Saved Or Predestined ???

[Tong2020]

In Adam all die means all men sin and also die physically. In Christ all are made alive means all are given atonement for their sins, convicted of thier sin and offered eternal life. Otherwise, you would have to be a universalist to believe it means all are saved.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

A simple examination of the context shows that you gave a forced meaning, clear misuse of scriptures.

By man came death, physical death in view, for the context so speak of physical resurrection. And we know that such came because of Adam's sin. All die physically because of Adam's fall ~ the cause of death is Adam. Therefore, Adam did not die for himself alone, but for all mankind, that is what is meant by "For as in Adam all die" in the passage. Now we know that death is condemnation. And so, since all mankind dies, are we then not condemned in that sense together with Adam? The obvious answer is yes. That's is why I objected in what you said in your post #978 "No we all are condemned for our sin, not for Adams and I already said that Adams fall was the start of everyone sinning. That's not the same as being condemned for someone else's sin."

That was what I wanted to show you in that passage and the point I was trying to make which refutes that part of your statement there in post #978 concerning Adam's fall. So, I will not here go on to discuss "in Christ all shall be made alive", unless you would like me to do so. And of course, on the part which says that we are condemned for our sin, I have no objection to that.

Tong
R0350

 

[Tong2020]

Why are you limiting God? Does he only care for certain people groups? When we sung "God loves all the children of the world" where we actually lying?
Acts17:27
27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

Context refers to all nations of the world.

"From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us."

Paul is preaching to non-jewish people here. And he's preaching about the God who calls on all to seek him.

I am not limiting God at all sir, unlike you, which regarding His sovereignty over creation including mankind, you limit in such a way that it becomes sort of under the power of man's so-called "free will", where "free will" became sort of a god to man, making man powerful, so powerful that he can limit the supposedly ultimate and unlimited sovereignty and sovereign power of God over mankind.

Considering all that you said there, it does not take away the fact that only those who believes in the God that Jesus refers to, could only be the one who can call to Him and ask. And with that, Jesus was not talking about "everyone" as referring to all mankind. Now, if I were to consider that Jesus was referring to all mankind, the problem is, even while Jesus says that if they seek they will find, the fact is, they don't seek or if they do seek, their worship of idols and false gods tells us whom it is they seek. And evidently it is not the God whom Jesus was telling them about that they seek. It is evident throughout history and since the fall of Adam, who and what man is, even them whom God had chosen among mankind (physical Israel), to whom He even revealed Himself in a very special and convincing way that He is God and there is none other, and even made covenant with them, who nonetheless at the end of the day, still exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator. That is mankind my friend. So, we should stop thinking of man as somebody who is more than that, as though there is good that dwells in him by nature, that is, in his flesh, for there is none.

Tong
R0351

 

[Tong2020]

It starts with God in the sense that God came up with the plan of salvation, and convicts us first... but God isn't dragging anyone in by thier hair. We have to choose to respond.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:12

I disagree sir. As I pointed out, it is man who started it all, that is, when Adam sinned. Man first sinned. And sinning, he became a slave of sin and death reigned over him. Now I suppose you know what a slave is, at least what it is in the context of the Bible. He isn't a freeman, and could only do what his master commands him to do. If another should command him to do something, even while he is willing to do it, he just can't as he is held captive by his master. So, for him to be able, he must first be set free from his slavery.

With regards the scriptures you quoted from John 1:12, who do you say are the many who received him, them who believed on His name? Who are they? Does not the next verse (v.13) tells us who they are, that is, and I quote "who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Tong
R0352

 

[Tong2020]

Of course, I believe God determined beforehand that Jesus would die for the sins of the world. It doesn't say he determined that they would do it.

Well, I've already addressed that a number of times now, so I won't repeat myself anymore. If Jesus' death was for you, all that God predetermined will do there, then so be it with you. As for me, more than that, as the scriptures says, "Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done". I cannot but believe what scriptures says there. I believe that God's hand is in all of these, causing the things that leads to the gathering of Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, to do His purpose. And all that without forcing anybody nor choosing for anybody, or making any one be a robot or puppet. It is no different when He used Assyria to punish Israel, where He caused the things that led Assyria doing exactly unto the then idolatrous Israel, what God intended, that is, to tread them down like the mire of the streets, even while Assyria does not mean to do so, nor does his heart think to do like so.

"So, it's not about God planning anyone's evil actions. It's the opposite. It's God bringing good even from men's evil plans.
It fits perfectly with what I've been saying all along... God foresees men's actions and makes his plans accordingly.

