I agree with you here on the fact that both life and punishment are referenced with the same adjective but again it has much more to do with realm and quality than with time. Both the life and punishment come from God and the punishment is corrective and remedial. A study into God's justice reveals much, the object of God's justice is not revenge but more corrective and restitutive.
English translations of the Bible
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I agree with you here on the fact that both life and punishment are referenced with the same adjective but again it has much more to do with realm and quality than with time. Both the life and punishment come from God and the punishment is corrective and remedial. A study into God's justice reveals much, the object of God's justice is not revenge but more corrective and restitutive.
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
jiggyfly said:
That's a strange thing to say since I've demonstrated that exact opposite of your assertion which once again is completely unsubstantiated. So be it.
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
Well seems we disagree here because I pointed out a flaw in your demonstration and will stand by my previous post. Have a nice day.
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
Agely
A careful study of the Greek word “aionios” (translated as “eternal,” “everlasting,” and “forever and ever” in our English translations) shows that it comes from the Greek noun “aion” which always means “an indeterminate period of time.” It is a most unfortunate thing that the translators of old chose to translate “aionios” from the Latin language rather than the Greek from which the word is derived. God’s punishment will not last forever as is commonly taught, but will only last for the ages and only UNTIL God’s purpose for it is complete.
A careful study of the Greek word “aionios” (translated as “eternal,” “everlasting,” and “forever and ever” in our English translations) shows that it comes from the Greek noun “aion” which always means “an indeterminate period of time.” It is a most unfortunate thing that the translators of old chose to translate “aionios” from the Latin language rather than the Greek from which the word is derived. God’s punishment will not last forever as is commonly taught, but will only last for the ages and only UNTIL God’s purpose for it is complete.
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
Benoni said:
1. The noun aion does not always mean an indeterminate period of time, especially when used in an idiomatic expression.
2. The adjective "aionios" always means "everlasting" or "perpetual." Don't make the mistake of thinking that the adjectival form of a word means exactly the same as its nominal cognate.
I already addressed this, complete with lexical references. Where are your sources? And I don't mean a website whose owner has no formal Greek training. I mean textbook references written by scholars in their field as I have provided.
Once again, Matthew 25:46 clearly stands against your assertions. If the "punishment" mentioned in that verse isn't everlasting, then neither is "life."
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Benoni said:
Good post Benoni , I agree and special emphasis on "careful". I posted scriptures that addressed the flaws in Nomad's argument, but they were passed over.
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
In each of these it is obvious that the Geek word aionios can not possibly always mean forever and these scriptures make any sense.
I disagree. There are far too many religiously caused errors in God’s Word to believe what you are saying. This is my point these two little words that have been mistranslated their bias by translators like yourself condemn billions and billions of God's people God has not called. While the King James version states that the sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this world nor in the world to come, that is not quite the meaning of the Greek. The Greek word here translated "world" is AION.
This word AION has been translated into fifteen different English words and phrases, many of which convey the wrong meaning entirely. The simple meaning of AION is "age." An AION is "an age." Two AION(S) are two "ages." A thousand AION(S) are a thousand "ages." Some of the passages where AION is found will give us added information concerning it.
In Eph. 2:7 we find, "in the ages (aions) to come." In Col. 1:26 we find, "the mystery which has been hid from ages (aions)."
In Eph. 2:2 we find, "you walked according to the course (aion) of this world."
In Heb. 1:2 we find, "by whom also He made the worlds (aions)."
In Hebrews 11:3 we find, "the worlds (aions) were formed by the word of God."
In about fifteen instances, such as Mat. 12:32, I Cor. 1:20, etc., we find it rendered "this world (aion)." Twice we find "this present world (aion)."
In Gal. 1:4 we find, "deliver us from this present evil world (aion)."
In Eph. 6:12 we find, "the rulers of the darkness of this world (aion)."
In II Cor. 4:4 we find, "the god of this world (aion)." In I Cor. 2:6 we find, "the wisdom of this world (aion)."
In Mk. 4:19 we find, "the cares of this world (aion)."
How much clearer and understandable it would be if the translators had used the correct word age instead of world!
In Mk. 10:30 we find that there is not only this present aion, which is evil, but also "the world (aion) to come." Certainly this present age is an evil age, and the rulers of the darkness of this age are evil. Clearly God framed the ages, and there are not only "this age" and "the age to come," but there are also "the ages to come" (Eph. 2:7).
Any thinking person should plainly see that if you translate a word which means an age by the word world, you immediately get the wrong idea. It is incorrect and brings nothing but confusion. There is a great deal of difference between the expression, "It shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come," and the expression, "It shall not be forgiven him in this age, nor in the age to come."
