English translations of the Bible

[stitchy]

Hi all,First, I ask that you receive what I have to say with grace and mercy because I know I am not a perfect person and I am in no way trying to tell others what and what not to believe... this is simply something I am struggling with at the present time.I am becoming sceptical of English Bible translations. I believe firmly that God's Word is infallible, however, I don't believe translations are infallible. I've never studied the Bible in its original language and now I'm starting to wonder if translations could be leading us away from the original intended meaning of scripture.I came across a book written by someone who, after studying parts of the Bible in Hebrew, came to the belief that hell will not be eternal. He brought up a lot of points on this, and one was the idea that some Hebrew words have been wrongly translated in English (he reckoned that in some places where the English word "eternal" has been used, the original Hebrew word actually meant a measurable amount of time). Now I haven't decided whether I believe this or not, but I have come to a place where I am questioning what is right. I believe in God and Jesus and I love Him very much, but I am worried that I am being mislead by "mainstream" Christianity. The early churches did not preach the idea of an eternal hell - and my pastor at church even confirmed this when I asked him about it. Has anyone else struggled with this kind of thing before? Do you think it's worth buying a Hebrew concordance? Again I wish to stress that I'm not trying to blaspheme or anything, I am just searching to find what is right and good in a world that is just so confusing with all its different ideas and interpretations of things..

 

[chrissy]

Hey stitchy, I read the KJV(not revised). I do find myself with similar problems sometimes. I tend to look for really old bibles, but they are in english, seeing that I am english. I do have a strong's concordance that gives me the Hebrew definition of words. I'll say there is a difference between translations, especially within the english language. For example, the KJV to NKJV there are differences, or from the KJV to NIV...huge differences! There could be differences between the Hebrew bible and the KJV, I don't know myself. I think the older the bible is I think the translation is most accurate. (well the KJV) I have one bible here with me that is quite old and it is the KJV, but it's so old that it doesn't seem to have KJV written in it, seeing that it was probably the only bible circulating during that time. Is is from Britain. I keep it as a reference when I am reading the KJV bible that may have been printed in the past 20 years. And yes there are some "minor" differences. Anyhow I'm possibly being repetative, so I'll cut it short. Oh and why not get a Hebrew concordance? Although you must know that now the Hebrew language is not the same as it once was. It also has been revised, so try and find an old hebrew concordance. Take care!

 

[Nomad]

The early Church did in fact teach the doctrine of Hell.Ignatius of AntiochCorrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire, and so will anyone who listens to him (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2 [A.D. 110]).Second ClementIf we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).Justin MartyrNo more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons (ibid. 52).The Martyrdom of PolycarpFixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).AthenagorasWe [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).Theophilus of AntiochGive studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God.... [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortally by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . , For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181]).IrenaeusThe penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . It is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, "Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire," they will be damned forever (Against Heresies 4:28:2 [A.D. 189]).HippolytusStanding before [Christ's] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: "Just is your judgment!" And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).Minucius FelixI am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them (Octavius 34:12-5:3 [A.D. 226]).Cyprian of CarthageAn ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).Cyril of JerusalemWe shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike; For if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).That being said, there are some very good English translations that capture the meaning of the original languages very well. NASB, ESV, KJV, NKJV, etc., are a few examples.As far as Hebrew words like "olam" goes, it can in fact mean "everlasting."H5769עלם / עולם‛ôlâmBDB Definition:1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world1a) ancient time, long time (of past)1b) (of future)1b1) for ever, always1b2) continuous existence, perpetual1b3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternityIf that were not enough, Jesus speaks very clearly about eternal punisment. For example:Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. While the Greek noun "aion" can mean age, which those who try to "debunk" Hell will gladly point out, the adjectival form, "aionios" as well as idiomatic expressions such as "eis ton aiona" and eis tous aionas ton aionon" mean "eternal." G166αιώνιοςaiōniosThayer Definition:1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be2) without beginning3) without end, never to cease, everlastingPart of Speech: adjectiveThe idioms eis ton aiona and eis tous aionas ton aionon both mean "forever." - William D. Mounce, Basics of Biblical Greek Grammar, p. 104, footnote #10One more intersting note. While I know very little Hebrew, I do know Greek and I notice that the Septuagint (Greek translation of the OT) uses the Greek adjective "aionios" (forever, everlasting, etc.) to translate "olam" in verses like Daniel 12:2.Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[sniper762]

many hebrew words were mis-translated from the originnal bible and their english translation brought many unintended meanings to the scriptures. one example is the hebrew word, "bersheet" meaning organized, which was translated to english as "created". (big difference). this word mentioned in the very first sentence in the bible has distorted the true intent of god's word. many others have been noted.

