'Death is swallowed up in victory' -When?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

GerhardEbersoehn

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2014
6,277
571
113
Johannesburg
www.biblestudents.co.za
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Hello @Davy,

I do not doubt that there will be a resurrection of the dead as described in John 5:28-29.

'Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming,
in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.'

(John 5:28-29)

* However this is a resurrection to judgement, when those who will be judged, will be judged according to their works, as described in Romans chapter two: so this does not include those who have been saved by grace.

'For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's
at His coming.'

(1 Corinthians 15:22-23)

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

The distinction HERE is not one of or in time but of and in "order" or rank, unmistakable.
 

Earburner

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2019
6,517
1,543
113
74
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's
at His coming.'

(1 Corinthians 15:22-23)
Yes!
And this is "the order" in how everyone shall be resurrected (a then b):
2 Thes. 1[10] When he shall come
(a)
to be glorified in his saints,
(b) and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
 

charity

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2017
3,234
3,192
113
75
UK
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Nothing, nothing in this life could give me greater pleasure, ma'm, John 5:28,29 Romans 3:8b Mark 12:26,27 Luke 20:37,38 1Corinthians 15:20-26.

Then 15:51-57 = 1Thessalonians 4:14-17. "COMFORT one another with these words" 2Thessalonians 2 especially verse 8,12 in contrast with 14-17. Don't cause anxiety for the resurrection of ALL shall be the END of ALL things and of ALL the living of before, while the Beginning of Christ's ETERNAL Rule; it will not be the beginning of 1000 years where the saved, of all people, will summons their Saviour to face their scrutiny of his salvation. What blasphemy! Nevertheless it is the one or the other, the SDA concoction.

But what about your own post? 'But this I confess unto thee,
that after the way which they call heresy,
so worship I the God of my fathers,
believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
And have hope toward God,
which they (Paul's accusers of his own countrymen) themselves also allow,
that there shall be a resurrection of the dead,
both of the just and unjust'.

(Act 24:14)
Thank you, @GerhardEbersoehn,

You have given these verses at my request, in defence of your belief that there will be just one resurrection:-

John 5:28,29 - 'all who are in there graves' - 'they that have done good', and, 'they that have done evil'.
Acts 24:14 - 'a resurrection both of the just and of the unjust'.
Romans 3:8b - 'whose damnation is just'.
Mark 12:26,27 - 'He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living'
Luke 20:37, 38 - .. .. .. .. .. ..
1 Corinthians 15:20-26. 'afterwards they that are Christ's at His coming.'
1 Corinthians 15:51-57 '
the dead shall be raised incorruptible'.=
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. '
the dead in Christ shall rise first' - 'we that are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them'

*
Gerhard, do you not see a difference between the description of the resurrection described in John 5:28-29 with that of 1 Corinthians 15:20-26 & 51-57, and that of 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17? Also who they were for?

* Also, what about the two resurrections which take place, one before and one after the 1000 years? (20:5-6)

'And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them,
..and judgment was given unto them:
.... and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded
...... for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,
........ and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,
.......... neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;
............ and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again
.. until the thousand years were finished.
.... This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:

.. on such the second death hath no power,
.... but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,
...... and shall reign with Him a thousand years.'

* You may be right that there is just ONE RESURRECTION covering all mankind whether saved or unsaved, just or unjust: but I see more described in Scripture.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our Lord and Head.
Chris
 
Last edited:

charity

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2017
3,234
3,192
113
75
UK
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Yes!
And this is "the order" in how everyone shall be resurrected (a then b):
2 Thes. 1[10] When he shall come
(a)
to be glorified in his saints,
(b) and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Hello @Earburner,

I am sorry, but yet again, as with GerhardEbersoehn, I have to ask you to please explain further.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

Earburner

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2019
6,517
1,543
113
74
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
"Why is it people keep asking me questions that has nothing to do with the post, "Death swallowed up in victory when?"
Since you did ask:
Why is it people keep asking?

Its because we know that the JW-system form of belief, denies that Christ was pre-incarnate, before the foundation of the world. And numerous scriptural accounts have been shown to you, that proves that is so, but you choose to disregard it.

Now, as to you personally, we are hoping and praying that God will rescue you from the grips of that devish scheme, because through the JW form of belief/denial, is that spirit of antichrist revealed!
2 John 1[7] For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
John 1:1-5
 

Earburner

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2019
6,517
1,543
113
74
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hello @Earburner,

I am sorry, but yet again, as with GerhardEbersoehn, I have to ask you to please explain further.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
Key word: "when" is used twice, concerning the Lords return. That of the wicked and that of the saved.

In the context of that scripture, 2 Thessalonians 1, there are three events that take place simultaneously, unto the Lords visible and fiery return, but are "in order".
They are:
1. The living wicked unsaved are destroyed.

