Saved Or Predestined ???

[Tong2020]

You create a false dichotomy. God chooses all, but not irresistibly. Not all chose him in return, so most are not saved.

Is it too much to ask if I request that you give a direct answer to my questions there? Hope that would not be too difficult for you do, unless you have good reasons not to. Here, I'll post them again for easy reference.

Did God choose you for salvation so that you are among the chosen people of God, or did you choose God to be among the chosen people of God?

Did God chose you first or did you chose God first?

Tong
R0296

 

[Renniks]

That is obviously a different context sir. You cannot use scriptures as if to refute another scriptures sir. Again another misuse of scriptures. My statements there sir are in the context of the passage we are taking about, that is, in Romans 9, where God is the Potter and man is the vessel that the Potter makes out of the clay.

Tong
R0295

No, you just don't like the implications that people are responsible for what kind of vessels they are. Even though that's exactly what Romans 9 says too. Israel were vessels of wrath, why? Jeremiah tells us why. Because of thier disobedience.

 

[Renniks]

Is it too much to ask if I request that you give a direct answer to my questions there? Hope that would not be too difficult for you do, unless you have good reasons not to. Here, I'll post them again for easy reference.

Did God choose you for salvation so that you are among the chosen people of God, or did you choose God to be among the chosen people of God?

Did God chose you first or did you chose God first?

Tong
R0296

Yes to the first. It's both.

The second one I already answered.

 

[Tong2020]

I never said God found himself without a choice, you just made that up. I said Noah was pretty much the only choice in his generation, according to scripture. And that's why God chose him. God could have chosen to wipe out everyone and start over if there were no righteous people.

So, okay, Noah was pretty much the only choice for God. Now, you said "that's why God chose him". You are saying then in other words, that the reason why God chose Noah is because Noah was pretty much the only choice for God, right? Was that what scriptures say or was that your own conclusion? You said "God could have chosen to wipe out everyone and start over if there were no righteous people." Is that what scriptures says or is that your own conclusion?

You had not answered my question:

May I asked, would you say if ever God did not chose Noah to give His grace and instead destroyed all mankind, would God be unrighteous by not saving Noah?

Tong
R0297

 

[Renniks]

So, okay, Noah was pretty much the only choice for God. Now, you said "that's why God chose him". You are saying then in other words, that the reason why God chose Noah is because Noah was pretty much the only choice for God, right? Was that what scriptures say or was that your own conclusion? You said "God could have chosen to wipe out everyone and start over if there were no righteous people." Is that what scriptures says or is that your own conclusion?

You had not answered my question:

May I asked, would you say if ever God did not chose Noah to give His grace and instead destroyed all mankind, would God be unrighteous by not saving Noah?

Tong
R0297

Scripture says he was the only choice:" This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God."

If there were others who were like Noah, would God have not allowed them on the ark?
Remember God's conversation with Abraham about Sodom?

"Far be it from you to do such a thing--to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

Was Abraham wrong about what kind of God he is?

 

[Tong2020]

For I have known him, to the end that he may command his children and his household after him, that they may keep the way of Jehovah, to do righteousness and justice; to the end that Jehovah may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. Genesis 18:19


Genesis 17:9
God also said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep My covenant, you and your descendants for the generations to come.

Did they? No, they did not. They failed to keep the covenant. This is why we are told in Romans 9 that God has the right to work through them regardless. Because this was God keeping his promise to Abraham, in whatever way he needed to.

"Some time later God tested Abraham."Genesis 22

15 The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, “I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed,[c] because you have obeyed me.”

God says he kept his promise because Abraham passed the test of faith. If Abraham had not passed, would God have chosen someone else? God isn't locked into one course of action. He can change his mind as he wishes.

You did not answer my questions. Hope you'll answer them.

Would Abraham had faith if God had not chosen him and spoke His words to him?

If God did not account righteousness to his faith, would Abraham not be saved?

By the way, Gen. 18:9 clearly speaks the purpose why God chose Abraham, which is undeniably for salvation, not only of himself but of many from all the families of the earth.

