Job 17

[Timtofly]

Why does no one ever speak of the fourth friend?

Why did God call Enoch, Elijah, before the Flood?

 

[Timtofly]

Just don't forget, Jesus and the disciples didn't wash their hands

Just their feet?

 

[Timtofly]

We are all born into this world not to follow some set of rules that allows God to judge us as righteous. We are born in this world to learn how to love. The rules or laws are there to guide us if we want to do the loving thing but lack discernment in some situations. Obeying the rules isn't enough to make us loving creatures. They are attempts to guide us.

I do not believe God takes enjoyment in seeing anyone suffer -- saint or sinner. I do not believe God automatically gives wealth and success to the righteous. I believe God loves everyone and wishes the best for all mankind. The problems lie with mankind. Job worried about this too, I think. Was his wealth the result of his being righteous? Could he "buy" God that way? Can we "buy" God that way today? Can we, without love in our hearts, contrive in our hearts how to get wealth and success from God by keeping a set of rules in order to please Him? Can man outwit God like that? I say no because God would like to see everyone wealthy and successful. I insist on this because God's Perfection must be defended in my mind.

We live however in an imperfect world where people have not yet learned how to live with each other peacefully and lovingly. Bad things will happen then. Sometimes we can invite bad things to happen too. Job to a certain extent invited disaster with his great wealth. One verse suggests he had so much livestock, it was "breaking out" of the pastures. Such wealth invites violence from the less fortunate. The people who raided Job's flocks and killed his children were not loving to be sure -- but ask what had Job even done for the poor? Anything? I think not. I think he lavished part of his wealth on his children since he saw them as extensions of himself while neglecting the poor. He failed to love his neighbors, showing too much preference to his family.

Compare that attitude to the rich man in Gehinnom who wanted Lazarus to suffer so he could have a drop of water for his tongue. How selfish. And how selfish too was his request about his brothers. What about the rest of the world? He didn't care the least bit about non-family when he was alive, showing no compassion for Lazarus; and he had the same attitude in Gehinnom. There is only solution for that kind of recalcitrance -- burning it away the way a tree needs to be pruned of its dead wood. The fire in Gehinnom is, of course, the Flames of Love; but admittedly those who cling to their sins experience them as anguish. Abraham loved that rich man. That's why Abraham was there. He was trying to explain things but the rich man wasn't willing to hear him -- he was still concerned about "me and mine."

Let me add another point of controversy as if I may not have been controversial enough already. I do not read the book of Job as being a story about a "real person" who lived sometime in the past. I read it as a book of prophecy about Israel. The continuing problem with the Jews is how they keep falling from time to time into self-righteousness, seeing themselves as superior, etc. Moses told Israel they were supposed to act as a nation of priests for all the world, for all the other nations; and some Jews still do do this even today. But the trap is always there when vanity seems to overcome them and they believe they are "special" because of who their ancestors were. They fail to see that God wants the whole world to become "children of Abraham" according to the Spirit.

Job fell into that trap in the beginning of the book. His sacrificing for his "family" accomplished little or nothing. The full purpose of Israel remains to be played out -- the end of the prophecy in the book of Job remains to be fulfilled. Jew and Gentile will enter the kingdom together -- as shown by Job's intercession for his Gentile friends who had sinned, who had needed intercession. We see how Jew and Gentile began entering the kingdom shortly after the Pentecost in the Upper Room; but I think a fuller fulfillment remains, one which will convert the entire world into God's kingdom where everyone lives in peace and love, and everyone is blessed.

Why would offering sacrifice for his family be a mistake? They were not for just one type of death, but for every death. They would have died at that moment, because that was the moment God knew from creation. Satan did not know that. Satan requested a tornado that was already going to happen without the request. Job was saving them from Satan taking them to Satan's part of sheol. Job was making an offering that would provide their soul and spirit an eternity with God, because as the father, that was his duty to do.

Job was a literal human. Job represents both the nation of Israel and the church. Not that either have considered Job that often.

 

[Giuliano]

Why would offering sacrifice for his family be a mistake? They were not for just one type of death, but for every death. They would have died at that moment, because that was the moment God knew from creation. Satan did not know that. Satan requested a tornado that was already going to happen without the request. Job was saving them from Satan taking them to Satan's part of sheol. Job was making an offering that would provide their soul and spirit an eternity with God, because as the father, that was his duty to do.

Did Job's sacrifices work? No, all his children died.

