Death penalty.

[CadyandZoe]

Here is where I would start.

Genesis 9:6
Whoever sheds man’s blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.

The verse above remains the justification for capital punishment. Later, we learn that God draws a distinction between personal vengeance, which he hates, and justice practiced by the state, which he approves.

Romans 12:19
Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.

The vengeance of God is not arbitrary or excessive. The vengeance of God is measured, slow, deliberate, restrained, limited and etc.

Romans 13:3-4
3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

God says the vengeance is his to repay. And he has chosen to repay his vengeance through the state, who acts as his minister, bringing wrath one the one who practices evil. Thus, the role of the state is to reward the good and punish the evil. Whoever sheds man's blood, by the state his blood shall be shed. But only after a fair trial, where all the evidence is presented and only on the word of two or three witnesses.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I can see someone quoting "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" in order to justify capital punishment
However i disagree with capital punishment. In fact I think that prison sentences are too harsh these days

In a perfect world, there would be no need for capital punishment. But we do not live in a perfect world.

I swear that if someone raped my wife or murdered my kids my very first, strong, impulse would be to find the person and kill them in the most painful way possible. God tells me, however, that vengeance is his and that I should not take my own revenge.

My point is this, capital punishment is the imperfect but best solution we have to deal with a sinful race. Consider the alternative. I just admitted to the fact that if I were to take my own revenge, I would be very tempted to escalate my response. This is consistent with the opening chapters of Genesis where we read Lamech's boast that while Cain's vengeance was seven-fold, his vengeance will be seventy seven-fold. Genesis 4:23-24 In other words, acts of revenge often escalate to a greater and greater degree.

The state imposed death penalty keeps vengeance from escalating out of proportion, providing a just and equitable measure of justice.

What if a man accidentally kills another man? The Law provided a special city where that man might go to avoid the wrath of the vengeful relatives of the victim. As long as the man remained in the "sanctuary city" he was safe from the victim's relatives.

Today, some courts decide to punish a murderer with life in prison. In a real sense, these courts have perverted justice, treating the murderer as one who committed an accidental killing. The prison becomes a sanctuary city of sorts, keeping the victim's family from getting the vengeance they want and deserve.

If it wasn't for the Judeo-Christian influence on society, we might witness a return to escalated vengeance. I hate to see what that world looks like.

 

[Cristo Rei]

I often think of those that have to carry out the execution as well, wonder if it affects them !?
I guess another question to ask is if you had to carry out an execution, how would you feel about it as a Christian ?

Your a deep thinker @Rita , u brought up some interesting points. I'll just focus on this.

In the olden days they used to kill people by firing squad u would probably have heard.
They may be 10 or 15 gunmen but only half of them had real bullets, the others shot blanks.
No one knew if their riffle had a real bullet. This was done to prevent the soldiers from getting tormented, PTSD, its real

A person must either have a cold heart or honestly believe that they are doing good to be an executioner.
I always thought a mortician would be a cold a difficult job to do and God bless them because it really is an "essential service" i would say
But an executioner, now thats cold...

How about someone who does abortions... An executioner in my book. Pulling out an unborn child limb by limb...
I saw this guy on youtube that used to do abortions, his done thousands.
He got married but when they tried to have a child God wouldn't give him one. They kept trying but no baby.
That completely changed his mindset. He always felt he was helping the woman but never considered the unborn child as a miracle of life
He became so deeply disgusted that he gave up the practice. Now his an advocated against abortion

P.S he and his wife ended up having a healthy baby

 

[Cristo Rei]

Today a lot are treated as once a criminal, always a criminal.

Or even it might be simply something someone may say, and people hold that against someone for a long time.....

I would replace the words "a lot" with "you" and the words "a log time" i would replace with "for life"

Once you get convicted of a crime and/or have gone to jail you are literally branded, you have a criminal record
And these days more and more industries are demanding a police check.
Even if u get charged but found not guilty it still appears on your record and employers will frown upon it.

U said your dad worked in a prison. A Victoria prison? Which one?