19 For I have known him, to the end that he may command his children and his household after him, that they may keep the way of Jehovah, to do righteousness and justice; to the end that Jehovah may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. (ASV)

19 For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the Lord, to do righteousness and justice, that the Lord may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him.” (NKJV)

19 For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him.”” (ESV)

Concerning your last paragraph, God makes no mistake. That was all in God's perfect plan. God testing Abraham was not really for the omniscient God to know, but for Abraham's sake, as well as Isaac's sake. And that was written there in scriptures for us, as Paul had said of scriptures "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

Tong
R0298

 

[Tong2020]

Lol, talk about a non-answer! They were sons of the devil. Why? Because they failed to have true faith in God, even though they had the Torah. We are all sons of the devil unless we are seeking after God in truth, not just in appearance. This doesn't answer the question. You say you don't think they could be saved, and yet Jesus was teaching them about himself to that very end.

Read the scriptures and see if it says what you say.

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

You said "You say you don't think they could be saved, and yet Jesus was teaching them about himself to that very end." I told you the reason why I am inclined to take the opinion that they can't, and even gave you the reason why I do, with the relevant scriptures.
Regarding the last part of your statement there, do you think that Jesus don't know that they will not believe even before he started teaching? Of course he did. He's just doing what His Father commanded of Him to do.

Tong
R0299

 

[Tong2020]

Romans 10:17
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

How does that explains your statement? Please explain that you may be clearly understood by me and those who read your posts.

Tong
R0300

 

[Tong2020]

In other words, you have no response.

That is my response. Do your post require a certain kind of response? Was there a question for me to answer there? I see none.

Tong
R0301

 

[Renniks]

Concerning your last paragraph, God makes no mistake. That was all in God's perfect plan

Was it God's plan for Israel to disobey? Again, read the Jeremiah passage about the Potter and clay. God says he makes his plans according to what men do.
"and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned."
Jeremiah 18:8

 

[Renniks]

But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?

Thanks for the confirmation. He wasn't saying they could not choose to believe and at the same time asking why they didn't. Now you are making Jesus out to be schizophrenic.

 

[Renniks]

How does that explains your statement? Please explain that you may be clearly understood by me and those who read your posts.

Tong
R0300

What is hard to understand about the verse? There's no magic zap by God causing some chosen few to believe.
If we hear the word and respond with faith we will be saved.

When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come” (John 16:13).

John 16:8 “And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment.”

There's no reason for anyone who is seeking to miss the truth today. The gospel is easily accessible.

 

[Renniks]

That is my response. Do your post require a certain kind of response? Was there a question for me to answer there? I see none.

Tong
R0301

You said I was far out without any explanation. Kinda pointless comment, don't you think?

 

[Tong2020]

Per verse 7, God owns the vineyard, which is Israel. Justice and righteousness are good grapes while oppression and a cry for help are wild grapes. (or thorns)

The point is that God did all he could do that they would be good fruit. Whether you want to say the plants are people or the nation as a whole seems irrelevant. I think you miss the point. God wasn't the cause of thier hard hearts. The question was whether God's will is always done. Not according to God himself as this verse tells us.

How did I miss the point? I hit the bull's eye. You said regarding Isaiah 5:4, and I quote:

The grapes were his people. It's obvious. They were bad because of their own choices. He did all he could for them.

I refuted that wrong interpretation by just quoting Isaiah 5:7

Isaiah 5:7 For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel,
And the men of Judah are His pleasant plant.
He looked for justice, but behold, oppression;
For righteousness, but behold, a cry for help.

That's clear as day. So, what now. A misuse of scriptures and a false interpretation exposed. That's the point. I hope you did not miss that.

Now, let me repeat what I've been saying in my other posts. We must look at the substance and reality which are here and now, rather than the shadow, which were there and then. Regarding Israel therefore, we must see Israel in reality and not the Israel in the shadow it was. Paul told us who the Israel of God are in the scriptures that he was inspired to write. Not doing that results to wrong interpretations such as this.

Tong
R0302

 

[Tong2020]

No, you just don't like the implications that people are responsible for what kind of vessels they are. Even though that's exactly what Romans 9 says too. Israel were vessels of wrath, why? Jeremiah tells us why. Because of thier disobedience.

Not in any way like that sir. You really need to reconsider your interpretation on that sir.

Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

The vessels spoken here, of wrath prepared for destruction, and of mercy prepared for glory, are in the context of damnation and salvation. So, it speaks of the saved and unsaved, Jews and Gentiles alike.

2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

Here, the vessels spoken here, are not in the contexts of damnation and salvation, but of honor and dishonor. If you'll notice, the vessels are not all of one material such as that in Romans 9, but one is of gold, another is of silver, another is of wood, and still another is of clay. That alone tells us that there is no parallel in the two passages. Now these vessels here does not represent the saved and the unsaved, unlike in Romans 9. Here, it speaks of only the saved, the Christian. In fact it speaks of workers of the Lord, such as is Timothy.

Tong
R0303

 

[Renniks]

The vessels spoken here, of wrath prepared for destruction, and of mercy prepared for glory, are in the context of damnation and salvation. So, it speaks of the saved and unsaved, Jews and Gentiles alike.

Vessels of wrath=disobedient Jews. Why would he have to endure with great patience if he had just created them to be damned? Answer: He didn't. The Vessels of mercy=repentant gentiles and repentant Jews.

 

[Tong2020]

Yes to the first. It's both.

The second one I already answered.

Thank you for your answers.

So, if I got that right, you affirm that God have chosen to save you, so that you are among the chosen people of God. And of course, you chose Him, to believe Him, but affirming that, it is because He chose you first. And that is like saying that you love Him, but affirming that, it is because He loved you first, right?

Now, if you will argue that, even while God chose you, your choosing Him is still a choice you should make and is not automatic to be a positive response. I won't argue against that. But would you agree that having been chosen by God and so is among Gods elect, that God will surely convict, convince, and convert you, and that He is able to do that, without forcing you or tampering with your freedom to choose according to your will?

Tong
R0304

 

[Renniks]

Now, let me repeat what I've been saying in my other posts. We must look at the substance and reality which are here and now, rather than the shadow, which were there and then. Regarding Israel therefore, we must see Israel in reality and not the Israel in the shadow it was. Paul told us who the Israel of God are in the scriptures that he was inspired to write. Not doing that results to wrong interpretations such as this.

I fail to see what this has to do with the topic.
I think you still miss the point. Again, did God will Israel's rebellion? Straight answer, please.

 

[Renniks]

Now, if you will argue that, even while God chose you, your choosing Him is still a choice you should make and is not automatic to be a positive response. I won't argue against that. But would you agree that having been chosen by God and so is among Gods elect, that God will surely convict, convince, and convert you, and that He is able to do that, without forcing you or tampering with your freedom to choose according to your will?

You are misinterpreting

Now, if you will argue that, even while God chose you, your choosing Him is still a choice you should make and is not automatic to be a positive response. I won't argue against that. But would you agree that having been chosen by God and so is among Gods elect, that God will surely convict, convince, and convert you, and that He is able to do that, without forcing you or tampering with your freedom to choose according to your will?

You are misinterpreting what I said, as I expected. I'm not specifically chosen any more than any human is. I already explained prevenient grace to avoid your coming to this conclusion. God initiates contact, yes, but the only advantage I had was being born in a Christian family, so I didn't have to look far to find truth. Jesus said those who seek him find him. That's universal.

 

[Tong2020]

Scripture says he was the only choice:" This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God."

If there were others who were like Noah, would God have not allowed them on the ark?
Remember God's conversation with Abraham about Sodom?

"Far be it from you to do such a thing--to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

Was Abraham wrong about what kind of God he is?

Scriptures does not say that he was the only choice sir. You made that up. You see, even Noah is a sinner and needs God's salvation, more so the other 7 of his family. Yes I remember God's conversation with Abraham about Sodom. But remember God is omniscient. It is not as though He really need to go down to Sodom and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Him, that He may know. That is all part of God's plan. Obviously, it has to do with Abraham, His purpose and of course His promise to him.

You asked "If there were others who were like Noah, would God have not allowed them on the ark?" My answer is I think He would. How about you, why do you not answer my question up to now?

May I asked, would you say if ever God did not chose Noah to give His grace and instead destroyed all mankind, would God be unrighteous by not saving Noah?

Tong
R0305