 

[gervais]

[quote name='sniper762;73831]many hebrew words were mis-translated from the originnal bible and their english translation brought many unintended meanings to the scriptures. one example is the hebrew word' date=' "bersheet" meaning organized, which was translated to english as "created". (big difference). this word mentioned in the very first sentence in the bible has distorted the true intent of god's word. many others have been noted.[/QUOTE']Where did you come up with that word? All of my Hebrew texts have: H1254בּראbârâ'A primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes): - choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

 

[Christina]

Thats is the reason that this site recommends the KJV and a strongs concordance as every word can be taken back to the original Hebrew and/or greek once you learn to do this, its not so confusing to read any version because you can go check for yourself what was said /ment you can do that easily here http://www.blueletterbible.org/search.cfm#search Make sure you put a check mark in show strongs then click the little number next to any word to read the hebrew or greek word/translation

 

[sniper762]

בראשית ברא אלהים את השמיםBeit/Resh/Aleph/Shin/Yod/Tav-BersheetBeit/Resh/Aleph-BaraAleph/Lamid/Hey/Yod/Mem-EloheemAleph/Tev-AutHey/Shin/Mem/Yod/Mem-HaShameemhttp://www.christianforums.com/t7296163/ i read that the hebrew word that "create came from was bersheet meaning "organized" not created

 

[Christina]

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search.cfm#search[/URL] Make sure you put a check mark in show strongs then click the little number next to any word to read the hebrew or greek word/translation

I suggest you follow the above and learn for yourself before just listening to anyone else

 

[gervais]

Gen 1:1 God in the beginning created the heavens and the earth - בראשית ברא אלהים את השמים ואת הארץ Bereshith bara Elohim eth hashshamayim veeth haarets; God in the beginning created the heavens and the earth.[/B]

 

[Elaine]

Stitchy,You haven't been around for 10 days tomorrow ---before I say anything - are you still there?Hope all is well.And I'm with you on your op -esp referring to hell.

 

[Butch5]

http://apostolicbible.com/[/url]This is the English translationhttp://www.ecmarsh.com/lxx/

 

[Martin W.]

stitchyThe Original Hebrew and Greek languages are quite precise. Modern English is not so precise thus we will find some variations from time to time.Most translators try their best to be as accurate as possible but by their own admission they are not perfect.We are very fortunate in modern day to have most versions at our fingertips through the internet , and we can make our own comparisons. Keep in mind that it has only been in the last couple of hundred years that the printed bible has even been available to the common man.20 english language translations can be found here: http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/New-International-Version-NIV-Bible/#booksIf this is not satisfactory , you could spend a lifetime becoming a Greek and Hebrew scholar studying early manuscripts. Compile your own version and we would now have 21 english translations. 99% of your version would compare favorably with the others.The most accurate manuscripts would be the absolute originals penned in Hebrew and Greek by the original authors , but they are not available .Our generation is the first to have such a tremendous amount of excellent information available freely to the common man. We should be most thankful , but we usually are not. We tend to duplicate the critical mindset of the Pharisees .

 

[Teacher]

I am becoming sceptical of English Bible translations. I believe firmly that God's Word is infallible, however, I don't believe translations are infallible. I've never studied the Bible in its original language and now I'm starting to wonder if translations could be leading us away from the original intended meaning of scripture.

Stitchy:This is a very interesting topic you bring up. I began reading the KJV and thought everything was fine until I was told that the KJV was not the word of God, that is, that it was a translation of other languages that contained the original word of God.So, I have benefited from studying the Greek and Hebrew languages. It's not that hard to do. You just buy a English to Greek dictionary and away you go!

 

[jiggyfly]

The early Church did in fact teach the doctrine of Hell.

Ignatius of Antioch

Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire, and so will anyone who listens to him (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2 [A.D. 110]).

Second Clement

If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

Justin Martyr

No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).

[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons (ibid. 52).

The Martyrdom of Polycarp

Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).

Athenagoras

We [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).

Theophilus of Antioch

Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God.... [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortally by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . , For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181]).

Irenaeus

The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . It is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, "Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire," they will be damned forever (Against Heresies 4:28:2 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus

Standing before [Christ's] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: "Just is your judgment!" And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).