The translation in Mat. 12:32 of "world" instead of "age," has been the source of an altogether erroneous concept. This "world" and the "world to come" has become so indelibly impressed on the Christian mind as meaning "this life and eternity," that it is next to impossible quickly to reverse the trend of belief and direct it into sound thinking. It makes all the difference in the world when one understands that our Lord was not contrasting "this world" with that "great
This word AION has been translated into fifteen different English words and phrases, many of which convey the wrong meaning entirely. The simple meaning of AION is "age." An AION is "an age." Two AION(S) are two "ages." A thousand AION(S) are a thousand "ages." Some of the passages where AION is found will give us added information concerning it.
In Eph. 2:7 we find, "in the ages (aions) to come." In Col. 1:26 we find, "the mystery which has been hid from ages (aions)."
In Eph. 2:2 we find, "you walked according to the course (aion) of this world."
In Heb. 1:2 we find, "by whom also He made the worlds (aions)."
In Hebrews 11:3 we find, "the worlds (aions) were formed by the word of God."
In about fifteen instances, such as Mat. 12:32, I Cor. 1:20, etc., we find it rendered "this world (aion)." Twice we find "this present world (aion)."
In Gal. 1:4 we find, "deliver us from this present evil world (aion)."
In Eph. 6:12 we find, "the rulers of the darkness of this world (aion)."
In II Cor. 4:4 we find, "the god of this world (aion)." In I Cor. 2:6 we find, "the wisdom of this world (aion)."
In Mk. 4:19 we find, "the cares of this world (aion)."
How much clearer and understandable it would be if the translators had used the correct word age instead of world!
In Mk. 10:30 we find that there is not only this present aion, which is evil, but also "the world (aion) to come." Certainly this present age is an evil age, and the rulers of the darkness of this age are evil. Clearly God framed the ages, and there are not only "this age" and "the age to come," but there are also "the ages to come" (Eph. 2:7).
Any thinking person should plainly see that if you translate a word which means an age by the word world, you immediately get the wrong idea. It is incorrect and brings nothing but confusion. There is a great deal of difference between the expression, "It shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come," and the expression, "It shall not be forgiven him in this age, nor in the age to come."
The translation in Mat. 12:32 of "world" instead of "age," has been the source of an altogether erroneous concept. This "world" and the "world to come" has become so indelibly impressed on the Christian mind as meaning "this life and eternity," that it is next to impossible quickly to reverse the trend of belief and direct it into sound thinking. It makes all the difference in the world when one understands that our Lord was not contrasting "this world" with that "great
jiggyfly said:
Nomad said:
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
Well, once again, more baseless assertions. No references. No sources. Allow me to demonstrate the proper way to do make a case.
The noun "aion" can mean "eternal" as well as "age."
However, context must be the determining factor. When "aion" is used as part of an idiomatic expression, for example, it always means "forever." An example of this is found in Rev. 20:10.
As for the adjectival form "aionios," it always means "forever" or "eternal." It has no other meaning.
Once again, none of my detractors will touch Matt. 25:46 with a ten foot pole. Again, if "punishment" in that verse isn't everlasting, then neither is "life."
Mat 25:46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
The noun "aion" can mean "eternal" as well as "age."
However, context must be the determining factor. When "aion" is used as part of an idiomatic expression, for example, it always means "forever." An example of this is found in Rev. 20:10.
As for the adjectival form "aionios," it always means "forever" or "eternal." It has no other meaning.
Once again, none of my detractors will touch Matt. 25:46 with a ten foot pole. Again, if "punishment" in that verse isn't everlasting, then neither is "life."
Mat 25:46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
In reference to Matthew 24:46 simple. God deal with man by ages. Man is not an eternal being, man had a beginning.
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Yes the context, and the context of the Book of Revelation is spiritual not literal. You see Revelation is a spiritual book, the most spiritual Book in the WHOLE BIBLE John was in spirit on the Lord's day, no where does it say John was being literal or partly literal as so many religously claim.
Nomad said:
Of course it simply is ludicrous to think that you and your 2 sources could be mistaken regardless of how ridiculous it makes the scripture sound.
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
No what's ludicrous here, is that once again, you offer nothing but bare assertions and sarcasm.
Those two sources are representative of many more. One is a standard lexicon and the the other a Greek Grammar used in seminaries all over the US. There are also at least 20 different English versions of the Bible, many of which are translated by committees, that disagree with you. Also, in my 2 years of formal Greek training I have never found any professor who didn't chuckle or roll his eyes when I mention what universalists want to do with the word "aion." It's simply laughable.
It's time for you to produce something of substance or have the decency to drop it. I invite you to show me one lexicon or Greek Grammar that supports your erroneous assertions. As you do you'll find that lexicon after lexicon and Grammar after Grammar are all going to tell you the same thing.
Those two sources are representative of many more. One is a standard lexicon and the the other a Greek Grammar used in seminaries all over the US. There are also at least 20 different English versions of the Bible, many of which are translated by committees, that disagree with you. Also, in my 2 years of formal Greek training I have never found any professor who didn't chuckle or roll his eyes when I mention what universalists want to do with the word "aion." It's simply laughable.