 

[Cristo Rei]

In a perfect world, there would be no need for capital punishment. But we do not live in a perfect world.

I swear that if someone raped my wife or murdered my kids my very first, strong, impulse would be to find the person and kill them in the most painful way possible. God tells me, however, that vengeance is his and that I should not take my own revenge.

My point is this, capital punishment is the imperfect but best solution we have to deal with a sinful race. Consider the alternative. I just admitted to the fact that if I were to take my own revenge, I would be very tempted to escalate my response. This is consistent with the opening chapters of Genesis where we read Lamech's boast that while Cain's vengeance was seven-fold, his vengeance will be seventy seven-fold. Genesis 4:23-24 In other words, acts of revenge often escalate to a greater and greater degree.

The state imposed death penalty keeps vengeance from escalating out of proportion, providing a just and equitable measure of justice.

What if a man accidentally kills another man? The Law provided a special city where that man might go to avoid the wrath of the vengeful relatives of the victim. As long as the man remained in the "sanctuary city" he was safe from the victim's relatives.

Today, some courts decide to punish a murderer with life in prison. In a real sense, these courts have perverted justice, treating the murderer as one who committed an accidental killing. The prison becomes a sanctuary city of sorts, keeping the victim's family from getting the vengeance they want and deserve.

If it wasn't for the Judeo-Christian influence on society, we might witness a return to escalated vengeance. I hate to see what that world looks like.

My answer to the alternative would be incarceration.
I have a more detailed explanation in posts #35 and #36. Have a read of them and let me know what u think...

 

[Josho]

I would replace the words "a lot" with "you" and the words "a log time" i would replace with "for life"

Once you get convicted of a crime and/or have gone to jail you are literally branded, you have a criminal record
And these days more and more industries are demanding a police check.
Even if u get charged but found not guilty it still appears on your record and employers will frown upon it.

U said your dad worked in a prison. A Victoria prison? Which one?

No, not that I know of, he worked in Port Augusta Prison, and he did prison ministry in Queensland too, Arthur Gorrie Prison I think, after that he took a break from it and returned to it for a short time, that being the latest was probably a decade ago, when he went to Bali, he was going to see Shapelle Corby, but he arrived too late on that day, visiting hours were over or something and he wasn't allowed in. So instead he sent some Christian books to her and I think he also sent a letter, but while he was not allowed into the prison, he did evangelise to the guards. Hehehe.

 

[Josho]

No, not that I know of, he worked in Port Augusta Prison, and I think he did a little bit of prison ministry in Brisbane too, and took a break from it and returned to it for a short time, that being the latest was probably a decade ago, when he went to Bali, he was going to see Shapelle Corby, but he arrived too late on that day, visiting hours were over or something and he wasn't allowed in. So instead he sent some Christian books to her and I think he also sent a letter, but while he was not allowed into the prison, he did evangelise to the guards. Hehehe.

Oh and during his time as Prison chaplain in Port Augusta prison, a third of the prison was led to Jesus. That was in the 90s. He has also seen thousands turn to Jesus in a Texas prison within a very short time.

Praise the Lord.

 

[Rita]

Your a deep thinker @Rita , u brought up some interesting points. I'll just focus on this.

In the olden days they used to kill people by firing squad u would probably have heard.
They may be 10 or 15 gunmen but only half of them had real bullets, the others shot blanks.
No one knew if their riffle had a real bullet. This was done to prevent the soldiers from getting tormented, PTSD, its real

A person must either have a cold heart or honestly believe that they are doing good to be an executioner.
I always thought a mortician would be a cold a difficult job to do and God bless them because it really is an "essential service" i would say
But an executioner, now thats cold...

