Saved Or Predestined ???

[DNB]

Show me a text that I misinterpreted and you know what it actually means, and teach us the truth.

I forget half your claims but, your exaggerated powers for one, and the notion that Christians can be 'perfectly sinless' or something like that?
I don't believe that all your prayers are answered, for even some of Jesus' and Paul's prayers were not answered. Just the fact that you would even say such a thing, without appreciating the need to qualify your intent, reveals your oblivion on so many levels.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I forget half your claims but, your exaggerated powers for one, and the notion that Christians can be 'perfectly sinless' or something like that?
I don't believe that all your prayers are answered, for even some of Jesus' and Paul's prayers were not answered. Just the fact that you would even say such a thing, without appreciating the need to qualify your intent, reveals your oblivion on so many levels.

You referred to a text. What text?

1 John 3:21-24
21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

What do you believe these verses mean? And do you even believe they are for today. They are true. I happen to know that they are from experience. God taught me how. I could tell you, but you would only commit the sin of mocking, so I won't for you sake. But anyone else, someone who is already a true believer, Spirit-filled and possesses the fear of the Lord, PM me if you don't already know which you probably already do. So then PM me for fellowship.

Was Paul and Barnabas braggarts? Or were they magnifying the Lord.

Acts 15:
Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles.

 

[Tong2020]

The fatalists, which includes you.
If someone is irresistibly chosen for salvation over someone else, that is fatalism.

I have a name. You know it by now. My name is Tong2020. You can properly call me by that name in this forum, Mr. Renniks.
I am not a fatalist which you here branded me. I am not a Calvinist either. I am a Christian.

I would like presume, and hope to be right, that you are a good Christian who abides in Christ and loves God and neighbor, humble and wise.

The Bible said "whatever you do, do all to the glory of God".

Tong
R0085

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Greetings marksman!

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

I would just like to ask, considering what you said there, particularly those I had converted to bold fonts, for what is God's choosing for? Is it for salvation? If so, why would He do that? For what, when in His foreknowledge, they will come to faith in Jesus Christ? Do you not find that absurd?

Tong
R0067

God is choosing for sonship as the scripture says several times that we are sons of his.

Choosing for sonship, you say. Is that the same as choosing for salvation, as scriptures speaks about of the brethren in the church at Thessalonica?

Tong
R0086

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Why would Jesus die for them who are not His sheep? He is the Good Shepherd that is why He dies for His sheep. He would not die for the thieves and robbers, and for the wolves. Why would He?

My initial thinking regarding the scriptures you cited is that, they are misused or taken out of context. Perhaps too, it's because of a narrow understanding of what the life and death of Christ is about.

Tong
R0074

Think about what you just said

You just boasted that you were better than these people. So Christ died for you.

Remember, Christ died when we were his enemy, When WE were thieves robbers and wolves, Remember what Paul said to the corinthian church.

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Christ died for the world. Because he loved the world..

 

[DNB]

You referred to a text. What text?

1 John 3:21-24
21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

What do you believe these verses mean? And do you even believe they are for today. They are true. I happen to know that they are from experience. God taught me how. I could tell you, but you would only commit the sin of mocking, so I won't for you sake. But anyone else, someone who is already a true believer, Spirit-filled and possesses the fear of the Lord, PM me if you don't already know which you probably already do. So then PM me for fellowship.

Was Paul and Barnabas braggarts? Or were they magnifying the Lord.

Acts 15:
Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles.

I don't question the gift, just those who claim to have it. It's always best to let others exalt you, then for you to try and convince everyone how Spirit-filled that you are. The proof is in the pudding.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No...looks like you twisted it a bit too much.

Please. do show me how I twisted it.

Otherwise, You have an unproven accusation.

 

[Renniks]

If Jesus Christ died for all mankind, then it can be said that He died for all those who will be cast into the lake of fire. And for what that He died for them? Nothing. His death accounts for nothing. Precious blood wasted, useless, worthless, and powerless, for them billions of wicked and sinful men.

That's silly. If I can pass out a cure for cancer and someone doesn't want it, should I force it on them? Does is mean I wasted my effort if I offer it to someone who refuses to take it? You might as well just admit you don't believe men have any ability to make choices, despite the Bible blaming man for his rebellion against God, you want to put it all on God. You might not see it that way, but that's exactly what your theology does. It makes God the sinner, because you deny that men can choose against His will.

 

[Renniks]

I don't think anyone is implying that it does. Because He is all-knowing, he can act accordingly. Like if I know my son is going to do something stupid, I can act accordingly to prevent it from happening.

