Tong2020 said:
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Why would Jesus die for them who are not His sheep? He is the Good Shepherd that is why He dies for His sheep. He would not die for the thieves and robbers, and for the wolves. Why would He?
My initial thinking regarding the scriptures you cited is that, they are misused or taken out of context. Perhaps too, it's because of a narrow understanding of what the life and death of Christ is about.
Tong
R0074
You say that I am being "narrow" when I present all those passages that say that Jesus is the "
propitiation for our sins: and not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 Jn. 2:2.
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Jn. 3:16. God,
"is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9."
Jesus died on the Cross for the sins of the
WHOLE WORLD (this is separate from just the sins of believers), Jesus gave the offer of eternal life to the
WORLD that
WHOSOEVER BELIEVES...
not ONLY THE SHEEP...
The Lord is
NOT WILLING that
ANY should perish...
Yet you take one passage out of context and say that Jesus
ONLY DIED FOR THE SHEEP! And you say that I am being too "narrow?"
When is comes to Atonement
effectual, yes, Jesus died only for the Sheep, because only the Sheep benefit directly! Who here has denied it?
Yet, Scripture is plain and clear that the Atonement is for all...
potentially, and conditionally.
In John chapter 10, Jesus tells us in His discourse,
"I am the door; IF ANYONE enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." (V.9).
If ANYONE enters the door through Jesus Christ, he shall be saved; they will become Sheep!
Jesus defines who the Sheep are; What constitutes a "Sheep"?
Verse 27,
"My Sheep hear (present active) My voice, and I know them, and they follow (present active) Me." Who is a Sheep? Only those who presently are hearing and following the Shepard! Being a Sheep is not some state existing in the past, but only in the present! Jesus said so!
To many in the crowd that Jesus is speaking to that did not believe, Jesus
did not say,
"The Shepard does not give His life for you!"
Jesus reasons with them saying,
"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father." (verses 37, 38). Why? To what end does Jesus appeal to unbelievers that they should "believe" and "understand"? Was Jesus acting like an arrogant petulant Child saying, "Nah! Nah! You aren't getting to Heaven!" Or is it obvious by what He declared in verse 9 and 27 that Jesus wants those He speaks to, to
BECOME SHEEP?
You cannot rip Jesus out of context and defy all other inspired Scriptures and be teaching that the Atonement is limited, and still say that is what the Bible teaches!
Too many things to address here. I hope the readers would be patient enough to read this long post for I will try to address all points.
I did not say you are narrow Sir Candidus. Here's what I said and I quote
"Perhaps too, it's because of a narrow understanding of what the life and death of Christ is about."
I also said,
"My initial thinking regarding the scriptures you cited is that, they are misused or taken out of context." I did not attempt to show that because, besides the fact that it will take a lot of writing, it is a totally another issue. But if you want, just say so, be it in a new and separate thread or in this thread, no problem. Let me make a few statements as a matter of clarification on that issue. On the matter of context, the word "world" and "all" are general collective terms and should be carefully taken it their proper sense and meaning, for there are scriptures, like that of John 10, where the death of Jesus for the purpose of saving from sin and death, clearly is presented as only for a certain specific chosen people (the sheep) and not all, which truth is revealed in reality, all throughout history and all over the globe. On the matter of a narrow understanding of the life and death of Christ, the death of Christ must not be limited to only be for salvation from sin and death, because there is more to that. In scriptures, when it speaks of salvation, it does not only refer to salvation from sin and death, but also from a lot of other things.
You said "The Lord is
NOT WILLING that
ANY should perish...". That's right, scriptures says that. So? There are a lot that God is not willing, or in other human terms, God does not intend or desire, or wish (? if I may use that word). One is that, that any should be killed, perish, or destroyed. Another is that, that any should worship idols. Another is that, that any should kill or murder. Generally, that any would not keep all His commands. So many that God is not willing, does not intend or desire, or wish, yet He allowed them to be. That could only be said to be part of His plan, for there is nothing that happens and comes to pass that is not for the working out of God's will, plan, purpose, pleasure, which all are for His glory. It could not be anything otherwise, for God knows and is in control of everything that happens. Did not Jesus said even of the sparrows, "not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will." He is truly God who rules over all His creation, sustains it and does to it as He pleases. Nothing happens apart from God's will.
You said "Yet you take one passage out of context and say that Jesus
ONLY DIED FOR THE SHEEP!". Out of context? No sir. Here's another passage. Read the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13. Tell me, if there is a change from tares to wheat or that the tares becomes wheat, or if there is a change from to wheat to tares or that the wheat becomes tares. One would not miss what is there in the parable as it is explained there by Jesus to His disciples.
You talk about atonement. That is for another topic. If you want, you can start a new thread and I would be glad to discuss that with you there.
You said "
If ANYONE enters the door through Jesus Christ, he shall be saved; they will become Sheep!" Yes, he shall be saved. But become sheep? ~That is your interpretation my friend which is clearly just not there. You are entitled to you opinion and interpretation Sir. But what I am saying is that, such interpretation is not necessarily the correct one, on at least 2 points. One is that, the idea of "becoming a sheep" is foreign to the context. And two is that, Jesus had just made it clear, prior to verse 9, that He is the door of the sheep. If you understand what that means, where the door is a passageway and says on the door "door of the sheep", what does that say to you? So, the "anyone" had already been identified or categorized, that is, any of His sheep. If any man therefore enter the door, who is such man, if not the sheep? There is not even the slightest hint that the man who enters the door is not a sheep but is something else other than a sheep, who after entering the door becomes a sheep like magic. He is just a lost sheep who was sought and was found and brought home.
You said
"Jesus defines who the Sheep are; What constitutes a "Sheep"? Verse 27, "My Sheep hear (present active) My voice, and I know them, and they follow (present active) Me." Who is a Sheep? Only those who presently are hearing and following the Shepard! Being a Sheep is not some state existing in the past, but only in the present! Jesus said so!"
What Jesus gave us there is an identifying ability and an identifying behavior of His sheep. Well, we can take that as a definition. But definitely, Jesus is there not setting forth the conditions of becoming His sheep. Far from it.
To the rest of what remains of your post which I had not addressed above, here's what I could say. Jesus came to earth and He came in the flesh. He is the Son of Man. In Mt. 1:21, an angel of the Lord declared to Joseph,
"He will save His people from their sins.” So, clearly, there mentioned there a particular identified people (His people ~ His sheep) whom Jesus came to save from their sins, that He came to earth.
Tong
R0094