And I did not say it's about that. And no sir, it does not fit, more so perfectly fit as you claim, with what you are saying. God did not look in the future from the beginning, and found a point where it is the perfect time for the crucifixion event to happen. If that was the case, then God was afterall relying and depending upon the outcome of future random events, where He, each and every time, just jumps in and change the course of the random future. It is not like that sir. God is not man, and does not think like man and does not plan like man. We cannot even imagine even for a nanosecond, how it is to be in God's place when He made His perfect plan. For how does one plans when He is omniscient, perfectly wise, omnipresent, holy, loving, sovereign, just, good, righteous, immutable, omnipotent, eternal, etc. etc.? What we know is that when God planned fro. eternity past, when there was no creation yet, all of these came into play when God planned. So to say in limitation that God plans, as though only according to His omniscience (foreknowledge), and plans after and depending on the actions men is just outright wrong and false.

Tong
R0353

 

[Tong2020]

When God drowned all but 8 on Earth did He give them opportunity for salvation?

I think God did. But it must be realized, this is salvation from the coming wrath, that is, the flood, not salvation from sin and hell.

Tong
R0354

 

[Tong2020]

Why wouldn't I believe that? But if you are taking the calvinist view on Assyria being used by God, that's another thing. They would say God didn't allow the free will actions, (both of Israelites and the Assyrians) but ordained them himself so that they had to happen.
Just another example of God using men's sinful actions to bring it back good in the long run. But how much better it would have been if there was another option, such as if his people had not required punishment.

It's good that you believe that God at some time, used a nation and sent them to punish Israel; and that this nation did not consciously serve God; and that this nation was like a rod in God's hand; and that when God finished using this nation as His rod to punish Israel, He punished this nation too for all that they have done. Forget about what the calvinist tells you. They are not part of this conversation.

I am surprised that you only see that God uses men's sinful actions to bring good. How is it you don't see there the sovereignty of God and speak not a word about it here? Why do you not see in there that God is sovereign over His creation, over mankind, over kings, over nations? That God rightfully and justly can use people and persons to bring about His purpose at the time He appointed it to happen and in the exact manner He planned for the events to come to pass, without choosing for them or making them like robots or puppets, without them being conscious of it, nor even without them meaning to do so, nor their heart thinking so in doing such things, and holds them responsible and so punish them for it after? That really would be, even to many Christians, something that one could not easily get over with their human mind and reasoning. It takes faith to accept and to understand.

Tong
R0355

 

[Tong2020]

Which Israel are you talking about here? We are Israel if we are in Christ. Of course God does what he pleases. That's far different than saying God's will is always done on Earth.

You asked "Which Israel are you talking about here?" Of course, since we are talking about the scriptures in Ezekiel, the Israel referred to there that had profaned God's name among the nations, are the physical Israel that were scattered among the nations.

As I said my point there was to show you how unsearchable are God's judgments and how unfathomable are His ways, and to show you, that Israel's salvation is God's doing and only His doing, and that is, not because of any good that Israel had done.

You said "Of course God does what he pleases. That's far different than saying God's will is always done on Earth." And who says that God's will is always done on earth? Another strawman there again? I wonder when will these strawman run out.

Tong
R0356

 

[Tong2020]

Clearly metaphorical and not literal.

Hebrew 7:1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,” 3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually. 4 Now consider how great this man was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils. 5 And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brethren, though they have come from the loins of Abraham; 6 but he whose genealogy is not derived from them received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. 7 Now beyond all contradiction the lesser is blessed by the better. 8 Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives. 9 Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak, 10 for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.

So tell us, what does the writer of Hebrews meant by that, if not that, in a sense, even Levi, who was still in the loins of his father, that is, not yet existing, paid tithes through Abraham?

And you apparently skipped on

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

What is you understanding of "in Adam all die"?

What is you understanding of "in Christ all shall be made alive"?

Will be waiting for your response on this. Thanks.

Tong
R0357

 

[Renniks]

Why do you insist and keep bringing that subject up? If you want us to discuss that, just say so. You don't have to make up things like that just so we'll talk about it.

Okay, so what is it that you want us to discuss regarding individual salvation? That it is not taught in scriptures? What?

Tong
R0349

It should be obvious by now. It's the main topic of this thread. "Bringing it up?" It's at the center of this whole discussion. What is hard to understand about the concept that if some are born destined to be chosen for salvation, then all the rest are born destined for damnation?

 

[Candidus]

Hebrew 7:1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,” 3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually. 4 Now consider how great this man was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils. 5 And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brethren, though they have come from the loins of Abraham; 6 but he whose genealogy is not derived from them received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. 7 Now beyond all contradiction the lesser is blessed by the better. 8 Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives. 9 Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak, 10 for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.