Calvinism teaches that God doesn't even know the future unless he ordains it. So, yes, that would be God causing man's rebellion.

 

[Josho]

Babies are conceived in sin,and are guilty in Adam.rom3:23

@Preacher4Truth

Mark 10:13-16

Then they brought little children to Him, that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked those who brought them. But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. "Assuredly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it." And He took them up in His arms, laid His hands on them, and blessed them.

 

[Renniks]

I simply would like to know if you believe you are one among those which the scriptures refer to as having been predestined to conform to the image of the Son as Paul had said in Romans 8:29 "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Are you or are you not?

I just explained to you that Foreknew can mean "Those God knew in times past." That would be the Old Testament saints. It's not even about what God knows before creation or whenever. It's about those who God had a relationship with. The reason we are told about it is to show God was faithful to them, so he will be faithful to us. In that sense, I am known currently by God. If I break the relationship, I will no longer be known by God. It is similar to " Adam knew his wife." It's speaking of those who God had a personal relationship with, not some knowledge of the future. I see no reason to suppose God looks through the corridors of time to see the future or to pick people for salvation. As far as we know, time doesn't exist for God, which is something impossible for us to even fully understand. So, why would the Bible talk about God knowing something beforehand as if that were significant? It's nonsense. There is no such thing as time for God. God does however, know certain people intimately. He knows those who respond to his invitation to enter into a relationship. This isn't about fate. It isn't about God arbitrarily picking some and bypassing or damning others. It's about a loving God who desires that all come to know him, but does not force his will on humanity.

 

[kcnalp]

The invitation is that when we believe the promises of God in the gospel of Christ, we will be saved. Predestination is not pre-determination. We are chosen for salvation according to God's foreknowledge and not His fore-determination. He knows who is going to receive Christ as Saviour, and pre-destines those ones to be conformed to the image of Christ.

This means that believing the gospel and God's promises come first for salvation, and then the genuine convert to Christ realises that he was elected by God's foreknowledge from the foundation of the world.

This means that if you have believed the gospel and received Christ as your Saviour and Lord, then the promise of God is that you will be saved, and that because God knew from the foundation of the world that you would receive Christ, your name was written in the book of life before the foundation of the world.

So God didn't make all of us exactly as it pleased Him?

 

[Renniks]

You asked "Why did Jesus give the gospel to people you claim could not become his?". The question is not quite right, for I did not claim any of that. What I claim is that there is no "becoming a sheep". The sheep are already there. They are just lost and they are whom Jesus the Shepherd will find and bring home to the fold.

Did any of the people to who Jesus said "You are not my sheep.", which would be all the people he was talking to at that time, later become saved? If even one did, your whole theory is proven wrong. We know that Jesus was talking to the Jews and many of them did become converted at Pentecost. Jesus was evangelizing. Try reading John 10 in that context instead of imposing your fatalism on it.

 

[marksman]

Choosing for sonship, you say. Is that the same as choosing for salvation, as scriptures speaks about of the brethren in the church at Thessalonica?

Tong
R0086

Can't have salvation unless you are a son.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I don't question the gift, just those who claim to have it. It's always best to let others exalt you, then for you to try and convince everyone how Spirit-filled that you are. The proof is in the pudding.

You accuse without evidence. It all started with your mocking of the lady who saw heaven and the babies. So I told you I also have visions, just to show you that it is normal for a Spirit filled Christian to have abilities. And your mocking increased. You say you don't question the gift, just those who claim to have it. And I say if you had the gift, you wouldn't be so quick to question and disparage without any evidence of lying, those who have it. I don't lie - ever - even if it costs me. That would be sin, and I enjoy my relationship with God too much to ever want to displease Him.

 

[Candidus]

Why would Jesus die for them who are not His sheep? He is the Good Shepherd that is why He dies for His sheep. He would not die for the thieves and robbers, and for the wolves. Why would He?

My initial thinking regarding the scriptures you cited is that, they are misused or taken out of context. Perhaps too, it's because of a narrow understanding of what the life and death of Christ is about.

Tong
R0074

You say that I am being "narrow" when I present all those passages that say that Jesus is the "propitiation for our sins: and not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 Jn. 2:2. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Jn. 3:16. God, "is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9."

Jesus died on the Cross for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD (this is separate from just the sins of believers), Jesus gave the offer of eternal life to the WORLD that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES... not ONLY THE SHEEP...

The Lord is NOT WILLING that ANY should perish...