2. The dead in Christ are resurrected.

3. We who are alive and remain, are transformed, and caught up to meet them and the Lord in the air.
 

charity

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2017
3,234
3,192
113
75
UK
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
Key word: "when" is used twice, concerning the Lords return. That of the wicked and that of the saved.

In the context of that scripture, 2 Thessalonians 1, there are three events that take place simultaneously, unto the Lords visible and fiery return, but are "in order".
They are:
1. The living wicked unsaved are destroyed.

2. The dead in Christ are resurrected.

3. We who are alive and remain, are transformed, and caught up to meet them and the Lord in the air.
'And to you who are troubled rest with us,
when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
.. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,
.... and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
...... Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction
........ from the presence of the Lord,
.......... and from the glory of His power;

When He shall come to be glorified in His saints,
.. and to be admired in all them that believe
.... (because our testimony among you was believed)
...... in that day.

(2 Thessalonians 1:7-10)

Hello @Earburner,

Thank you so much for your response, for I now do see, and understand.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

Earburner

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2019
6,517
1,543
113
74
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
'And to you who are troubled rest with us,
when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
.. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,
.... and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
...... Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction
........ from the presence of the Lord,
.......... and from the glory of His power;

When He shall come to be glorified in His saints,
.. and to be admired in all them that believe
.... (because our testimony among you was believed)
...... in that day.

(2 Thessalonians 1:7-10)

Hello @Earburner,

Thank you so much for your response, for I now do see, and understand.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris
Amen "Sis"- Praise God!
 

GerhardEbersoehn

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2014
6,277
571
113
Johannesburg
www.biblestudents.co.za
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Hello @GerhardEbersoehn,

I'm sorry, I don't understand. Would you please explain what you mean a little more.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris


KJV 1Corinthians 15:22,23
The Order of Resurrection [Yes, this is the heading in the KJV. All in red, mine.]
"20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and is become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man (Adam) came death, by man (Jesus) came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: the Man Christ the Firstfruits; after Him they that are Christ's (redeemed) at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he (the Man Jesus) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power (to The Man Christ). 25For he (Christ) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he (even the Father) hath put all things under his (Jesus') feet. But when he (even the Father) saith, All things are put under him (Jesus Christ), it is manifest that he (even the Father) is excepted, which did put all things under him (The Man Jesus the Christ of God). 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him (The Man Jesus the Christ of God), then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him (even the Father) that put all things under him (The Man Jesus the Christ of God), that God may be all in all."

The distinction HERE is not one of or in time
22 "because as in Adam
(who by merit of sin was the first to die,
yet by merit of grace did not then, die),
"even so in Christ who is the Firstfruits
"all of them that slept (had died) in Christ
"and are the next-to-Christ firstfruits of the Resurrection from the dead,
"(being heirs) in Christ and will be given the Kingdom of God"
at Jesus' Coming.
22 "For as in Adam all (those that sinned), die,
"even so in Christ (the same) shall
"(all) be made alive at His Coming"
either as saved or lost.

"Then afterward, they (the third in rank:
"we which are alive at the Coming of the Lord,
"shall not prevent (preceed) them which are asleep"-- the runners-up first in rank.
"Then they (we) the third in rank at Christ's coming,
"will, at the same time of the only resurrection of "ALL", at Jesus' Coming Again,
"have the kingdom of God delivered up to them (us)
"together with all the saved, and at once.
 
Last edited:

GerhardEbersoehn

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2014
6,277
571
113
Johannesburg
www.biblestudents.co.za
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
'And to you who are troubled rest with us,
when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
.. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,
.... and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
...... Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction
........ from the presence of the Lord,
.......... and from the glory of His power;

When He shall come to be glorified in His saints,
.. and to be admired in all them that believe
.... (because our testimony among you was believed)
...... in that day.

(2 Thessalonians 1:7-10)

Hello @Earburner,

Thank you so much for your response, for I now do see, and understand.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Please send your post to Barney Bright as well? It's a wonderful proof-text of Jesus' Divinity.
 

GerhardEbersoehn

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2014
6,277
571
113
Johannesburg
www.biblestudents.co.za
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Thank you, @GerhardEbersoehn,

You have given these verses at my request, in defence of your belief that there will be just one resurrection:-

John 5:28,29 - 'all who are in there graves' - 'they that have done good', and, 'they that have done evil'.
Acts 24:14 - 'a resurrection both of the just and of the unjust'.
Romans 3:8b - 'whose damnation is just'.
Mark 12:26,27 - 'He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living'
Luke 20:37, 38 - .. .. .. .. .. ..
1 Corinthians 15:20-26. 'afterwards they that are Christ's at His coming.'
1 Corinthians 15:51-57 '
the dead shall be raised incorruptible'.=
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. '
the dead in Christ shall rise first' - 'we that are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them'

*
Gerhard, do you not see a difference between the description of the resurrection described in John 5:28-29 with that of 1 Corinthians 15:20-26 & 51-57, and that of 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17? Also who they were for?

