The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[RogerDC]

Even worse is the person who thinks a statue listens to their prayers!

Only superstitious pagans believe a statue listens to their prayers.

 

[prism]

As for answering your irrelevant question, as far as I know, the Catholic Church does not teach that "God doesn't know all things"

Then why do you teach it?

 

[RogerDC]

Yes, it is possible for us to grieve the holy Spirit of God, whereby we are sealed unto the day of redemption: but that does not result in a loss of salvation. For we are 'sealed unto the day', and nothing can take that away (Romans 8:35 & 39) ...

You say (quote), 'God has never claimed that we had an unconditional guaranteed salvation', but, with respect, that is a statement that it is incumbent upon you to prove; not for me to disprove.

At what point is a believer sealed for eternity by the Holy Spirit? When he first believes? Ten years after he first believed? When?

 

[RogerDC]

I am not assuming anything

three places in scripture it is said we are sealed UNTIL the day of redemption.

I take God at his word when he says it once, But when he says it three times, Take heed and listen.

When is a believer sealed by the Holy Spirit? As soon as he first believes?

 

[RogerDC]

Then why do you teach it?

I don't recall teaching that God doesn't know everything. However, I do recall asking you why God tests our faith, if He knows everything. Please note that asking a question is not a statement of belief.

So the question remains: If God knows us completely, why does He test our faith and our hearts? This is a reasonable and logical question to ask. The fact that you cannot answer this question doesn't render it invalid or nonsensical.

 

[complete]

At what point is a believer sealed for eternity by the Holy Spirit? When he first believes? Ten years after he first believed? When?

In whom (Christ) ye also trusted,
.. after that ye heard the word of truth,
.... the gospel of your salvation:
in whom (Christ) after that ye believed,
.. ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
.... Which is the earnest of our inheritance
...... until the redemption of the purchased possession,
........ unto the praise of His glory.
(Ephesians 1:13-14)

Hello @RogerDC,

You ask, (quote):- 'At what point is a believer sealed for eternity by the Holy Spirit?'

I believe that the verses above give us the answer to this question. For when we hear and believe the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. That seal is the promissory note guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession at resurrection. Unto the praise of His glory!!

That sealing is not accompanied by any outward manifestation necessarily, but we can be sure that it has taken place, because we are told so here in God's Word. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. We trust God to keep His word, made to us, in Christ Jesus our risen and glorified, Saviour, Lord and Head.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

'For ye see your calling, brethren,
.. how that not many wise men after the flesh,
.... not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise;
.. and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
.... And base things of the world,
...... and things which are despised,
........ hath God chosen,
.......... yea, and things which are not,
............ to bring to nought things that are:
That no flesh should glory in His presence.
But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus,
Who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.'
(1 Corinthians 1:26-31)

Praise His Holy Name!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Amen! Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Praise the Lord! :)

I see no conditions written here in which the seal can be broken, I see a definitive WERE SEALED a completed action.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What happens to believers who are not sealed or are not aware of the Holy Spirit?

There are no such instances of this. a true believer is sealed the moment of faith. So it is a false idea to begin with, which makes the question nonsensibe

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I was working from post #3990

and the fact that Roger DC identifies as 'Catholic' in his sidebar. It was only a question.

wow..

It would make sense for some though, As it seams many people love to humanize God. where he has not only human emotions, but human flaws. Its sad. Thanks Brother for showing me this.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

At what point is a believer sealed for eternity by the Holy Spirit? When he first believes? Ten years after he first believed? When?

Eph 1: 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I don't recall teaching that God doesn't know everything. However, I do recall asking you why God tests our faith, if He knows everything. Please note that asking a question is not a statement of belief.

So the question remains: If God knows us completely, why does He test our faith and our hearts? This is a reasonable and logical question to ask. The fact that you cannot answer this question doesn't render it invalid or nonsensical.

The same reason our employer tests us, The schools test us

For our benefit. It shows us where we are weak and where we need to improve

If God did not test our faith. we would never grow, we would remain stagnant. and most likely weak.