Yet you take one passage out of context and say that Jesus ONLY DIED FOR THE SHEEP! And you say that I am being too "narrow?"

When is comes to Atonement effectual, yes, Jesus died only for the Sheep, because only the Sheep benefit directly! Who here has denied it?

Yet, Scripture is plain and clear that the Atonement is for all... potentially, and conditionally.

In John chapter 10, Jesus tells us in His discourse, "I am the door; IF ANYONE enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." (V.9). If ANYONE enters the door through Jesus Christ, he shall be saved; they will become Sheep!

Jesus defines who the Sheep are; What constitutes a "Sheep"?

Verse 27, "My Sheep hear (present active) My voice, and I know them, and they follow (present active) Me." Who is a Sheep? Only those who presently are hearing and following the Shepard! Being a Sheep is not some state existing in the past, but only in the present! Jesus said so!

To many in the crowd that Jesus is speaking to that did not believe, Jesus did not say, "The Shepard does not give His life for you!"
Jesus reasons with them saying, "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father." (verses 37, 38). Why? To what end does Jesus appeal to unbelievers that they should "believe" and "understand"? Was Jesus acting like an arrogant petulant Child saying, "Nah! Nah! You aren't getting to Heaven!" Or is it obvious by what He declared in verse 9 and 27 that Jesus wants those He speaks to, to BECOME SHEEP?

You cannot rip Jesus out of context and defy all other inspired Scriptures and be teaching that the Atonement is limited, and still say that is what the Bible teaches!

 

[FollowHim]

No...looks like you twisted it a bit too much.

I think the change of emphasis, ie. living the way of Jesus is not part of believing Jesus is often hidden or disguised.
In their language consequences of a world view are not connected with the world view, they can be separated.

I believe this is an absurd idea. It is like saying a base jumper is a base jumper because they believe the parachute will save their lives when they jump from the building, says so, has all the gear but refuses to jump. By their refusal, you know they do not believe it to be true, they believe they will die, but love to boast. It is in the action one shows what is true and what is just ideas. Or worse ideas can be 100% correct, but without action they are no different than the person who hates the ideas and also does nothing. Life is based on actions that flow from the ideas, it is the actions that matter. Equally some actions linked to the wrong ideas, quickly run to wrong actions that undo the very good actions that started.

So Abraham believed God, but until Isaac was ready to be sacrificed it was theory.

So a few sentences spoken by Jesus about belief become agreement with Jesus results in transformation and a perfect walk like Him, yet the reality is it is through belief one starts the actions, and the actions and belief change us through Gods Holy Spirit.

I realised long ago I wanted friends, I had this belief. Then when some got too close, I would rather lash out and hurt than risk sharing. So my belief without testing was true, except when it came to reality and doing, I discovered actually I was lying, I knew the desire for change but refused its reality. Emotions work like this, we want to moan and blame why we are where we are, but we keep ourselves there because every path out gets refused. Faith in action changes things, it proves the emotional setup has changed, that we are alive and can grow. I truly believe those who comfort themselves in staying where they are, are just lying to themselves about the emotional prison in which they live, but then, they have failed every time they have tried to leave. But that is because the prison is permanent and not meant to be broken free from, rather than they need Jesus and love in their hearts. God bless you

 

[kcnalp]

Can anyone tell God what to do or how to make us? Nobody I ever knew of!

 

[Candidus]

I have a name. You know it by now. My name is Tong2020. You can properly call me by that name in this forum, Mr. Renniks.
I am not a fatalist which you here branded me. I am not a Calvinist either. I am a Christian.

I would like presume, and hope to be right, that you are a good Christian who abides in Christ and loves God and neighbor, humble and wise.

The Bible said "whatever you do, do all to the glory of God".

Tong
R0085

If you believe and teach Fatalism... you are a Fatalist.

If you believe and teach a Limited Atonement, historically you align as being a Calvinist (in this particular instance).

Nancy Pelosi claims to be a good Roman Catholic... but she supports infanticide through abortion, stealing from those that work for their money, is for all kinds of sexual perversions and sin. Does that "brand" her as a Catholic, or as someone who is a bloodthirsty, Baby-murdering extortionist and a sick promoter of sexual perversion? Which traits "brand" her? Membership in Roman Catholic "Salvation Club?" Or her beliefs and actions?

 

[Candidus]

Can anyone tell God what to do or how to make us? Nobody I ever knew of!

Can anyone deny that God wills the salvation of all? Strangely.... yes!