You find it difficult to understand what I am saying, perhaps because you only think and look at things in your time when you must be thinking and looking at things from the beginning of time. Think and consider all of the men and women, young and old, the peoples in all the earth, who now are already dead, who lived in a civilization different from yours today. In other words, you must be reading scriptures with this in mind and in this context.Again, what are you trying to say? If they were born unable to respond to God, he would have nothing to give up on, because he never tried to reach them. Of course, they are in a worse situation if they became unredeemable, but they put themselves in that situation.
Actually, God hardening already hardened people is a contradiction for those who think Romans teaches God just chooses some and passes by the others. If they were just destined to be passed by, there would be no need of God working in them in any way. If they were born to be damned, ( non elect) what need is there to further harden them?
You asked "what are you trying to say?" That salvation is God's choice, not man's. So don't look for the choice that is not for man. And as I pointed out, the choice for man when he is brought into the world, is the choice between good and evil, between life and death. Consider now these scriptures that speaks of man in general:
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
No man is with excused. All are guilty of sin. And what did God do? God gave them up to uncleanness (Rom.1:24), God gave them up to vile passions (Rom. 1:26). Now, realize this, what God had done as written in Romans 1:28, God gave them over to a debased or depraved mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful.
So, we can infer from that, that is the general situation of mankind. All mankind are condemned to death. God, in His wrath in the days of Noah, killed all of mankind, and had chosen to spare a remnant out of Noah and 7 of his family. Now go ahead and ask yourself these questions at this point, were there people saved from sin and hell during the days from Adam to the flood? How were they saved? From the time after the flood in the days of Noah, except that the wickedness that was there before the flood was no more, had the situation of man changed, or had man changed? Evidently not. You can read about the men and their works from Noah to Abraham. Now, in Genesis 12:1-3, what do you read there? It is about what God will do, is it not? Can you tell us what you understand there that God had revealed He will do?
You said "If they were born unable to respond to God, he would have nothing to give up on, because he never tried to reach them." Who is saying that man is born unable to respond to God? So your argument there is not against me, but perhaps for somebody else. Though, in a sense there is some truth in that, for being born an infant, he sure can't respond to God. But here's my take on that. Man is by nature, one who have knowledge of good and evil, which I understand is the reason why man will surely die. What I am saying here goes back to scriptures in Genesis.
You said "Of course, they are in a worse situation if they became unredeemable, but they put themselves in that situation." I don't believe there is such thing as unredeemable. When God give them up to uncleanness, to vile passions, to a debased or depraved mind, it is not that they become unredeemable, but were left alone by God to their will. Anytime God wills to saved any of them, will they not be saved?
You said "If they were born to be damned, ( non elect) what need is there to further harden them?" This argument is really not for me, for I don't say that they were born to be damned.
Tong
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