You have an odd idea about sacrifices. No sacrifices can do any for good for people unless they repent. Saying, "I think my children may have sinned, so I'll sacrifice some animals" is foolish. Sacrificing animals could not guarantee peple an eternity with God. Are you serious here, or are you typing away without thinking?

Job was a literal human. Job represents both the nation of Israel and the church. Not that either have considered Job that often.

And how do you know Job was a literal person? Were you there?

 

[Heart2Soul]

Let me try another approach. The problem we the readers need to tackle is how to defend the Perfection of God. If we perceive imperfections in God in our minds or have unexpressed doubts, how do we deal with them? The basic question in the book of Job is probably why do bad things happen to good people? My starting premise when dealing with doubts about God is that I have the problem. I attribute error to myself, not to God.
Compare Job to the prodigal son who was not content at home with his father. His life was comfortable, but he wondered if he might be happier on his own, away from his father. His basic problem, I think, was that he did not understand and appreciate the fact that his father loved him. He did not see the love of his father and did not love his father that much. So he asked for his inheritance, got it and left. Things went downhill and finally disastrous. When he came to his senses, he wondered if he should go home. He was not presuming it would be, he did not assume his father loved him -- and he said to himself he would be willing to work for his father as a laborer if not accepted as a son when he returned.

What the prodigal son learned from his experiences on his own was the lesson of love. He finally perceived that his father did care about him. It was real, and not an act. His brother, who never left home, still did not understand that and was resentful. Those who err and are then forgiven learn the lesson of love. Those who are forgiven much love much as Jesus put it.

Now let me begin my critique of Job. He was just, he was righteous, he was perfect in a legalistic way. Perfect in Hebrew has two spellings -- one is 440, the other is 490. The book of Job uses the 440 type to Job. It never uses the 490 type, but I think it's inferred if you see the 50 of Pentecost being added to Job's initial 440 type. He reached a different kind of perfection after Pentecost.

We are told Job was righteous; but the book does not say he was wise or loving. He was neither at the beginning. His family life was a wreck emotionally. Superficially everything looks good with all the wealth, but if we allow ourselves to feel his situation by using our emotions, we can see all was not well.

You probably wouldn't have enjoyed being around Job. His children didn't. He had given them wealth so they could live on their own, and they took the money and ran. Rich people can be like that: You want your children to be rich and successful since they are seen as extensions of self. I think Job's children felt that way about him. My evidence? They visited each other and not him. I find the following a shocking picture of Job's family life:

Job 1:2 And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters.
3 His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east.
4 And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them.

Seven days a week and seven sons suggests to me they never visited Job. What was Job doing?

5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

I'm sure you've been around people who are critical of almost everything you and others do. They are busy worrying about things that aren't worth worrying about. Job wasn't the type to be overly critically of others verbally, but he was a worrier. You've probably been around this type of person too. They might not accuse you openly of sinning, but you can tell from their attitude that they think you might be sinning. Such people are miserable to be around.

Now let's move on to Job's wife. What kind of woman was she? Was she a godly woman of the sort whose seed would want to tread down the seed of the serpent? Or was she an ungodly woman who produced children of the seed of the serpent? I say the latter since she sided with Satan and advised God to curse God and die. And yes, there was something wrong with Job's children. Yes, they were of the seed of the serpent since their mother was. But what was the problem? We're in deep territory here involving views that remain controversial.

The problem again was Job. Spiritually, the "fallen woman" cannot redeem herself completely. She must be joined to an unfallen male who provides her spiritual covering the way Boaz provided Ruth a spiritual covering. Ruth came from a cursed tribe and converted to the worship of the One True God; and then Boaz covered her. There are examples in the New Testament where Jesus rescues "fallen women" -- not by marrying them and having sex with them but by providing them the proper spiritual covering.

I say Job failed to "cleave" to his wife according to the commandment. Note please that Eve was not told to cleave to Adam. She remained under the curse and had produced children under that curse. Job was right, in a way, to be uncomfortable about his children. I say he erred by failing to love his wife. If he had loved her more fully, she would have changed and been converted herself.

Few people notice that neither Satan nor Job's wife is mentioned at the end of the book. Why the omission? It's a glaring omission to me that demands an answer. My answer is that Job did cleave to his wife following his revelation from God -- he loved her as a man should love his wife -- and the two became one -- neither male nor female -- spiritually one although you could say they had two physical bodies. Satan, the male personification of trouble, is also not worth mentioning at the end since the "satanic" in Job had been defeated and changed, transmuted, etc.