How about someone who does abortions... An executioner in my book. Pulling out an unborn child limb by limb...
I saw this guy on youtube that used to do abortions, his done thousands.
He got married but when they tried to have a child God wouldn't give him one. They kept trying but no baby.
That completely changed his mindset. He always felt he was helping the woman but never considered the unborn child as a miracle of life
He became so deeply disgusted that he gave up the practice. Now his an advocated against abortion

P.S he and his wife ended up having a healthy baby

Yes, I had heard about the firing squads- but most prisons now use methods that would involve someone being given a lethal injection- out of interest do they still use the electrocution ?
I was pondering this issue further, if I know in my heart that I could not personally take a life, then could I expect someone else to do it on my behalf - not sure I could. Would I then have to determine that actually I am against the death sentence ! ?
Years ago when I did an ethic course at a London bible college I had to determined where I stood on war and the taking of life. I reached a conclusion that I agreed with just war, one that was rooted in self defence.
The Second World War was in defence of others ,to me, despite the losses It incurred, it was justified. The First World War, I felt was not a just war, it was a war that lost endless lives for no just reason.

The issue of abortion - I once discussed this with a Christian doctor, and also had to cover this on my course ( not an easy subject - it is not something I would ever opt for.) The conclusions from this doctor, and others, were that many saw life beginning at different points. Some viewed it as potential life from the word go ( that’s the stand that I would take ) Many viewed life as being after so many weeks into the pregnancy, and up to that stage it was just an embryo.( this was the stand the Christian doctor took ) he felt no conscience with regards to terminating a pregnancy up until a certain period of time. Still others viewed it as not being a life until birth.
If a person genuinely believed that the embryo was nothing but cells , and not an actual baby, then he would not feel he was ending an actual life. He would not terminate any pregnancy after so many weeks.
A pastor friend of mine found him and his wife with an awful situation, the baby she was carrying , sadly, had no brain covering. It was determined that the baby would not survive for long once born. The risk to the mother was an issue. They didn’t know what to do , but in the end felt that the risk with the mother was too high, they terminated the pregnancy by inducing early labour. They viewed it as switching of a life support machine , it’s not something they wanted, but it was a choice they felt they had to make.
My grandchild was aborted by my sons partner, I offered to adopt the baby, pleaded with the girlfriend to give the baby a chance - against my sons wishes she terminated , I grieved that baby. He went on to have another child with someone else.
Difficult subject to deal with x
Rita

 

[Bobby Jo]

... I have 12 grandchildren who I love so much and the thought of anyone willfully and deliberately killing a defenseless child should not be allowed to live.
...
What about love you say? Fine. I have copious amounts of love for those who have lost their lives and their family that has to suffer permanently. Some family members of murdered people suffer until the day they die.

So well argued that I'm changing my mind whether to vote. So now adamantly -- YES.
Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

... we need to value truth over emotion not to jump to immediate conclusions until we have all the facts presented to us.

Some people get a trial, but NOT GUILTY doesn't mean that O.J. didn't murder his wife and another young man; and yet others never see justice like George Floyd, or Hillary Clinton. And so we must go with enough wisdom to see beyond the excuses to perceive the society we live in.

Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

... I would only agree with this penalty If the evidence , forensic and other, proved 100% that the person was guilty. ...

If 100% is the criteria for punishment, then virtually EVERY CRIMINAL gets released back into society. So now we all live in FEAR.


Bobby Jo

 

[Rita]

If 100% is the criteria for punishment, then virtually EVERY CRIMINAL gets released back into society. So now we all live in FEAR.


Bobby Jo

I was asked my opinion on whether I agreed with the death penalty itself, not punishment as a whole. So I didn’t say guilt had to be proved 100% for punishments in general , because it is often impossible to prove 100%. There are countless examples of people being wrongly accused, when this happens the person can be given their freedom back, but you can’t give them back their lives if they have been executed. There are many examples of people admitting their guilt, and forensic evidence proving totally they they were guilty.
So, I was basically saying that as the punishment is more severe there needs to be certainty.
Rita

 

[Cristo Rei]

The Second World War was in defence of others ,to me, despite the losses It incurred, it was justified. The First World War, I felt was not a just war, it was a war that lost endless lives for no just reason.

But WW2 was a continuation of WW1. The Germans trying to take over Europe. 20 million deaths in WW1, 85 million deaths in WW2.
If the UK didn't step in WW1 Europe would of fallen to Germany and eventually probably the UK as well.