* Also, what about the two resurrections which take place, one before and one after the 1000 years? (20:5-6)

'And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them,
..and judgment was given unto them:
.... and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded
...... for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,
........ and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,
.......... neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;
............ and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again
.. until the thousand years were finished.
.... This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:

.. on such the second death hath no power,
.... but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,
...... and shall reign with Him a thousand years.'

* You may be right that there is just ONE RESURRECTION covering all mankind whether saved or unsaved, just or unjust: but I see more described in Scripture.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our Lord and Head.
Chris

Thank you, Chris. Libraries full have been written on the Scriptures you present here. Shucks, what shall I say?!

I grew up a SDA; they believe <<the two resurrections which take place, one before and one after the 1000 years>>. I believe God through the Scriptures (and as Luther said a grain of common sense) changed my belief to that of Amillennialism - 'the 1000 years' are not, it is the Christian era. And so .... wait, I'll rather look up one very old file which I have not changed for all these years ... I'll edit it into this post, DV.

A.
Revelation, chapter 14
How I understand it in the light of Christian history, fulfilled


The Resurrection of Christ from the dead:

1: And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the Mount Zion,

Ephesians 1
19: That ye may know what is the exceeding greatness of God’s Power … according to the operation of the Might of his Strength 20: which He wrought in Christ raising Him from the dead, seating Him at his own right hand in heavenly exaltation 21: far above all principality and power and might and dominion and every name that is named not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave Him to be the Head over all things to the Church 23: which is His Body, the Fullness of Him that filleth all in all.

and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's Name written in their foreheads.

Matthew 27
51: And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52: And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53: and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Ephesians 4
7: Unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8: Wherefore He saith, When He ascended up on high He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9: Now that He ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? [Matthew 12:40] 10: He that descended is the Same that ascended up far above all heavens, that He might fill all things.”

2: And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Exodus 15
1: Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, … I will sing unto the LORD for He hath triumphed gloriously. … 2: The LORD is My Strength and Song and He is become my salvation: He is my God, and I will prepare Him an habitation; my Father God, and I will exalt Him. 3: The LORD is a Man of War the LORD is his Name … 6: Thy Right Hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power; Thy Right Hand O LORD … 7: in the greatness of Thine Excellency. … 13: Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people Thou hast redeemed: Thou hast guided them in thy Strength unto thy Holy Habitation. … 16: O LORD … the People which Thou hast purchased 17: thou shalt bring in, and plant them in the mountain of thine Inheritance, in the Place, O LORD, which thou has made for Thee to dwell in, The Sanctuary, O LORD thy hands, have established: The LORD; He shall reign for ever and ever.

4: These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5: And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

The Apostles and their Age:

6: And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7: Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Hebrews
3,14: For we are made partakers of Christ … while it is said, Today if ye hear his Voice, harden not your hearts as in the provocation.

4,2: For unto us was the Gospel preached as well as unto them

The Reformation and Protestant Age:

8: And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

The End-time beginning:

9: And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10: The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The End-time to the end:

12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13: And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

The Second Coming of Christ:

14: And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud One sat like unto the Son of Man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15: And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for Thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

“The resurrection of LIFE”:

16: And He that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was REAPED. (The righteous, 'GRAIN' Raised, Christ having been the "First Sheaf".)

“The resurrection of condemnation”:

17: And another angel came out of the TEMPLE which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18: And another angel came out from the ALTAR, which had power over FIRE; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the _VINE_ of the earth; for her _GRAPES_ are fully ripe.
19: And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the WRATH of God:

The Judgment

20: And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
 
Last edited:

charity

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2017
3,234
3,192
113
75
UK
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
KJV 1Corinthians 15:22,23
The Order of Resurrection [Yes, this is the heading in the KJV. All in red,mine.]
"20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and is become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man (Adam) came death, by man (Jesus) came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: the Man Christ the Firstfruits; after Him they that are Christ's (redeemed) at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he (the Man Jesus) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power (to The Man Christ). 25For he (Christ) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he (even the Father) hath put all things under his (Jesus') feet. But when he (even the Father) saith, All things are put under him (Jesus Christ), it is manifest that he (even the Father) is excepted, which did put all things under him (The Man Jesus the Christ of God). 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him (The Man Jesus the Christ of God), then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him (even the Father) that put all things under him (The Man Jesus the Christ of God), that God may be all in all."

