Last days are here today! Are you ready to meet Jesus in the clouds??

[Randy Kluth]

You make a general charge...but yet point out NOT a single particular thing to which you quote me then disagree.

Nor have you declare a specific belief about One thing, and offered a Verifying Scripture.

If it is Pre-Trib rapture you disagree with...
Say so, and Why....and What Scripture notifies your per your Belief?

Glory to God,
Taken

My charges have been anything but "general!" I've been saying all along that your Pretrib Rapture assumption is based on belief without theology. There is no Pretrib Theology in the Bible--none at all. I've even read admission from renowned Pretribbers say that they have no explicit theology stating their belief in this regard. Usually they add that Postrib had no theology either, which is absolutely untrue.

2 Thes 2 explicitly teaches that Christ's Coming for his Church *cannot* take place before Antichrist comes. It is then *at the destruction of Antichrist* that Christ returns for his Church.

This perfectly agrees with the scenario in Dan 7, which is the origin of this theology. There, Antichrist abuses God's saints until the Son of Man returns, in judgment, from heaven, to establish God's eternal Kingdom. This is what Paul is saying himself in 2 Thes 2.

Clear enough? I don't care what you believe. I'm just saying that your Pretrib belief is not based on explicit theology. That's all.

 

[Timtofly]

My charges have been anything but "general!" I've been saying all along that your Pretrib Rapture assumption is based on belief without theology. There is no Pretrib Theology in the Bible--none at all. I've even read admission from renowned Pretribbers say that they have no explicit theology stating their belief in this regard. Usually they add that Postrib had no theology either, which is absolutely untrue.

2 Thes 2 explicitly teaches that Christ's Coming for his Church *cannot* take place before Antichrist comes. It is then *at the destruction of Antichrist* that Christ returns for his Church.

This perfectly agrees with the scenario in Dan 7, which is the origin of this theology. There, Antichrist abuses God's saints until the Son of Man returns, in judgment, from heaven, to establish God's eternal Kingdom. This is what Paul is saying himself in 2 Thes 2.

Clear enough? I don't care what you believe. I'm just saying that your Pretrib belief is not based on explicit theology. That's all.

I keep telling people there is no Antichrist. No one can be prepared for a non-event, yet all seem to want to prevent this non-event.

Reminds me of Don Quixote. The US has it's Don, and all the fundamentals are helping him knock down all the windmills.

Well now they are called Strawmen.

The falling away is happening, the church is being judged, the strawmen are being killed, and there is no Antichrist. So Satan is happy, and just waiting for God to fall into his trap, because Satan deceived himself, along with everyone else, as usual.

 

[GISMYS_7]

[URL='https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/2-Thessalonians-2-4/']2 Thessalonians 2:4 (Anti-christ)- Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Revelation 19:20[/URL] - And the beast(anti-christ) was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[Timtofly]

2 Thessalonians 2:4 (Anti-christ)- Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Revelation 19:20 - And the beast(anti-christ) was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

You can parentheses any human you want, but God says Satan. Of course, the government church tries to kill all who expose this one particular human as Satan...

Satan is the only being in the Bible who actually wants to be God. Most humanity, refuse to accept God even exists, much less think they can be God. Only Satan can put any human into a position of antichrist, but he will never let another human take over the top pig position.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Satan and the anti-Christ are not the same person, but at the beginning of the Great Tribulation Satan will indwell (possess) the anti-Christ becoming the source of his power. (Rev. 13:4) Then in Rev. 19:19-20 we read that the anti-Christ and false prophet are captured and thrown into the Lake of Fire, while in Rev. 20:1-3 Satan is captured and confined for 1000 years. This shows that they are two different personages.
Are Satan And The Anti-Christ The Same? – Grace thru faith

 

[Timtofly]

Satan and the anti-Christ are not the same person, but at the beginning of the Great Tribulation Satan will indwell (possess) the anti-Christ becoming the source of his power. (Rev. 13:4) Then in Rev. 19:19-20 we read that the anti-Christ and false prophet are captured and thrown into the Lake of Fire, while in Rev. 20:1-3 Satan is captured and confined for 1000 years. This shows that they are two different personages.
Are Satan And The Anti-Christ The Same? – Grace thru faith

Revelation 13:14 does not say indwell once. Humans worship both the false prophet and Satan equally as two beings.