Minucius Felix

I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them (Octavius 34:12-5:3 [A.D. 226]).

Cyprian of Carthage

An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike; For if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).

That being said, there are some very good English translations that capture the meaning of the original languages very well. NASB, ESV, KJV, NKJV, etc., are a few examples.

As far as Hebrew words like "olam" goes, it can in fact mean "everlasting."

H5769

עלם / עולם

‛ôlâm

BDB Definition:
1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
1a) ancient time, long time (of past)
1b) (of future)
1b1) for ever, always
1b2) continuous existence, perpetual
1b3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

If that were not enough, Jesus speaks very clearly about eternal punisment. For example:

Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

While the Greek noun "aion" can mean age, which those who try to "debunk" Hell will gladly point out, the adjectival form, "aionios" as well as idiomatic expressions such as "eis ton aiona" and eis tous aionas ton aionon" mean "eternal."

G166
αιώνιος
aiōnios
Thayer Definition:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting
Part of Speech: adjective

The idioms eis ton aiona and eis tous aionas ton aionon both mean "forever." - William D. Mounce, Basics of Biblical Greek Grammar, p. 104, footnote #10

One more intersting note. While I know very little Hebrew, I do know Greek and I notice that the Septuagint (Greek translation of the OT) uses the Greek adjective "aionios" (forever, everlasting, etc.) to translate "olam" in verses like Daniel 12:2.

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

But this translation of the early church teaching employs the same mistranslations as most of the English bibles. So it really is not a well supported argument. Many of the scriptures speak very contrary to hell being a place of endless torment. The bottom line, we could argue about this till judgement day and nothing be solved. Endless torment or annihilation shows limited success and victory and partial glory to God while universal reconciliation shows complete success and victory with all glory to God.

 

[Nomad]

But this translation of the early church teaching employs the same mistranslations as most of the English bibles. So it really is not a well supported argument. Many of the scriptures speak very contrary to hell being a place of endless torment.

It's amazing to me that you can quote my entire presentation and still make such a statement. You've decided to resurrect this topic and yet you didn't bother to interact with any of my arguments or the Scripture I presented. Your bald assertions simply will not do. Since I can read Greek I would be very interested in exactly what is being mistranslated in our English Bibles. Be specific. Give me book, chapter and verse. Tell exactly which words are mistranslated and why.

 

[jiggyfly]

Well I sure didn't want to upset you by disagreeing with you opinion on the topic.


The Greek words mistranslated in many of the English bibles concerning this topic are aion and aionios.

 

[Nomad]

Well I sure didn't want to upset you by disagreeing with you opinion on the topic.


The Greek words mistranslated in many of the English bibles concerning this topic are aion and aionios.

That's cute, but I'm not upset. You're the one who revived this thread. Remember that.

I don't have a problem with disagreement. I have a problem with those who prefer what I like to call a theological drive-by or hit-and-run to actually interacting with my arguments and Biblical support.

Now, the noun "aion" can mean more than "eternal." However, context must be the determining factor. When "aion" is used as part of an idiomatic expression, for example, it always means "forever." An example of this is found in Rev. 20:10.

The idioms eis ton aiona and eis tous aionas ton aionon both mean "forever." -William D. Mounce, Basics of Biblical Greek Grammar, Part II: Noun System, p.104

If you want to discuss this further you will need to provide book, chapter and verse for examination. I maintain however that there are no mistranslated examples of "aion" with regard to the Bible's teaching on Hell and eternal punishment.

As for the adjectival form "aionios," it always means "forever" or "eternal." It has no other meaning.

G166
αιώνιος
aiōnios
Thayer Definition:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G165
Citing in TDNT: 1:208, 31

Aionios: eternal - William D. Mounce, Basics of Biblical Greek Grammar, Lexicon, p. 414

 

[jiggyfly]

I wasn't trying to be cute as you call it, just replying to your post. I apologize for assuming you were upset.​

Several phrases in the Septuagint show that often eis ton aiona cannot be translated for ever.