But do not just take my word for it, here is what God says in his word

James 1:2-4 [Full Chapter]
My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

 

[FollowHim]

There are no such instances of this. a true believer is sealed the moment of faith. So it is a false idea to begin with, which makes the question nonsensibe

The problem with this concept, people start looking for the sealing in the Holy Spirit as a sign that they are authentic.
So fellowships use speaking in tongues as the sign.

So you get the absurd situation when a solid brother, get knocked sideways, loses their conviction and walks away. I had a friend who now gets annoyed at being called a christian. He was once.

Others have trauma and as Jesus describes the worries of life smother the word of God and they are unfruitful.

2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
John 15:2

6 Some fell on rock, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture.
7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up with it and choked the plants.
8 Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown
Luke 8:6-8

The example of the fig tree with no fruit

13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs.
14 Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it.
Mark 11:13-14

Having no fruit is death in Christ. He is prepared to wait 3 years, but no more.
Now how can a branch be full of the Holy Spirit be cut off, or a fig tree with the potential to bear fruit, bear none and be destroyed?

Because the seal is a promise, a guarantee while present of Gods blessing and His intention. It should be a warning to those who believe God does not care how we live or what we do in Him.

So my question is very valid, because Jesus implies nothing is certain unless we follow and obey. God bless you

7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.
8 This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9 "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.
10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love."
John 15:7-10

Letting Gods word remain in us, His love working through our lives, we will bear much fruit, Gods word springing to life to share and spread to others, Amen.

 

[prism]

I don't recall teaching that God doesn't know everything. However, I do recall asking you why God tests our faith, if He knows everything. Please note that asking a question is not a statement of belief.

So the question remains: If God knows us completely, why does He test our faith and our hearts? This is a reasonable and logical question to ask. The fact that you cannot answer this question doesn't render it invalid or nonsensical.

This is a colossal waste of time. Your own post above is arguing for the position that God doesn’t know everything just from the fact you are challenging me for proof.
In post #3990 you stated,
“It is not me that says it - scripture that says God didn’t know Abraham completely until he tested him - after God tested Abraham, God said “NOW I know that you fear God”. In other works, God knew something after the test that He didn’t know before the test.”

...This is more proof you have a twisted interpretation of Scripture, that was an unbelievable remark of yours and is the reason I asked that ‘irrelevant’ question “Does the Catholic Church teach that officially?”.
I gave you a litany of Scriptures showing that God knows all things and now my only conclusion is that I am wasting my time here seeing we have two different gods. My God knows all things and apparently your god doesn’t.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I see no conditions written here in which the seal can be broken, I see a definitive WERE SEALED a completed action.

Nonsense.
The Bible gives us MANY instances of how this seal can be broken - by US.

Once again - the following warnings are written to converted, born-again believers who are SEALED in the Holy Spirit:

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory . . .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God “take away” somebody’s “share” of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

What happens to believers who are not sealed or are not aware of the Holy Spirit?

Are there believers who arent aware they've received the Holy Spirit...? I mean, I've talked to some people who say it wasn't a dramatic, all-at-once thing with them but was rather a slower growing awareness of the Spirit in them, guiding them, but I have yet to meet anyone who says they have no awareness at all of Gods Spirit in them and guiding them.

 

[RogerDC]

The truth is even your own history shows that they BURNED every book which they considered heretical.

Big deal - books that preach lies and heresy deserve to be burnt.

people who RULE write history.

You claim that the Catholic Church erased true history and presents a false history. What is your evidence for this claim? Cite one academic paper that supports your claim. Name one reputable historian who agrees with your fairy tale.

 

[RogerDC]

. And the people they claimed to be heretics where jailed. Outcast or killed.

Which punishment is more just - being stoned to death for collecting firewood on the Sabbath, or being put to death for heresy (which is opposing the body of Christ)?