Now out of this newly blessed union, we see Job's children also reborn. (I believe in reincarnation, so it presents no problem for me.) There is no hint of Job worrying about them needlessly or of offering sacrifices on their behalf. What folly is it anyway to offer sacrifices to God for the sins of others? If Job's sons had sinned, Job couldn't solve that through burnt sacrifices. They would have needed to repent before being forgiven. Job had been falling into thinking God could be placated by animal sacrifices -- and it didn't matter who offered them. Job's vision of God in the beginning was that God was angry and vengeful -- and enjoyed seeing animals being killed. Job thought maybe if he gave God enjoyment by killing animals, God would spare his children just in case they had sinned. Thank goodness, all that goes away at the end.

The door Job opened for Satan to enter was fear....
That thing I FEARED the MOST has come upon me....
I believe God allowed Job to be tested in order to let his faith be proven.

 

[DPMartin]

Why these 4 different words here?
Job 17:8-9:
The virtuous are horrified when they see me.
The innocent rise up against the ungodly.
The righteous keep moving forward,
And those with clean hands become stronger and stronger.

I don't know what version you posted but its quite different from the KJV:


Job 17:4　 For thou hast hid their heart from understanding: therefore shalt thou not exalt them.　
Job 17:5　 He that speaketh flattery to his friends, even the eyes of his children shall fail.　
Job 17:6　 He hath made me also a byword of the people; and aforetime I was as a tabret.　
Job 17:7　 Mine eye also is dim by reason of sorrow, and all my members are as a shadow.　
Job 17:8　 Upright men shall be astonied at this, and the innocent shall stir up himself against the hypocrite.　
Job 17:9　 The righteous also shall hold on his way, and he that hath clean hands shall be stronger and stronger.　
Job 17:10　 But as for you all, do ye return, and come now: for I cannot find one wise man among you.　

but what is fitting to be posted here is Job speaks to he "that speaketh flattery to his friends" one "cannot find one wise man among you"

 

[Giuliano]

The door Job opened for Satan to enter was fear....
That thing I FEARED the MOST has come upon me....
I believe God allowed Job to be tested in order to let his faith be proven.

Indeed, and what is the most important commandment? Love God. How can we love God if we have wrong ideas about Him? If we know -- really know -- that God is Love, then we will also love Him. If we imagine God might be imperfect, we are probably going to fear.

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Job had "heard" about God and wanted to beleive the best about Him; but Job had not "met" God. Elihu speaks, and the the LORD "answers" Job out of the whirlwind.

At one point, Job says he's going to stop talking after being reprimanded by the LORD.

Job 40:4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.

I read God's answer as telling him to stop groveling. "Stand up like a man!"

6 Then answered the Lord unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.

I think Job felt some relief when he realized he couldn't hide his thoughts from God -- and he hadn't been struck dead. He felt it was safe to talk to God.

42:2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

God found out God is Love; and perfect love casteth out fear. God does not to see people groveling or in fear.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Indeed, and what is the most important commandment? Love God. How can we love God if we have wrong ideas about Him? If we know -- really know -- that God is Love, then we will also love Him. If we imagine God might be imperfect, we are probably going to fear.

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Job had "heard" about God and wanted to beleive the best about Him; but Job had not "met" God. Elihu speaks, and the the LORD "answers" Job out of the whirlwind.

At one point, Job says he's going to stop talking after being reprimanded by the LORD.

Job 40:4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.

I read God's answer as telling him to stop groveling. "Stand up like a man!"

6 Then answered the Lord unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.

I think Job felt some relief when he realized he couldn't hide his thoughts from God -- and he hadn't been struck dead. He felt it was safe to talk to God.

42:2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

God found out God is Love; and perfect love casteth out fear. God does not to see people groveling or in fear.

Nice job! And God knew that Job feared....and when Job confessed it out of his own mouth it revealed a hidden fault in his heart.
Doesn't God say we will all be tested by fire and our hearts purified? So without the testing Job might have lived with a hidden fear all his life....but that test purged his heart and he grew strong in his faith in God.

 

[Heart2Soul]

@Giuliano .....I edited my last post...but to continue on....so Job was rewarded for passing the test and received 100fold of what was taken...Hallelujah!

 

[Waiting on him]

Why did God call Enoch, Elijah, before the Flood?

A foreshadowing of Christ. As is the whole book.

 

[Giuliano]

Nice job! And God knew that Job feared....and when Job confessed it out of his own mouth it revealed a hidden fault in his heart.
Doesn't God say we will all be tested by fire and our hearts purified? So without the testing Job might have lived with a hidden fear all his life....but that test purged his heart and he grew strong in his faith in God.

