Saved Or Predestined ???

[Tong2020]

All this tells me is that God allowed this Pharaoh to become the ruler for God's reasons. You need to study the difference between allowing and causing or ordaining.

Renniks: All this tells me is that God allowed this Pharaoh to become the ruler for God's reasons.

As I said in my post #650, "God was the one who made him Pharaoh, and at the exact time He is about to bring about His plan and purpose in him."

You seem to strip God of having a determined will as the Sovereign Creator, just because of man's "free will".

Don't forget who God is and who man is. That God has made from one blood every nation of "free willed" men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their pre-appointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings (Acts 17:26). Also, scriptures tells us that the authorities that exist are appointed by God (Rom. 13:1).

Renniks: You need to study the difference between allowing and causing or ordaining.

I had sir, even for quite a time now. You ought to do likewise. But to study is one thing, and to acknowledge is another thing. As in this case, you don't apparently acknowledge what God had purposely made of Pharaoh, that He did not simply allowed him to become king of Egypt. That it was not random and coincidental that this Pharaoh exist, had become the person he is, became a king of Egypt who was cruel to the Israelites. God did not wait for this kind of person to come along who is perfect for Him to use for His purpose.

Tong
R0173

 

[Renniks]

Renniks: All this tells me is that God allowed this Pharaoh to become the ruler for God's reasons.

As I said in my post #650, "God was the one who made him Pharaoh, and at the exact time He is about to bring about His plan and purpose in him."

You seem to strip God of having a determined will as the Sovereign Creator, just because of man's "free will".

Don't forget who God is and who man is. That God has made from one blood every nation of "free willed" men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their pre-appointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings (Acts 17:26). Also, scriptures tells us that the authorities that exist are appointed by God (Rom. 13:1).

Renniks: You need to study the difference between allowing and causing or ordaining.

I had sir, even for quite a time now. You ought to do likewise. But to study is one thing, and to acknowledge is another thing. As in this case, you don't apparently acknowledge what God had purposely made of Pharaoh, that He did not simply allowed him to become king of Egypt. That it was not random and coincidental that this Pharaoh exist, had become the person he is, became a king of Egypt who was cruel to the Israelites. God did not wait for this kind of person to come along who is perfect for Him to use for His purpose.

Tong
R0173

Your fatalism is showing. You can't affirm God causing all of a man's actions and affirm free will at the same time. Well, you can, but not logically. You are embracing a contradiction, if that's what you are trying to say.

 

[Tong2020]

It's simple firming up his resolve, so that God could show his power and the pitifulness of the Egyptian gods. It was for evangelizing, for redemption as God's plans always are.

It's wise to accept than to defend something that is indefensible. Firming up his resolve, when the man is already hard and had harden his heart? Evangelizing, when all that God does, could be said to be all for His purpose and plan? Your answer could be an answer to just about anything as to why God does any of the things he did.

In God's hardening of Pharaoh, whether Pharaoh had by his own, before hardened his heart, there is a lot said about God in there. One clearly is that God is sovereign over and upon his creature. That which cannot be denied and taken away from that, is the fact that God can do to man, with or without the knowledge or permission of the man, what He wills to do upon him, according to His purpose, pleasure, and for His glory. That is exactly one of the things that Paul tells us in Romans 9.

Tong
R0174

 

[Tong2020]

Because this world is a land of trial, it's not yet heaven. God created this trial in fairness, not slanting the odds deliberately in his favor. If I secretly rig the game, so I would win, would that not make me a cheater? God cannot do such as would be contrary to his character.

Sorry, but that does not really answer the question.

Besides, why do you say that this world is a land of trial? Does the Bible teach that?

Tong
R0175

 

[Renniks]

It's wise to accept than to defend something that is indefensible. Firming up his resolve, when the man is already hard and had harden his heart? Evangelizing, when all that God does, could be said to be all for His purpose and plan? Your answer could be an answer to just about anything as to why God does any of the things he did.

No, I was being specific to the question. God was showing the Egyptians who the true God was, since they worshiped false gods. Firming Pharaoh's resolve helped him accomplish that purpose.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Sorry, but that does not really answer the question.

Besides, why do you say that this world is a land of trial? Does the Bible teach that?

