was trying to explain things but the rich man wasn't willing to hear him -- he was still concerned about "me and mine."
Let me add another point of controversy as if I may not have been controversial enough already. I do not read the book of Job as being a story about a "real person" who lived sometime in the past. I read it as a book of prophecy about Israel. The continuing problem with the Jews is how they keep falling from time to time into self-righteousness, seeing themselves as superior, etc. Moses told Israel they were supposed to act as a nation of priests for all the world, for all the other nations; and some Jews still do do this even today. But the trap is always there when vanity seems to overcome them and they believe they are "special" because of who their ancestors were. They fail to see that God wants the whole world to become "children of Abraham" according to the Spirit.
Job fell into that trap in the beginning of the book. His sacrificing for his "family" accomplished little or nothing. The full purpose of Israel remains to be played out -- the end of the prophecy in the book of Job remains to be fulfilled. Jew and Gentile will enter the kingdom together -- as shown by Job's intercession for his Gentile friends who had sinned, who had needed intercession. We see how Jew and Gentile began entering the kingdom shortly after the Pentecost in the Upper Room; but I think a fuller fulfillment remains, one which will convert the entire world into God's kingdom where everyone lives in peace and love, and everyone is blessed.
I do not believe God takes enjoyment in seeing anyone suffer -- saint or sinner. I do not believe God automatically gives wealth and success to the righteous. I believe God loves everyone and wishes the best for all mankind. The problems lie with mankind. Job worried about this too, I think. Was his wealth the result of his being righteous? Could he "buy" God that way? Can we "buy" God that way today? Can we, without love in our hearts, contrive in our hearts how to get wealth and success from God by keeping a set of rules in order to please Him? Can man outwit God like that? I say no because God would like to see everyone wealthy and successful. I insist on this because God's Perfection must be defended in my mind.
We live however in an imperfect world where people have not yet learned how to live with each other peacefully and lovingly. Bad things will happen then. Sometimes we can invite bad things to happen too. Job to a certain extent invited disaster with his great wealth. One verse suggests he had so much livestock, it was "breaking out" of the pastures. Such wealth invites violence from the less fortunate. The people who raided Job's flocks and killed his children were not loving to be sure -- but ask what had Job even done for the poor? Anything? I think not. I think he lavished part of his wealth on his children since he saw them as extensions of himself while neglecting the poor. He failed to love his neighbors, showing too much preference to his family.
Compare that attitude to the rich man in Gehinnom who wanted Lazarus to suffer so he could have a drop of water for his tongue. How selfish. And how selfish too was his request about his brothers. What about the rest of the world? He didn't care the least bit about non-family when he was alive, showing no compassion for Lazarus; and he had the same attitude in Gehinnom. There is only solution for that kind of recalcitrance -- burning it away the way a tree needs to be pruned of its dead wood. The fire in Gehinnom is, of course, the Flames of Love; but admittedly those who cling to their sins experience them as anguish. Abraham loved that rich man. That's why Abraham was there. He was trying to explain things but the rich man wasn't willing to hear him -- he was still concerned about "me and mine."
Let me add another point of controversy as if I may not have been controversial enough already. I do not read the book of Job as being a story about a "real person" who lived sometime in the past. I read it as a book of prophecy about Israel. The continuing problem with the Jews is how they keep falling from time to time into self-righteousness, seeing themselves as superior, etc. Moses told Israel they were supposed to act as a nation of priests for all the world, for all the other nations; and some Jews still do do this even today. But the trap is always there when vanity seems to overcome them and they believe they are "special" because of who their ancestors were. They fail to see that God wants the whole world to become "children of Abraham" according to the Spirit.
Job fell into that trap in the beginning of the book. His sacrificing for his "family" accomplished little or nothing. The full purpose of Israel remains to be played out -- the end of the prophecy in the book of Job remains to be fulfilled. Jew and Gentile will enter the kingdom together -- as shown by Job's intercession for his Gentile friends who had sinned, who had needed intercession. We see how Jew and Gentile began entering the kingdom shortly after the Pentecost in the Upper Room; but I think a fuller fulfillment remains, one which will convert the entire world into God's kingdom where everyone lives in peace and love, and everyone is blessed.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Men can do right. They can love others at least as much as they love themselves. But that's not where we hope to be found. We hope to be found in Christ and His righteousness.
But to say it is impossible for a man to be righteous, humanly speaking, is not right, is it? It's sort of contradictory and,at the least, missing something, to say Job could not have been blameless, as God Himself states Job was blameless.
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