I find it interesting that God had that hedge around Job for so long. Job had lived with that fear, practically inviting Satan in; but only God knows when he's safe to let Satan loose so we can come to a better level. "In all things, give thanks."

 

[Timtofly]

Did Job's sacrifices work? No, all his children died.

You have an odd idea about sacrifices. No sacrifices can do any for good for people unless they repent. Saying, "I think my children may have sinned, so I'll sacrifice some animals" is foolish. Sacrificing animals could not guarantee peple an eternity with God. Are you serious here, or are you typing away without thinking?
And how do you know Job was a literal person? Were you there?

If Job was not a literal person, why accuse me of what I wrote? If it was all symbolic and spiritual then why claim a spiritual non-literal sacrifice is meaningless?

Sacrifices do not prevent humans from dying. The very first sacrifice was done by God himself, and God used the skin to clothe a naked Adam and Eve. The only sacrifice that can reverse God's mind in any form, can only be done by God Himself.

Any one who rejects any sacrifice of the righteous denies the sacrifice of God.

If you think sacrifice to idols and human understanding works, that would explain the way you view a sacrifice.

 

[Timtofly]

A foreshadowing of Christ. As is the whole book.

I was looking for an answer from Enoch111. Not sure if my quoting you was intended or not.

Enoch, Elijah, Job, and the Flood were all literal humans and an event.

 

[Giuliano]

If Job was not a literal person, why accuse me of what I wrote? If it was all symbolic and spiritual then why claim a spiritual non-literal sacrifice is meaningless?

Do you know how to give a direct answer a direct question? How do you know Job was a literal person? Were you there?

Sacrifices do not prevent humans from dying. The very first sacrifice was done by God himself, and God used the skin to clothe a naked Adam and Eve. The only sacrifice that can reverse God's mind in any form, can only be done by God Himself.

More fabrication. Genesis does not say God killed any animals. It says God gave them coats of skin (not skins as some translations have it).

Any one who rejects any sacrifice of the righteous denies the sacrifice of God.

What are you trying to say? Do you know?

Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

No sacrifice of an animal does any good unless people regret the evil they have done.

Proverbs 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.

Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

If you think sacrifice to idols and human understanding works, that would explain the way you view a sacrifice.

Sorry, but I've no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Enoch111]

Why does no one ever speak of the fourth friend?

Because he was not a friend, just an onlooker. And in the end he too assumed that Job was guilty rather than innocent. Job's friends were not real friends, in that they assumed his guilt rather than try to understand why a righteous man was being subjected to such enormous calamities. God said that Job's friends had not spoken of God what was right. Job was to offer sacrifices on their behalf and pray for them.

 

[Enoch111]

Enoch, Elijah, Job, and the Flood were all literal humans and an event.

Absolutely. If anyone denies that they were all literal and historical, they make God out to be a liar. And that is treading on dangerous ground.

 

[Giuliano]

Absolutely. If anyone denies that they were all literal and historical, they make God out to be a liar. And that is treading on dangerous ground.

Do you think the people Jesus mentioned in parables were also literal and historical?

 

[Waiting on him]

Because he was not a friend, just an onlooker. And in the end he too assumed that Job was guilty rather than innocent. Job's friends were not real friends, in that they assumed his guilt rather than try to understand why a righteous man was being subjected to such enormous calamities. God said that Job's friends had not spoken of God what was right. Job was to offer sacrifices on their behalf and pray for them.

Job 32:2 KJV
Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.

Elihu, that's an interesting name

 

[Waiting on him]

Job 32:2 KJV
Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.

Elihu, that's an interesting name

Job sounds as if he has the same problem as many of us have

 

[Enoch111]

Do you think the people Jesus mentioned in parables were also literal and historical?

It is entirely possible that Jesus was using illustrations from real life (e.g. the Good Samaritan). We know that the narrative of the Rich Man and Lazarus was factual, not merely parabolic. The Lord was lifting the veil from the afterlife and showing us what transpired in Hades before the resurrection of Christ. The word Hades was wrongly translated as "hell" in the KJV.

And in hell [Hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Luke 16:23)

καὶ ἐν τῷ ᾅδῃ ἐπάρας τοὺς ὀφθαλμοὺς αὐτοῦ ὑπάρχων ἐν βασάνοις ὁρᾷ τὸν Ἀβραὰμ ἀπὸ μακρόθεν καὶ Λάζαρον ἐν τοῖς κόλποις αὐτοῦ.

Those who teach the false doctrine of Soul Sleep insist that this is a parable because it totally destroys their misconception.