Of course there was. The tree in the garden was the first test.
I was referring to the hardships, the reign of sin and death, in the world.
Tong
R0183
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Of course there was. The tree in the garden was the first test.
I never denied God's sovereignty. Being in charge doesn't equal complete control.Not so sir. I choose scriptures. I choose what God says in His scriptures.
Look at the case of Moses for example. His parents knew not that Moses is a chosen of God, but they did what they did by their own will and choice. Do you think that Moses survived the river by chance? Do you think that the rest that happened to him was all by chance? Or would you think that God had his hand on that, without making anyone a robot?
Do you want more of scriptures that speaks of the sovereignty of God?
Here's another for you to consider. The matter between Isaac and Ismael.
Galatians 4:30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”
There's more if needed. And by the way, that's scriptures speaking, not me.
Tong
R0179
Of course. We don't have infinite choices. We exist within the limits God created for men. I can't flap my arms and will myself to fly. But with enough self motivation I could create a flying machine.God does not cause man's actions. Man's actions are his (man's) doing. But the actions that man do, are only those that can be chosen to be done by him within that which God had caused to be a reality to the man.
Really? I wonder why. Well, that is the nature of birth. It is the same with regards the second birth, which is of no choice of ours, but of God.Yes, the Divine Plan begins and ends with Complete Perfection, but allows for the inevitability of evil opposition to it for which the Perfect Remedy is provided in conjunction with Divine Judgment.
Funny thing, Tong. I woke up this morning and a thought entered my mind to the effect that no-one is born physically of their own volition or choice. In other words our being in existence is completely decided without our determining whether or not it will be so. This truth is sometimes expressed negatively with the words, "Well, I didn't ask to be born."
I like the process by which, once born, we find out what we are in, and why it is the way it is.
The prohibition on eating fruit from the Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good and Evil was a fair test in that it set a perfect standard for the relationship between God and man, one which is based on trust between us. It was a fair test because God warned of the consequences of breaching that trust.
It just came to mind just now, having read my post to you about the son of the bondwoman, that the sovereignty of God again struck me and made me realized yet again, who I am in relation to Him. A sovereignty such as to decree "the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman".I never denied God's sovereignty. Being in charge doesn't equal complete control.
Of course I don't take man s will to be equal with God's will. God gives men a bit of dominion while he has ultimate dominion.I am not saying that you deny God's sovereignty. What I said to you in one of my post is that "You seem to strip God of having a determined will as the Sovereign Creator, just because of man's "free will". You apparently take man's "free will" as big as God's sovereignty, if not, even have more power in a sense, or somehow diminish God's sovereignty over him.
God controls all things? Really? Does God control all of men's evil actions and thoughts? If I control someone, thier actions are actually my actions. If God meticulously controls everything, then he is the only sinner, and we are merely puppets whose strings he pulls. If I control my computer, completely, everything that comes out of it is only what I put in and moreso with God, because he could control every brain cell and make me only think his thoughts. But he doesn't. And you know how I know? Because I'm not capable of being perfect, as I would be if a totally Holy God controlled every fiber of my being.seems by that, that you don't see God as having complete control of His creation, thus believe not that He is in control. But does not scriptures teach us that God sustains all things? For even the tiny sparrow won't fall apart from God's will. God controls all things. If you can't believe that because perhaps of the idea of man's "free will", do you rather believe that God is not in control of all creation? That would be unimaginable, at least in my mind, if God is not in control of all things. What chaos would that be? Unimaginable disorder to the highest degree! And if God is not in control, then who is?
It's good to know that you at least acknowledge that man gets to choose only as what choices or opportunities of choosing God had caused to be possible and available to him in his lifetime.Of course. We don't have infinite choices. We exist within the limits God created for men. I can't flap my arms and will myself to fly. But with enough self motivation I could create a flying machine.
But when you affirm unconditional election, you erase the most important choice of all, that men can make.
But while you say that, you seem to give us the impression that God cannot elect you to be among His people, if you don't allow Him by the power of your "free will", or if you don't love and choose him first, and that even while, scriptures says that it is God who choose first and He is the one who love first.Of course I don't take man s will to be equal with God's will. God gives men a bit of dominion while he has ultimate dominion.
Indeed He is the Author of our Salvation...His Plan to Save us...His Man to Save us...We Can but obey!It is the same with regards the second birth, which is of no choice of ours, but of God.