Revelation 19:19-20 says the beast and the false prophet. No Antichrist mentioned at all.

I agree, however it is the dragon standing on the sea shore, and only the false prophet coming out of the sea. Only two persons. The "antichrist" is the image and not a person either, unless God let's this beast be a person, and that beast is thrown into the lake of fire. Satan will always be the dragon standing on the land, no matter what form it takes. Once a dragon, one will always, act and talk like a dragon.

 

[GISMYS_7]

The last days are here today! Are you ready to meet Jesus in the clouds??
Jesus is telling the generation that sees all the signs He named would not die before His return. PTL. We are that generation. We are seeing the signs Jesus named Israel became a nation again after 2000 years May 15,1948 and the Jews are being brought back to their homeland Israel and the Jewish people regained control of Jerusalem July 1967 and we see the HUGE increase of man's knowledge and travel Bible prophecy talks about and the huge increase of big 6.0 + earthquakes and volcano eruptions worldwide, sink holes and the signs in the heavens=blood moons and weather changes, plague, pestilence!! Get ready to meet Jesus!!! Don't try to reject the rapture and be left behind.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I keep telling people there is no Antichrist. No one can be prepared for a non-event, yet all seem to want to prevent this non-event.

Reminds me of Don Quixote. The US has it's Don, and all the fundamentals are helping him knock down all the windmills.

Well now they are called Strawmen.

The falling away is happening, the church is being judged, the strawmen are being killed, and there is no Antichrist. So Satan is happy, and just waiting for God to fall into his trap, because Satan deceived himself, along with everyone else, as usual.

Sounds like you got it all worked out? I don't personally wish to base my predictions on a denial of the Antichrist. The theology of Antichrist began with Dan 7 and the Little Horn, who "boasts" before God. He opposes everything that is of God, except himself. When he is broken the Kingdom of God can come. The Son of Man will come from the court of heaven to judge him. Therefore, the Apostle John called him the "Antichrist."

 

[Timtofly]

Sounds like you got it all worked out? I don't personally wish to base my predictions on a denial of the Antichrist. The theology of Antichrist began with Dan 7 and the Little Horn, who "boasts" before God. He opposes everything that is of God, except himself. When he is broken the Kingdom of God can come. The Son of Man will come from the court of heaven to judge him. Therefore, the Apostle John called him the "Antichrist."

I agree with John that Satan is the one and only antichrist. Satan did tempt Jesus to bow down and worship him. Jesus just quoted Scripture. Do you have a verse to stake your claim? Matthew 4:1-11.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I agree with John that Satan is the one and only antichrist. Satan did tempt Jesus to bow down and worship him. Jesus just quoted Scripture. Do you have a verse to stake your claim? Matthew 4:1-11.

I have an entire chapter: Dan 7. This chapter formed the basis of Paul's teaching on the Man of Sin. And yes, he will be a "man."

 

[farouk]

Like someone else said, you added "on Rapture day," which you presuppose to be a Pretrib Rapture. That is *not* said, and you are therefore *adding* to the Scriptures what does not belong there.

John 14.3; 1 Thessalonians 4.16-18. 1 Corinthians 11.26.

Although your interpretation might be different, it's hard to say that ppl are making it up.

 

[farouk]

I agree with John that Satan is the one and only antichrist. Satan did tempt Jesus to bow down and worship him. Jesus just quoted Scripture. Do you have a verse to stake your claim? Matthew 4:1-11.

There are also many antichrists: 1 John 2.18; 2 John 7.