It's time for you to produce something of substance or have the decency to drop it. I invite you to show me one lexicon or Greek Grammar that supports your erroneous assertions. As you do you'll find that lexicon after lexicon and Grammar after Grammar are all going to tell you the same thing.
I really dio not care ludicrous it may sound to you; please explain to me how man is an eteranl being? Man had a begining there is no way aion and aionias means eternal, everlasting and forever and ever, these mistranslations from Rome and her baby sisters condemn billions and billions of God's people he caused to fall and he promise to redeem.
jiggyfly said:
The term forever (and its equivalents, eternal and everlasting) often occurs when it cannot possibly mean unending.
Take the story of Jonah while in the belly of the fish, "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever" (Jon. 2:6). But he was in the fish only three days and three nights!
The Hebrew slave loved his master and did not wish to go free at the end of the seventh year, we read, "... His master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever" (Ex. 21:6). Of course, that couldn't be longer than his life span.
Again, when Solomon built the temple unto the Lord, he began his prayer of dedication with the statement, "I have surely built You a house to dwell in, a settled place for You to abide in for ever" (I Kgs. 8:13). And the Lord answered Solomon, "I have heard your prayer and supplication that you have made before Me: I have hallowed this house, which you have built, to put My name there for ever" (I Kgs. 9:3).
But Solomon's temple lasted for only about 400 years! And it was never in God's mind to dwell there for ever!
Another illustration is the Aaronic priesthood. According to the King James version, Aaron and his sons were anointed as priests for ever. It says, "Their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations" (Ex. 40:15). Yet we read in Heb. 7:11-18 that the Aaronic priesthood is CHANGED to that of Melchizedek.
"Now if perfection had been attainable by the Levitical priesthood, for under it the people were given the Law, why was it further necessary that there should arise another and different kind of Priest, one after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one appointed after the order of Aaron? For when there is a CHANGE IN THE PRIESTHOOD, there is of necessity an alteration of the law concerning the priesthood as well. For it is obvious that our Lord sprang from the tribe of Judah, and Moses mentioned nothing about priests in connection with that tribe. So, a previous physical regulation and command is CANCELLED because of its weakness and ineffectiveness and uselessness" (Amplified Bible).
Amazing, isn't it, that the priesthood which was ordained for ever has been CANCELLED! There would be no contradiction if the statement in Exodus were translated as it should be, "to the age throughout their generations."
That is, throughout their generations AS LONG AS THAT AGE LASTED. In the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures which Jesus and His disciples used, the Greek word AION was the word used for the Hebrew OLAM. According to Hebrew and Greek usage, therefore, these words mean a period of time, a period of unknown length, the duration of which is determined by the fact or condition or person to which the term is applied.
Point 2
I believe God will punish the wicked.
And you are right the translators will tell you the word everlasting comes from the word aionios; but it is not right.
If you look at the word goat in the Greek it is kid; which is a baby goat.
world].
Sheep Separated from Goats
Matthew 25 Wycliffe 32 and all folks shall be gathered before him, and he shall separate them atwain, as a shepherd separateth sheep from kids[and he shall part them atwain, as a shepherd parteth sheep from kids];
33 and he shall set the sheep on his right half, and the kids on the left half [and the kids forsooth on his left half].
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
According to the Bible God is going to burn a baby goat in everlasting fire. Literally or figuratively this makes no sense; the problem is the word everlasting is a bad translation.
I believe God will punish the wicked.
And you are right the translators will tell you the word everlasting comes from the word aionios; but it is not right.
If you look at the word goat in the Greek it is kid; which is a baby goat.
world].
Sheep Separated from Goats
Matthew 25 Wycliffe 32 and all folks shall be gathered before him, and he shall separate them atwain, as a shepherd separateth sheep from kids[and he shall part them atwain, as a shepherd parteth sheep from kids];
33 and he shall set the sheep on his right half, and the kids on the left half [and the kids forsooth on his left half].
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
According to the Bible God is going to burn a baby goat in everlasting fire. Literally or figuratively this makes no sense; the problem is the word everlasting is a bad translation.
Notice how I use God's Divine Word to prove my point. Your proof is from carnal man, his mistranslations and bias. There is plenty more for one thing the multiple scriptures that declare the ultimate salvation for all men.
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
Benoni said:
Ahh... more baseless assertions.
I've used God's Divine Word to make my point as well. Unfortunately for you and those like you, our English Bibles, by God's choice, are based on the Hebrew, Aramaic and Koine Greek languages. The translation of those languages require the linguistic skills of those who have taken the time to learn them. When you learn Greek come on back and we can talk.
So what you are really saying is you have too much pride to address these valid points in the verses I quoted because you are a scholar of language. This is the point language is only part of the issue when it comes to scriptural truth. If you are closed minded there is no way you can truly come to understanding.
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, it is the honor of kings to search out a matter.
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, it is the honor of kings to search out a matter.
Nomad said:
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