As I said in my previous post, perhaps you can explain to us what is being in charge and what is in complete control. Because, it seems we have a different take on that. And so that we mean the same thing when we speak of being in charge and being in control, that i ask you to explain what you meant by those phrases in your post.God controls all things? Really? Does God control all of men's evil actions and thoughts? If I control someone, thier actions are actually my actions. If God meticulously controls everything, then he is the only sinner, and we are merely puppets whose strings he pulls. If I control my computer, completely, everything that comes out of it is only what I put in and moreso with God, because he could control every brain cell and make me only think his thoughts. But he doesn't. And you know how I know? Because I'm not capable of being perfect, as I would be if a totally Holy God controlled every fiber of my being.
Claiming God is meticulously controlling a world filled with evil leaves you with an evil God.
You complicate the simple. Jesus chose Paul for a job because he knew Paul was the right man for that job. He knew that Paul would convert, but Paul still had the choice. That's not what unconditional election is. UE is choosing people for salvation (not for a certain job and bypassing others, therefore giving them no hope of ever receiving eternal life through no fault of their own.It's good to know that you at least acknowledge that man gets to choose only as what choices or opportunities of choosing God had caused to be possible and available to him in his lifetime.
I thought I told you already in one of my post. Here, let me quote, "Election is based not from anything outside of God." In that sense, it is conditional, in relation to what is inherent in God, His Divine nature. In another sense, it is unconditional, if in relation to what is outside of God, such as from the doings of man. And that does not at all have God taking away the elects' "free will" or making the choice. For even in Paul's case, Paul still had made the choice to believe Jesus Christ, while scriptures clearly testify that God had sovereignly chosen him. If you'll look at it, Paul was yet an unbeliever, even literally, in words and deeds, the enemy of Christ. Paul did not choose Jesus so that Jesus chose him. Apparently, it's the other way around. Now, would the Lord's purpose in him be accomplished if he chose not to believe? Would the Lord had failed or made a mistake in choosing Paul if Paul chose not to believe? Should God had left Paul as he was, doing what he was doing, what do you think became of Paul and of the many who came to be converted through his ministry?
Tong
R0186
Sure, we love him because he first loved us- but he loves all people and that's what you are not getting. In your system he loves some and hates others for no discernable reason.But while you say that, you seem to give us the impression that God cannot elect you to be among His people, if you don't allow Him by the power of your "free will", or if you don't love and choose him first, and that even while, scriptures says that it is God who choose first and He is the one who love first.
Did you not choose God because you love Him? But should that be the case, here's the truth: you love him because He first love you.
Tong
R0187
Lol, I just explained that. Are you actually reading my post?As I said in my previous post, perhaps you can explain to us what is being in charge and what is in complete control.
What you say there is in man's point of view. But God is not a man. His thoughts are far far farther than the heavens very different and greater than man's thoughts. Perhaps reading Job 37, 38 & 39 would be good to somehow set the tone in dealing with this subject. Control, in man's mind is limited to what his mind is capable of thinking of how it is that control all of His creation, from the simplest thing to the most complex of His creation. The systems that man discovers that governs the created world, including that concerning the human body, are just among the many and various ways wherein God, in my thinking, controls and sustains His creation.
Now with regards your issue on God's control over man, you asked "Does God control all of men's evil actions and thoughts?". Where man's choice is involved, needless to say, God had given that part to man. God let's the man choose. God's control comes in, not in the making of the choice, but in the choices that He causes and allows to be encountered by each man.
No sir. Am not complicating things at all.You complicate the simple. Jesus chose Paul for a job because he knew Paul was the right man for that job. He knew that Paul would convert, but Paul still had the choice. That's not what unconditional election is. UE is choosing people for salvation (not for a certain job and bypassing others, therefore giving them no hope of ever receiving eternal life through no fault of their own.
Sure, we love him because he first loved us- but he loves all people and that's what you are not getting. In your system he loves some and hates others for no discernable reason.
Can you kindly tell me the post# or the link. I might had missed it.Lol, I just explained that. Are you actually reading my post?
Of course Job 37 isn't about God controlling men's actions or thoughts. I never said anything like that about God. Job 37, 38, 39 gives you an idea of God being the creator and sustainer of creation.Job 37 speaks of God being Lord over creation. I'm not sure how that applies to God controlling men's actions or thoughts. And your last paragraph is self-contradictory. That isn't complete control. To merely give men choices doesn't control the choices they make. You need to make up your mind because like most Calvinists you are resorting to doublespeak. They always, always try to squirm around this question. If God is only giving me a choice between two options, I am still sovereign in some sense over my choices. To be in complete control, God would have to actively choose every firing on every neuron in my brain, so that I only thought exactly what he caused me to think. anything less is not complete control.
I believe some people are beyond conversion because they have blasphemed the Spirit, that is, rejected him totally.Renniks, I have a couple of questions for you, and even to those who would like to give their answer: Is there any heart too hard for God that He could not convict, convince, and convert? Would God run out of ways to convict, convince, and convert the sinner?