 

[GISMYS_7]

ROFL. Anti-christ like satan has many names and the "beast" is one of the names.

 

[Giuliano]

The last days are here today! Are you ready to meet Jesus in the clouds??
Jesus is telling the generation that sees all the signs He named would not die before His return. PTL. We are that generation. We are seeing the signs Jesus named Israel became a nation again after 2000 years May 15,1948 and the Jews are being brought back to their homeland Israel and the Jewish people regained control of Jerusalem July 1967 and we see the HUGE increase of man's knowledge and travel Bible prophecy talks about and the huge increase of big 6.0 + earthquakes and volcano eruptions worldwide, sink holes and the signs in the heavens=blood moons and weather changes, plague, pestilence!! Get ready to meet Jesus!!! Don't try to reject the rapture and be left behind.

So how is the Temple going to be destroyed? He said those signs would occur before the Temple was destroyed. It was destroyed. "That" generation saw it.

 

[GISMYS_7]

So how is the Temple going to be destroyed? He said those signs would occur before the Temple was destroyed. It was destroyed. "That" generation saw it.

Do some real Bible study the temple Jesus was talking about was His body.
John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

John 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

John 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

 

[Taken]

My charges have been anything but "general!" I've been saying all along that your Pretrib Rapture assumption is based on belief without theology. There is no Pretrib Theology in the Bible--none at all. I've even read admission from renowned Pretribbers say that they have no explicit theology stating their belief in this regard. Usually they add that Postrib had no theology either, which is absolutely untrue.

2 Thes 2 explicitly teaches that Christ's Coming for his Church *cannot* take place before Antichrist comes. It is then *at the destruction of Antichrist* that Christ returns for his Church.

This perfectly agrees with the scenario in Dan 7, which is the origin of this theology. There, Antichrist abuses God's saints until the Son of Man returns, in judgment, from heaven, to establish God's eternal Kingdom. This is what Paul is saying himself in 2 Thes 2.

Clear enough? I don't care what you believe. I'm just saying that your Pretrib belief is not based on explicit theology. That's all.

Ok gotcha.
Personally I don't care what "theologies of men" say.

I do believe in a pre-(end of days as we know it, Tribulation) Catching Up of Christ's Church.
(In English, commonly called the Rapture, translated from Latin (rapturous ) and Greek (harpazo)...meaning caught up).

2 Thes 2 explicitly teaches that Christ's Coming for his Church *cannot* take place before Antichrist comes.

I believe that words in Scripture become commonly (by men) "interchanged" and thus the understanding of men become different.

There IS language in Scripture of Jesus "Coming" and "Returning" to Earth.
Not the same thing. ^

There is Scripture of Gods intent to send His Wrath and Great Tribulation, as the world has never before experienced, upon the Earth and those of the Earth (World).

There is Scripture of who are the members of Christ's Church.

There is Scripture of His Church MEMBERS NOT being Appointed to Wrath.

There is Scripture of Jesus being in Heaven, "coming" down to the Clouds, calling His Church "UP" TO meet Him....between Heaven AND the Earth.

There is Scripture of God sending Servants to Earth and Sealing them, During the G-Tribulation period....their focus is ON the Jews and Tribes of Israel.

There is Scriptures of God sending A servant Angel to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, to give one last opportunity for the whole world to accept His Offer of Salvation.

After that...(Void of God, Void of Christ, Void of saints, (soul & spirit), Void of Israel (soul & spirit), Void of Christ's Church (body, soul, spirit) being ON the Earth...
death and destruction will plague the earth and its inhabitants..and fallen spirits.
War between good and evil spirits in the lower heavens...

THEN Christ the Lord Jesus "Returns" to Earth, With Clouds, with His saints, to gather the bodies of the Faithful Dead, raising them in Glory...and the unfaithful shall return to dust.

Each of those events require a deep time consuming study. I know what time I have spent, but can not speak for others.
Just saying; reading a couple of Scriptures does not teach or prove or disprove an individual's position.