So tell us, what does the writer of Hebrews meant by that, if not that, in a sense, even Levi, who was still in the loins of his father, that is, not yet existing, paid tithes through Abraham?

And you apparently skipped on

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

What is you understanding of "in Adam all die"?

What is you understanding of "in Christ all shall be made alive"?

Will be waiting for your response on this. Thanks.

Tong
R0357

As for as Levi "paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak.." Is similar to the passage in 1 Corinthians 15. Abraham is a representative of the physical and spiritual line of Abraham, we are (the whole race of mankind) the physical and spiritual descendants of Adam. In the case of Levi, he was "counted" as being a participant in Abrahams tithing. He obviously did not do it as sperm. There was no real connection to the tithe other than being the son of Abraham.

The similarity between the two passages is that a blessing or demerit affects the downstream of their descendants because of their connection upstream.

Sinning in Adam is not actual active "sinning" before we exist, but an effect of the Fall. Like makes like. Our spiritual and physical bodies (downstream) are affected by what Adam did. We are all his children. No one other than Adam is responsible for his sin. So, how do we "sin in Adam" and die, so to speak..? And how are we benefactors of the Second Adam, made alive, so to speak..?

You seem to approach this with the Calvinistic position is that this involves actual sin, whether by mystical transfer of character by imputation, or by some foreknowledge of personal guilt in the future that is counted as occurring in Adam.

"Original Sin" as many people describe this connection, is better defined in my opinion, as Inherited Depravity. This is to be understood in the sense that every descendant of Adam is born into this world with a depraved nature. Original Sin or Birth Sin is the corruption of the nature of every man that is a descendant of Adam. Did we as children of Adam, actually willfully transgress a known Law of God at the moment that Adam and Eve Fell spiritually? Or, when Adam Fell, did God look forward in His foreknowledge, see our personal sins as occurring the that very moment as Adam Fell? I am convinced that neither of these options are Biblical or logical. Another option I believe is a better understanding is to call it "Inherited Depravity." Either way, I see that this sin nature is transferred through to each person of the race by natural heredity. The crux of the issue is; are children born in a damnable state, personally guilty for sin? Or, are they born in a Fallen State in which spiritual life is not present? Both would account for our connection with Adam's sin, and Christ's righteousness.

We all try to get into the mind of God to understand how He views this. The problem is, we are not God! If I am to play the "If I were God" Game, I would say that there should be no snakes. I hate snakes! I loathe their existence... their "nature" offends me!

If I were God, there would be no snakes in my Heaven. They are odious to me! Their very nature offends me!

Now, this is flawed and not complete, but as I see it, the Depravity we Inherit, leaves the race in a Fallen state in which we are odious to God, and ineligible for entry into His presence and His Heaven. This is not our responsibility; it is our misfortune. No one goes to Hell for just being human. As the sin of Adam has a universal effect on all mankind, so does the Second Adam, Jesus Christ, have a universal effect on all mankind. The Corinthians passage contrasts the two in a "problem/answer" connection. As universal as one is, so is the other. Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, what Adam gave us is countered by the Second Adam. In what sense? We are still denied access to the Garden and the Tree of Life, and humanity still suffers sickness and death. So the physical demerit of Adam's sin still stands. So, we look to the spiritual to see the effect. The problem with Adam's Fall was that the Race is unqualified for Heaven because of the inherited fallen nature of all who are born. Yet, the work of Christ is said to "do" something universally to offset/negate this issue. Most would call it "grace" that renders humanity no longer disqualified for heaven because of the nature they were born with. I believe that everyone that is born receives grace. While we are in a a sense victims of "Total Depravity," God through Jesus Christ gives grace so that we are able to respond and choose between good and evil. "Total Depravity" means that we cannot work our way to God on our own, yet the Bible describes men as having "Total Depravity" but yet "waxing worse and worse." The "Total" is our inability to save ourselves, not the depths to with we can still descend. Adam gave us physical life, and spiritual death. Jesus, by His grace, offsets this by assuring that no one is so devoid of Grace that they cannot blame God for making them that way.