Maybe u feel that way cos the UK didn't get attacked directly in WW1 whereas in WW2 the battle of Britain happened early in the war.
But even so Churchill had already declared war on Germany before the Battle of Britain
They sent troops into France to try and defend the blitzkreig into Paris

The issue of abortion - I once discussed this with a Christian doctor, and also had to cover this on my course ( not an easy subject - it is not something I would ever opt for.

Its such a touchy subject cos we are talking about our children. The vaccine debate has the same kind of heat to it

The conclusions from this doctor, and others, were that many saw life beginning at different points. Some viewed it as potential life from the word go ( that’s the stand that I would take ) Many viewed life as being after so many weeks into the pregnancy, and up to that stage it was just an embryo.( this was the stand the Christian doctor took ) he felt no conscience with regards to terminating a pregnancy up until a certain period of time. Still others viewed it as not being a life until birth.

Im like u, its starts at conception. A good moral argument i feel is this...
An immoral act is a deliberate one that does harm... At 10 weeks the unborn child can feel pain... Aborting it would inflict pain/harm = immoral

My grandchild was aborted by my sons partner, I offered to adopt the baby, pleaded with the girlfriend to give the baby a chance - against my sons wishes she terminated , I grieved that baby. He went on to have another child with someone else.

A good friend of mine had the same thing happen to him. They actually had agreed to have the baby only for him to find out she aborted it.
The guy was a soldier and is built like a machine, but that broke him. I told him to break up with her cos she showed no remorse at all
But he stayed with her. Good to hear your son ended up making a family but

 

[Bobby Jo]

... I was basically saying that as the punishment is more severe there needs to be certainty.
Rita

MANY people are INCARCERATED who are INNOCENT. So what about them? Some of THEM are raped, stabbed, assaulted, and murdered? Don't they deserve 100% guilty before brutalized?

We do the best we can, but life is inherently imperfect.
Bobby Jo

 

[Rita]

But WW2 was a continuation of WW1. The Germans trying to take over Europe. 20 million deaths in WW1, 85 million deaths in WW2.

Now this is quite interesting because I was always taught that the First World War was started by Royals arguing amongst themselves !!
the Second World War was started by Germany invading Poland
So, WW2 was just because it was in defence of another country being invaded, the WW1 was started for completely different reasons - and the poor soldiers in World War One didn’t stand a chance - many of my ancestors died in that war. So maybe I evaluated it on the cause , the outcome may have been the same but they started for different reasons. ( or at least that is what I was led to believe ) When I did the course we did not have the internet. So I only evaluated it in what I knew at the time. I can see that I may have to look into that further.
Rita

 

[Rita]

MANY people are INCARCERATED who are INNOCENT. So what about them? Some of THEM are raped, stabbed, assaulted, and murdered? Don't they deserve 100% guilty before brutalized?

We do the best we can, but life is inherently imperfect.
Bobby Jo

Bobby jo, I was just giving my opinion on one aspect of punishment - of course it matters that people are incarcerated who are innocent, but we were not debating that. I was just looking at it from one prospective.
Rita

 

[Bobby Jo]

... I was just looking at it from one prospective.

Understood.

Bobby Jo

 

[kcnalp]

I wonder how many innocents have been victimized (both in jail and out of jail) by those who should have been executed. -- And I suspect that DEATH ratio is MUCH HIGHER.

So would you let a man judged guilty go free because of the Preponderance versus Concrete Evidence? And what of his victim and future victims? Are these CLEAR INNOCENTS now subjected to his own "Death Penalty"?


Life may be imperfect but we do the best we can. Otherwise, it's worse.
Bobby Jo

The court system is totally corrupt.

 

[kcnalp]

I don't know how one would feel to be an executioner, but it must be hard to live with that sort of job.

I certainly wouldn't feel good about it.

Yeah, knowing you have executed innocent people.

 

[kcnalp]

I have never really found it very easy to know what I feel about the death penalty- /QUOTE]
It is playing God.