Tong
R0175

Hi Tong. Yes Sir. This world is full of trials and tribulations according to the Bible and my own experience. Have you read Hebrews 11 lately? Also these verses among numerous others...

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me you might have peace. In the world you shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Act 14:21-22 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch, (22) Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Rom 8:18-23 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (19) For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. (20) For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; (21) because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (22) For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. (23) Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Jas 1:2-3 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, (3) knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.

1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

 

[Renniks]

had sir, even for quite a time now. You ought to do likewise. But to study is one thing, and to acknowledge is another thing. As in this case, you don't apparently acknowledge what God had purposely made of Pharaoh, that He did not simply allowed him to become king of Egypt. That it was not random and coincidental that this Pharaoh exist, had become the person he is, became a king of Egypt who was cruel to the Israelites. God did not wait for this kind of person to come along who is perfect for Him to use for His purpose.

Again, you are adding your deterministic philosophy to scripture. God did not cause pharaoh to be who he was. You can have any theological bent from open theism to determinism and still affirm that God raised up pharaoh. Why choose pagan fatalism?

 

[Renniks]

Sorry, but that does not really answer the question.

Besides, why do you say that this world is a land of trial? Does the Bible teach that?

Tong
R0175

Certainly. The Word confirms that we have these choices for the reason of strengthening us. Of course, we can also allow them to weaken us.
James 1:12
Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Mark 4:17
And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.

See the contrast?
Life here isn't the destination, but the test.

 

[Tong2020]

Your fatalism is showing. You can't affirm God causing all of a man's actions and affirm free will at the same time. Well, you can, but not logically. You are embracing a contradiction, if that's what you are trying to say.

No fatalism there sir. Only the truth taught in scriptures, even in creation. I am not really embracing a contradiction, but the things of the Spirit of God. Like that water turns to wine is not really the contradiction that I embraced, but it is the miracle of God that I embraced and believe.

I'd say "free will" was given by God to man for him to use for the times of choosing that also God had given to the man. And He did that according to His will, purpose, pleasure, and for His glory.

Tong
R0176

 

[Tong2020]

No, I was being specific to the question. God was showing the Egyptians who the true God was, since they worshiped false gods. Firming Pharaoh's resolve helped him accomplish that purpose.

Firming Pharaoh's resolve helped Him? I am beginning to suspect that you slowly come to look at God as one needing help. It seems that the more you try to defend your position, the more you seem to diminish God.

Tong
R0177

 

[Renniks]

No fatalism there sir. Only the truth taught in scriptures, even in creation. I am not really embracing a contradiction, but the things of the Spirit of God. Like that water turns to wine is not really the contradiction that I embraced, but it is the miracle of God that I embraced and believe.

I'd say "free will" was given by God to man for him to use for the times that also God had given to the man. And He did that according to His will, purpose, pleasure, and for His glory.

Tong
R0176

Perhaps you could be clear. Does God cause all of man's actions? Does God meticulously control each human being? You seem very vague in your statements.

 

[Renniks]

Firming Pharaoh's resolve helped Him? I am beginning to suspect that you slowly come to look at God as one needing help. It seems that the more you try to defend your position, the more you seem to diminish God.

Tong
R0177

Why would you oppose the notion that firming Pharaoh's resolve helped God to do what he planned? How does that diminish God?

 

[Stumpmaster]

I'd say "free will" was given by God to man for him to use for the times that also God had given to the man. And He did that according to His will, purpose, pleasure, and for His glory.

Yes, I hope you don't mind me entering into the conversation. Indeed freewill is God-given and reduced to its simplest definition it is the ability to obey or disobey.

 

[Tong2020]

Hi Tong. Yes Sir. This world is full of trials and tribulations according to the Bible and my own experience. Have you read Hebrews 11 lately? Also these verses among numerous others...

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me you might have peace. In the world you shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Act 14:21-22 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch, (22) Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Rom 8:18-23 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (19) For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. (20) For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; (21) because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (22) For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. (23) Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Jas 1:2-3 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, (3) knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.

1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

Greetings Stumpmaster!

Yes, I think no one can deny that this world is full of the things you said are trials and tribulations. But that is not the point nor the issue I brought up.