'He shall be your servant for ever' (Deut 15: 17).​

'Will you take him as a slave for ever?' (Job 41: 4).​

'That he may appear before the Lord and stay there for ever' (1 Sam 1: 22).​

'Its smoke shall go up for ever' (Is 34: 10).​

[size=14pt]'The earth with her bars was about me for ever' (Jonah 2: 6).[/size]​

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

τῷ δὲ δυναμένῳ ὑμᾶς στηρίξαι κατὰ τὸ εὐαγγέλιόν μου καὶ τὸ κήρυγμα Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ κατὰ ἀποκάλυψιν μυστηρίου χρόνοις αἰωνίοις σεσιγημένου

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

τοῦ σώσαντος ἡμᾶς καὶ καλέσαντος κλήσει ἁγίᾳ οὐ κατὰ τὰ ἔργα ἡμῶν ἀλλὰ κατὰ ἰδίαν πρόθεσιν καὶ χάριν τὴν δοθεῖσαν ἡμῖν ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ πρὸ χρόνων αἰωνίων

Tts 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

ἐπ’ ἐλπίδι ζωῆς αἰωνίου ἣν ἐπηγγείλατο ὁ ἀψευδὴς θεὸς πρὸ χρόνων αἰωνίων


​

It is quite obvious that in these scriptures aionios does not mean for ever.



​

 

[Nomad]

Jonah 2:6 and Isa. 34:10 are examples of apocalyptic imagery which is hyperbolic from the start and an entirely different matter that requires it's own discussion. I would be happy to discuss these at another time.

Deut. 15:17, 1 Sam. 1:22 and Job 41:4 are akin with regard to your objection. I'll address only Deut. 15:17, but the following argument applies to all three.

There is no mistranslation with any of your examples. The problem is your concept of "forever." The idea behind "forever" is "perpetuity," not necessarily an infinite extension of time, which it cannot mean when applied to this earthly realm of existence. In Deut. 15:17 for example, perpetuity is a reference to the slave's commitment or promise to belong to his master "always" or "endlessly," never to be taken back, unto the time when the death of the slave or the master removes one of them from this earthly existence. Neither the slave nor the master can revoke this commitment which death will limit. It's perpetual. There is no such limitation in the life to come where the mortal puts on immortality, (1 Cor. 15:54). In other words, there are no limitations to be found in NT passages that teach perpetual conscious punishment. Here is a comment by J.N. Darby that is also helpful:

But eis ton aiona, can only mean "for ever," though "for ever" may be used metaphorically when there is no withdrawal of the gift or promise, and the effect cannot last longer than that to which it applies. The gift has no limit (it is, as Aristotle says, apeiria), the existence of that to which it applies may. I do not lend it, I give it for ever; yet what I give, or the person to whom it is given, may cease to exist; but the gift is for ever, without repentance, out and out.

Now we need to see that the concept of "second death" does not entail the cessation conscious existence. Revelation tells us that being cast into the lake of fire is the second death.

Rev 20:14-15 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

As horrible as the thought is to us, we also need to see that the second death entails perpetual conscious torment.

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The second death is the final stage of God's plan for the unredeemed and Scripture nowhere indicates that it will end. If all of this were not enough, you face an even bigger problem that is fatal to your position.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The Greek words that modify "punishment" in this verse are the same words used to modify "life." If punishment in the life to come is not perpetual, than neither is the life we have in Christ. You can't have it both ways. This one verse alone is completley fatal to your view. Notice below how the same phraselogy is used for both punishment and life.

καὶ ἀπελεύσονται οὗτοι εἰς κόλασιν αἰώνιον, οἱ δὲ δίκαιοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

Now for your NT objections.

I don't know why you're using Rom. 16:25 as it does nothing to support your contention. The KJV is guilty of a mistranslation here. There is nothing the Greek text that says anything even close to "since the world began." The Greek text reads, χρόνοις αἰωνίοις which literally means "to times eternal." In other words, the mystery in view was kept hidden in eternity past. Again, the words "since" and "world" are nowhere to be found in the Greek text.

My comments regarding Rom. 16:25 also apply to 2 Tim. 1:9 and Titus 1:2. The words in question for both verses are πρὸ χρόνων αἰωνίων meaning "before times eternal." Once again the words "began" and "world" are nowhere to be found in the Greek text.

 

[jiggyfly]

Nice dodge but the emphasis of my post was not how KJV translated the verses I posted, but rather to show that the Greek word aionios does not always mean forever or eternal as you stated in your post. The only reason I posted the verse in the KJV was because not eveyone can read Greek. Plain and simple "forever" just doesn't fit, context as you said earlier is very important and "forever" simply does not fit into the context logically.


A more exhaustive study shows that aion and aionios have more to do with realm and quality than with time.