As for the belief that we actually transgressed before we were born has led to many theories; one being Baptismal Regeneration; the necessity of urgently Baptizing children so they do not go to Hell before they die. Instead of trying to look at Original Sin in the sense of a personal guilt that we have to resolve by ourselves, I believe that no one goes to Hell for any personal sins at the time of Adam, but that it is an Inherited Depravity that apart from the Atonement of Christ, would have rendered us to be unfit for Heaven before we can choose right and wrong. We did not do anything to become unfit for Heaven; we were born that way. One does not need to be forgiven for Inherited Depravity; we did nothing in which we need to be forgiven of, but we do need to be cleansed from it. Inherited Depravity is not our responsibility, and therefore we are not held accountable. Inherited Depravity is not our fault; it is our misfortune.

I have taken the time to try to show you how I see this connection, can you clarify your view as to what these passages are saying?

 

[Renniks]

As I said my point there was to show you how unsearchable are God's judgments and how unfathomable are His ways, and to show you, that Israel's salvation is God's doing and only His doing, and that is, not because of any good that Israel had done.

Are you of the opinion that everyone in the nation of Israel will be saved? Because that's what it sounds like you are saying. I don't believe that is what Paul meant by all Israel being saved, but that he meant all the become grafted in through accepting Christ, and all Jews who accept Christ will be saved. A friend of mine who is Jewish calls himself a "completed" Jew because he has accepted Jesus, the Jewish Messiah.

 

[Renniks]

By man came death, physical death in view, for the context so speak of physical resurrection. And we know that such came because of Adam's sin. All die physically because of Adam's fall ~ the cause of death is Adam. Therefore, Adam did not die for himself alone, but for all mankind, that is what is meant by "For as in Adam all die" in the passage. Now we know that death is condemnation. And so, since all mankind dies, are we then not condemned in that sense together with Adam? The obvious answer is yes. That's is why I objected in what you said in your post #978 "No we all are condemned for our sin, not for Adams and I already said that Adams fall was the start of everyone sinning. That's not the same as being condemned for someone else's sin."

So, you are taking "All men die" as both spiritual and physical and yet taking "In Christ all men live" as only the physical resurrection?

 

[Renniks]

Considering all that you said there, it does not take away the fact that only those who believes in the God that Jesus refers to, could only be the one who can call to Him and ask. And with that, Jesus was not talking about "everyone" as referring to all mankind. Now, if I were to consider that Jesus was referring to all mankind, the problem is, even while Jesus says that if they seek they will find, the fact is, they don't seek or if they do seek, their worship of idols and false gods tells us whom it is they seek. And evidently it is not the God whom Jesus was telling them about that they seek. It is evident throughout history and since the fall of Adam, who and what man is, even them whom God had chosen among mankind (physical Israel), to whom He even revealed Himself in a very special and convincing way that He is God and there is none other, and even made covenant with them, who nonetheless at the end of the day, still exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator. That is mankind my friend. So, we should stop thinking of man as somebody who is more than that, as though there is good that dwells in him by nature, that is, in his flesh, for there is none

Well, you are just wrong. People can and do sincerely seek God. Noah was a righteous man. Cornelius was a Roman, who searched for the true God before his conversion. I can find other Biblical examples if you wish. No, not on their own, but as I said before, you seem to think God is hiding and unwilling to help those who seek to find him. If men can't seek God, then God is unjust in punishing them for not seeking him! God said there was nothing more he could have done to make his people bear fruit, to make them his.
He says: 2All day long I have held out My hands to an obstinate people who walk in the wrong path, who follow their own imaginations,…" If they were incapable of seeking him, it would be pretty silly to be holding his hands out in hopes that they would.

 

[Renniks]

I disagree sir. As I pointed out, it is man who started it all, that is, when Adam sinned. Man first sinned. And sinning, he became a slave of sin and death reigned over him. Now I suppose you know what a slave is, at least what it is in the context of the Bible. He isn't a freeman, and could only do what his master commands him to do. If another should command him to do something, even while he is willing to do it, he just can't as he is held captive by his master. So, for him to be able, he must first be set free from his slavery.

With regards the scriptures you quoted from John 1:12, who do you say are the many who received him, them who believed on His name? Who are they? Does not the next verse (v.13) tells us who they are, that is, and I quote "who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Tong
R0352

What does that tell us? Simply that God does the work of salvation and not us. It says nothing about us being incapable of seeking after salvation.

Obviously, the term "slave" is used figurately by Paul to refer to those who are lost in sin, and also he says we can be a slave to Christ. But he also says we need to submit to Christ because we are his slaves. So obviously, this slavery doesn't cancel out our choices to either follow him or not. It's not absolute bondage that makes change impossible.
"If another should command him to do something, even while he is willing to do it, he just can't as he is held captive by his master. So, for him to be able, he must first be set free from his slavery."
No, this is incorrect. If one is willing to change, God is willing to help them change. The only power Satan has to hold anyone is the power we give him. All it takes to change is a willingness to cry out to God and he will not fail to hear and rescue us.