We are not waiting for the anti-Christ to COME...The introduction of the REAVEALING of the Anti-Christ...Is the Time of The Beginning of Wrath upon the Earth and its inhabitants.

IF Christ's Church were SUBJECT to Wrath... by Consequence they Would NEED to BE ON the Earth to experience the WRATH.

The First Wrath mentioned is The LAMBS Wrath...
You could ask yourself WHY?
Who would be Subject to the Wrath of the Lamb?
The answer is...Israel, who rejects Jesus as their Christ Messiah.
But that does NOT Apply to a Member of Christ's Church...who Believe IN Jesus the Christ Messiah AND God.

It's a matter of difference between you and I about Christ Jesus Lifting UP His Church Off the Face of the Earth...Before Wrath Begins...(as God caused the rain to Lift up Noah's Ark, saving Noah from Gods Wrath upon the Earth and its inhabitants...or not.)

You could ask yourself, what you (the Church) would be doing on Earth during the Tribulation...and WHAT Scripture talks about the Church ON Earth during the G-Tribulation.

Anyway, take care, God Bless,
Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Giuliano]

Do some real Bible study the temple Jesus was talking about was His body.
John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

John 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

John 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

No, I know about that passage. Why try to correct me when it's you who needs the "real" Bible study?

That passage does involve telling people about signs. This one does:

Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
. . .
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

The disciples were not raptured away. They were afflicted and killed. Yet ministers often bend this passage to mean us today and then foolishly also teach Christians won't be afflicted or killed -- they'll be "raptured" away.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

See? The Temple had to be there for the abomination to be in the holy place. Today there is no Temple.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus did come then at the end of that age; and I expect him to come again when this age ends. It's not going to involve rapturing people away.

 

[GISMYS_7]

No, I know about that passage. Why try to correct me when it's you who needs the "real" Bible study?

That passage does involve telling people about signs. This one does:

Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
. . .
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

The disciples were not raptured away. They were afflicted and killed. Yet ministers often bend this passage to mean us today and then foolishly also teach Christians won't be afflicted or killed -- they'll be "raptured" away.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

See? The Temple had to be there for the abomination to be in the holy place. Today there is no Temple.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus did come then at the end of that age; and I expect him to come again when this age ends. It's not going to involve rapturing people away.

Simple=the last days generation is generation that sees all the signs Jesus named== US

 

[Randy Kluth]

Ok gotcha.
Personally I don't care what "theologies of men" say.

I do believe in a pre-(end of days as we know it, Tribulation) Catching Up of Christ's Church.
(In English, commonly called the Rapture, translated from Latin (rapturous ) and Greek (harpazo)...meaning caught up).

I believe that words in Scripture become commonly (by men) "interchanged" and thus the understanding of men become different.

There IS language in Scripture of Jesus "Coming" and "Returning" to Earth.
Not the same thing. ^

There is Scripture of Gods intent to send His Wrath and Great Tribulation, as the world has never before experienced, upon the Earth and those of the Earth (World).

There is Scripture of who are the members of Christ's Church.

There is Scripture of His Church MEMBERS NOT being Appointed to Wrath.

There is Scripture of Jesus being in Heaven, "coming" down to the Clouds, calling His Church "UP" TO meet Him....between Heaven AND the Earth.

There is Scripture of God sending Servants to Earth and Sealing them, During the G-Tribulation period....their focus is ON the Jews and Tribes of Israel.

There is Scriptures of God sending A servant Angel to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, to give one last opportunity for the whole world to accept His Offer of Salvation.

After that...(Void of God, Void of Christ, Void of saints, (soul & spirit), Void of Israel (soul & spirit), Void of Christ's Church (body, soul, spirit) being ON the Earth...
death and destruction will plague the earth and its inhabitants..and fallen spirits.
War between good and evil spirits in the lower heavens...