My question was coming from the statement of Renniks which I quote:

"Because this world is a land of trial, it's not yet heaven. God created this trial in fairness, not slanting the odds deliberately in his favor. "

Embodied in my question are, where in the Bible does it teach: 1) that the world, as implied in the statement, was a place created by God whereby the trial Renniks refer to that God created, were to take place; 2) that God created "this trial".

Why man experience all such hardships is not that the world is a land of trial, but that Adam had sinned, so that sin entered the world, and death through sin, and death reigned in the world. So what hardship that we all now experience and see in this world, is the reign of sin and death. There was nothing of any of that before the fall of Adam.

Tong
R0178

 

[Renniks]

There was nothing of any of that before the fall of Adam.

Of course there was. The tree in the garden was the first test.

 

[Tong2020]

Again, you are adding your deterministic philosophy to scripture. God did not cause pharaoh to be who he was. You can have any theological bent from open theism to determinism and still affirm that God raised up pharaoh. Why choose pagan fatalism?

Not so sir. I choose scriptures. I choose what God says in His scriptures.

Look at the case of Moses for example. His parents knew not that Moses is a chosen of God, but they did what they did by their own will and choice. Do you think that Moses survived the river by chance? Do you think that the rest that happened to him was all by chance? Or would you think that God had his hand on that, without making anyone a robot?

Do you want more of scriptures that speaks of the sovereignty of God?

Here's another for you to consider. The matter between Isaac and Ismael.

Galatians 4:30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”

There's more if needed. And by the way, that's scriptures speaking, not me.

Tong
R0179

 

[Tong2020]

Certainly. The Word confirms that we have these choices for the reason of strengthening us. Of course, we can also allow them to weaken us.
James 1:12
Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Mark 4:17
And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.

See the contrast?
Life here isn't the destination, but the test.

See my post #674

Saved Or Predestined ???

Tong
R0180

 

[Stumpmaster]

Greetings Stumpmaster!

Yes, I think no one can deny that this world is full of the things you said are trials and tribulations. But that is not the point nor the issue I brought up.

My question was coming from the statement of Renniks which I quote:

"Because this world is a land of trial, it's not yet heaven. God created this trial in fairness, not slanting the odds deliberately in his favor. "

Embodied in my question are, where in the Bible does it teach: 1) that the world, as implied in the statement, was a place created by God whereby the trial Renniks refer to that God created, were to take place; 2) that God created "this trial".

Why man experience all such hardships is not that the world is a land of trial, but that Adam had sinned, so that sin entered the world, and death through sin, and death reigned in the world. So what hardship that we all now experience and see in this world, is the reign of sin and death. There was nothing of any of that before the fall of Adam.

Tong
R0178

Yes, the Divine Plan begins and ends with Complete Perfection, but allows for the inevitability of evil opposition to it for which the Perfect Remedy is provided in conjunction with Divine Judgment.

Funny thing, Tong. I woke up this morning and a thought entered my mind to the effect that no-one is born physically of their own volition or choice. In other words our being in existence is completely decided without our determining whether or not it will be so. This truth is sometimes expressed negatively with the words, "Well, I didn't ask to be born."

I like the process by which, once born, we find out what we are in, and why it is the way it is.

The prohibition on eating fruit from the Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good and Evil was a fair test in that it set a perfect standard for the relationship between God and man, one which is based on trust between us. It was a fair test because God warned of the consequences of breaching that trust.

 

[Tong2020]

Perhaps you could be clear. Does God cause all of man's actions? Does God meticulously control each human being? You seem very vague in your statements.

God does not cause man's actions. Man's actions are his (man's) doing. But the actions that man do, are only those that can be chosen to be done by him within that which God had caused to be a reality to the man.

Renniks: Does God meticulously control each human being? You seem very vague in your statements.

I don't know if things such as concerning your hair (Mt. 10:30) or concerning the sparrows falling or not (Mt.10:29), you'll consider as God being meticulous or not.

Tong
R0181

 

[Tong2020]

Yes, I hope you don't mind me entering into the conversation. Indeed freewill is God-given and reduced to its simplest definition it is the ability to obey or disobey.

No problem jumping in Stumpmaster.

Not all I think have the same take of what "free will".

Tong
R0182