 

[Renniks]

What we know is that when God planned fro. eternity past, when there was no creation yet, all of these came into play when God planned.

Then you are saying what you claimed you did not say, that God preordained all of man's sin?

 

[kcnalp]

2 Peter 2:5-6
5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

Amen Jesus!

Mt 7 Narrow is the way that leads to life and FEW there be who find it.

 

[Tong2020]

It should be obvious by now. It's the main topic of this thread. "Bringing it up?" It's at the center of this whole discussion. What is hard to understand about the concept that if some are born destined to be chosen for salvation, then all the rest are born destined for damnation?

According to scriptures, there are those born according to the flesh and those born according to the Spirit. Do you believe and accept that? Two different kinds, don't you agree? And what do you know about those born according to the flesh and those born according to the Spirit?

Tong
R0358

 

[Tong2020]

Are you of the opinion that everyone in the nation of Israel will be saved? Because that's what it sounds like you are saying. I don't believe that is what Paul meant by all Israel being saved, but that he meant all the become grafted in through accepting Christ, and all Jews who accept Christ will be saved. A friend of mine who is Jewish calls himself a "completed" Jew because he has accepted Jesus, the Jewish Messiah.

No, with respect to OT Israel. Yes, with respect to NT Israel. I have already pointed out in one of my posts to you, one way or another, that what we have in the OT until the NT, are shadows of reality, which reality had come in the NT. OT Israel is but the shadow of the real Israel of God. The real Israel of God, as revealed in the NT scriptures, are the children of God (Rom.9:6-8), the children of promise, them born according to the Spirit (Gal. 4:28-29), like Isaac. They are the chosen race, the holy nation, the royal priesthood that Peter speaks of in 1 Pet.2:9.

Tong
R0359

 

[Tong2020]

So, you are taking "All men die" as both spiritual and physical and yet taking "In Christ all men live" as only the physical resurrection?

First, there is no "All men die" in the passage I quoted. So, I don't have a take on that.

What I was saying is that, in 1 Corinthians 15:20, physical death is in view more than that of the spiritual, as per the context. But death, physical or spiritual, is condemnation, the wages of sin. And since all man dies, even the infants die, all then are condemned in this sense. Why is that?

Tong
R0360

 

[Tong2020]

Well, you are just wrong. People can and do sincerely seek God. Noah was a righteous man. Cornelius was a Roman, who searched for the true God before his conversion. I can find other Biblical examples if you wish. No, not on their own, but as I said before, you seem to think God is hiding and unwilling to help those who seek to find him. If men can't seek God, then God is unjust in punishing them for not seeking him! God said there was nothing more he could have done to make his people bear fruit, to make them his.
He says: 2All day long I have held out My hands to an obstinate people who walk in the wrong path, who follow their own imaginations,…" If they were incapable of seeking him, it would be pretty silly to be holding his hands out in hopes that they would.

Well, I have shown you what man is according to scriptures, which you have not rebutted, but just said that I am wrong. You don't believe scriptures that testified since the fall of Adam, who and what man is, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, even them whom God had chosen among mankind (physical Israel), to whom He even revealed Himself in a very special and convincing way that He is God and there is none other, and even made covenant with them. That is mankind according to God, my friend. But you still choose to believe in what you think the nature of man is.

Well, let me be as open as I could be with you in this discussion. So, you mentioned of Noah, Cornelius, perhaps a few more among the millions of other men and women who had lived and died. If you can do some math, try taking the percentage of the Noahs and Corneliuses with respect to all of man that existed. Or to be simpler, try calculating what percentage the 8 persons saved in the flood at Noah's time with respect to those killed. If even for just say only a million people died in Noah's time, 8 people would constitute only about 0.0008%. My point is that, the number of such persons appears to be very very far from making a case and argument regarding the nature of man. You even have proven by what the scriptures says of the nature of man, when you said "God said there was nothing more he could have done to make his people bear fruit, to make them his." That's just an expression of what the nature of of the kind of Adam is my friend. And again in this quote "2All day long I have held out My hands to an obstinate people who walk in the wrong path, who follow their own imaginations,…". And that even are already people whom God had revealed Himself by special revelations. All those confirm the corrupted nature of man. Now God did not create Adam like so. So, why is man as such as scriptures testifies of him? Is it because of Adam?

Now, you argue "If men can't seek God, then God is unjust in punishing them for not seeking him!" God is not unjust. God do not punish them for not seeking Him. God punishes them for their sin.

Tong
R0361