THEN Christ the Lord Jesus "Returns" to Earth, With Clouds, with His saints, to gather the bodies of the Faithful Dead, raising them in Glory...and the unfaithful shall return to dust.

Each of those events require a deep time consuming study. I know what time I have spent, but can not speak for others.
Just saying; reading a couple of Scriptures does not teach or prove or disprove an individual's position.

We are not waiting for the anti-Christ to COME...The introduction of the REAVEALING of the Anti-Christ...Is the Time of The Beginning of Wrath upon the Earth and its inhabitants.

IF Christ's Church were SUBJECT to Wrath... by Consequence they Would NEED to BE ON the Earth to experience the WRATH.

The First Wrath mentioned is The LAMBS Wrath...
You could ask yourself WHY?
Who would be Subject to the Wrath of the Lamb?
The answer is...Israel, who rejects Jesus as their Christ Messiah.
But that does NOT Apply to a Member of Christ's Church...who Believe IN Jesus the Christ Messiah AND God.

It's a matter of difference between you and I about Christ Jesus Lifting UP His Church Off the Face of the Earth...Before Wrath Begins...(as God caused the rain to Lift up Noah's Ark, saving Noah from Gods Wrath upon the Earth and its inhabitants...or not.)

You could ask yourself, what you (the Church) would be doing on Earth during the Tribulation...and WHAT Scripture talks about the Church ON Earth during the G-Tribulation.

Anyway, take care, God Bless,
Glory to God,
Taken

Thank you "Taken" for a sincere and rationally explained answer. If I was committed to these truths, as you are, I would still be Pretrib. But I'm not.

I repeat: there is zero explicit teaching that the Church will be caught up to heaven before the Reign of Antichrist--none! None of the truths you cite meet this standard, and I could prove it. It is true that Christians will not suffer the Wrath of the Lamb. Granted. But this is *not* the same thing as saying the Church will not be here suffering during the time of God's wrath against the world. And it assumes the the time of Antichrist's Reign is to be entirely equated with God's Wrath--it isn't.

For 3.5 years the book of Revelation says that the saints will be persecuted by the Beast. These "saints" are obviously "Christians," since the book of Revelation was written to Christians! There is no indication that "saints" refers to something else. You *know* these are Christians, and you know they are not suffering God's wrath!

So let's return to explicit teaching, because if God wanted us to know the answer to this question, He would speak clearly on it, right? And He did. 2 Thessalonians 2 clearly indicates that something must happen before Christ comes back for his Church. The Antichrist must be revealed. And the reason he must be revealed first is so that when Christ comes he will destroy him.

So 2 things have to happen before Christ returns. 1) the Antichrist must be revealed, and 2) the Antichrist must be destroyed.

This is the pattern: Antichrist 1st, and then the Coming of Christ. Why should we look for the coming of Antichrist, and not Christ? It is because the Scriptures tell us to, because Christ told us to! Actually both things are required of us. One of the things we do as we are looking forward to Christ's Coming is that we stay prepared by avoiding deceptions and by preaching the gospel, helping others to avoid these deceptions, because we are told *deceptions must precede his Coming!*

And again, this is the reason we are to watch for Antichrist--not just to watch for THE Antichrist, but to watch for *all Antichrists.* We are being tested by counterfeits, and must help others know the alternative to the lies of Satan. We are presenting Christ in contrast with the philosophy of this world, which depends on the natural man. That doesn't achieve the righteousness of God.

No, Postrib Doctrine *is* explicit biblical teaching. You can't change God's word, and you won't be able to fight God's Spirit. This isn't me vs. you. It's whatever God says, I must conform to it. But we have to be convinced in our own minds--not just because someone else tries to be persuasive. And I'm okay with that.

 

[Giuliano]

Simple=the last days generation is generation that sees all the signs Jesus named== US

That is not what Jesus said. "There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." Can we look around and see the Temple?

Have we seen the abomination of desolation showing up yet in the holy place?