 

[RogerDC]

taken from the catholic encyclopedia

When Constantine had taken upon himself the office of lay bishop, episcopus externus, and put the secular arm at the service of the Church, the laws against heretics became more and more rigorous. Under the purely ecclesiastical discipline no temporal punishment could be inflicted on the obstinate heretic, except the damage which might arise to his personal dignity through being deprived of all intercourse with his former brethren. But under the Christian emperors rigorous measures were enforced against the goods and persons of heretics. From the time of Constantine to Theodosius and Valentinian III (313-424) various penal laws were enacted by the Christian emperors against heretics as being guilty of crime against the State. "In both the Theodosian and Justinian codes they were styled infamous persons; all intercourse was forbidden to be held with them; they were deprived of all offices of profit and dignity in the civil administration, while all burdensome offices, both of the camp and of the curia, were imposed upon them; they were disqualified from disposing of their own estates by will, or of accepting estates bequeathed to them by others; they were denied the right of giving or receiving donations, of contracting, buying, and selling; pecuniary fines were imposed upon them; they were often proscribed and banished, and in many cases scourged before being sent into exile. In some particularly aggravated cases sentence of death was pronounced upon heretics, though seldom executed in the time of the Christian emperors of Rome. Theodosius is said to be the first who pronounced heresy a capital crime; this law was passed in 382 against the Encratites, the Saccophori, the Hydroparastatae, and the Manichæans. Heretical teachers were forbidden to propagate their doctrines publicly or privately; to hold public disputations; to ordain bishops, presbyters, or any other clergy; to hold religious meetings; to build conventicles or to avail themselves of money bequeathed to them for that purpose. Slaves were allowed to inform against their heretical masters and to purchase their freedom by coming over to the Church. The children of heretical parents were denied their patrimony and inheritance unless they returned to the Catholic Church. The books of heretics were ordered to be burned." ( Vide "Codex Theodosianus", lib. XVI, tit. 5, "De Haereticis".)

So when someone tells you that there is no proof or evidence of any teaching other than the catholic church teachings, Their own encyclopedia tells you why.

when you DESTROY all evidence. and punish all people who even hold to these beliefs, there will never be any evidence.

How does this article prove your claim that the Catholic Church falsified history?

 

[RogerDC]

This is certainly a faith statement in an organisation. Jesus did not say we listen to the body and follow the body but listen to Jesus and follow Him.

By this definition you are not following or listening to Jesus.

As a disciple of the false doctrine of Sola Scriptura, you have little or no understanding of what the Church is. For starters, it is impossible to separate Christ from His body, the Church - therefore, to be in (follow) Christ’s Church is to be in (follow) Christ, because the Church is the “fullness” of Christ (Eph 1:22-23). When Saul of Tarsus was persecuting members of the Church, Jesus confronted him on the road to Damascus, saying, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute ME?” (Acts 9:4).

Also note that Paul, an apostle, was compelled by the Holy Spirit to go to Jerusalem to have the doctrines he was preaching approved by the Church leaders (Gal 2:1-2).
Paul also sought out the Church leaders to settle a doctrinal dispute (Acts 15:2-3).
When Paul visited believers in the cities of Derbe and Lystra, he “delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem” (Acts 16:1-4). In other words, Paul’s earthly “boss” was the Church. But according to you, this means Paul was “not following or listening to Jesus”.

Read Eph 4:4-16. How does the writer (Paul) say a believer attains this - “equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of THE FULLNESS OF CHRIST”? The answer is, thru the efforts of “apostles, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers” (v.4) - the Church, in other words. But according to you, following and being taught by the Church to attain "the fullness of Christ" amounts to “not following or listening to Jesus”.

Scripture clearly contradicts you and your false notion that there is no “middle man” between you and God.

In Vatican 2 accepting spiritual authority from other faiths was agreed to.

This is very vague, not to mention sounding suspiciously like nonsense. What are you referring to, exactly?

Which Catholic doctrine says the CC is “accepting spiritual authority from other faiths”?

It is hard not to conclude the church has gone astray.

On the contrary, it’s impossible to conclude that the Catholic Church “has gone astray” - Jesus promised that the “gates of Hell will not prevail against” His Church, which means it is not possible for the CC to become corrupt and teach doctrinal errors (or in some other way be destroyed).