The distinction HERE is not one of or in time
22 "because as in Adam
(who by merit of sin was the first to die,
yet by merit of grace did not then, die),
"even so in Christ who is the Firstfruits
"all of them that slept (had died) in Christ
"and are the next-to-Christ firstfruits of the Resurrection from the dead,
"(being heirs) in Christ and will be given the Kingdom of God"
at Jesus' Coming.
22 "For as in Adam all (those that sinned), die,
"even so in Christ (the same) shall
"(all) be made alive at His Coming"
either as saved or lost.

"Then afterward, they (the third in rank:
"we which are alive at the Coming of the Lord,
"shall not prevent (preceed) them which are asleep"-- the runners-up first in rank.
"Then they (we) the third in rank at Christ's coming,
"will, at the same time of the only resurrection of "ALL", at Jesus' Coming Again,
"have the kingdom of God delivered up to them (us)
"together with all the saved, and at once.
'For as in Adam all die,
even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.'

(1 Corinthians 15:22-23)

Hello @GerhardEbersoehn,

Thank you so much for this further explanation. I am sorry it was made necessary by my failure to understand your meaning. I do see now what you are saying, and I thank you for the portrayal of the Scriptures you have given, for it has helped me to understand what you meant by your words in reply#501:- ('The distinction HERE is not one of or in time but of and in "order" or rank, unmistakable..' ). However I do have problems with it.

'For as in Adam all die,
even so in Christ shall all be made alive.'

* Here the Lord's resurrection is viewed in regard to the human race, with Adam and Christ as the Heads of the race. With life and death being the subject. 'In Adam' all die. 'In Christ' all shall be made alive. Though ALL through birth are 'in Adam' as the Head of the human race, therefore all die: ALL who are 'in Christ', shall be made alive. Though not ALL are 'in Christ' are they? The believer is identified with Christ, and it is God Who has placed him 'in Christ' (1 Corinthians 1:30). So, in 1 Corinthians 15:23, it is 'they that are Christs' (that will be resurrected) 'at His coming', not all men in general, in this context.

* Ultimately all will be raised but not all will live. For example, in regard to the white throne judgement of Revelation 20, although the dead are referred to as 'standing' before God for judgement, they are never referred to as being 'alive' (Revelation 20:12-14).

I have to leave it here, Gerhard,
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,651
2,519
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Theories?? Here are some facts:
Our mortal bodies are earthly because they consist of the elements of the earth, beginning with Oxygen for our blood, so that our mortal flesh will stay alive. Leviticus 17:11 (KJV).

Today, we all now know, what the "breath of life" is, when Moses DIDN'T!!
But of course, if you want to keep the "religious spin" going on that, about an "eternal soul", then be my guest.

When Jesus physically resurrected into His NEW Immortal and physical heavenly body, there WAS NO BLOOD in Him!! It was ALL SHED on to the earth, as well as on the Cross and Himself.
So then, I ask you again, if then no Blood was in His veins, by what manifestation caused Him to be Resurrected into NEW Life, and be forever sustained by it?
Ans. The Holy Spirit of God.

What Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 that I quoted is not a religious spin. What you say is the attempt at a religious spin with denying what Paul taught. The resurrection is to a "spiritual body", the "image of the heavenly", a "quickening spirit", just as Paul said.

1 Cor 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

KJV
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,651
2,519
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hello @Davy,

I do not doubt that there will be a resurrection of the dead as described in John 5:28-29.

'Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming,
in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.'

(John 5:28-29)

* However this is a resurrection to judgement, when those who will be judged, will be judged according to their works, as described in Romans chapter two: so this does not include those who have been saved by grace.

I understand what your saying, but that's merely a pop tradition of men you're stating, and not what the actual John 5:28-29 Scripture is showing. It is showing the wicked dead are raised on the same day as that "resurrection of life" when Jesus comes.
 

Earburner

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2019
6,517
1,543
113
74
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
'For as in Adam all die,
even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.'

(1 Corinthians 15:22-23)

Hello @GerhardEbersoehn,

Thank you so much for this further explanation. I am sorry it was made necessary by my failure to understand your meaning. I do see now what you are saying, and I thank you for the portrayal of the Scriptures you have given, for it has helped me to understand what you meant by your words in reply#501:- ('The distinction HERE is not one of or in time but of and in "order" or rank, unmistakable..' ). However I do have problems with it.

'For as in Adam all die,
even so in Christ shall all be made alive.'

* Here the Lord's resurrection is viewed in regard to the human race, with Adam and Christ as the Heads of the race. With life and death being the subject. 'In Adam' all die. 'In Christ' all shall be made alive. Though ALL through birth are 'in Adam' as the Head of the human race, therefore all die: ALL who are 'in Christ', shall be made alive. Though not ALL are 'in Christ' are they? The believer is identified with Christ, and it is God Who has placed him 'in Christ' (1 Corinthians 1:30). So, in 1 Corinthians 15:23, it is 'they that are Christs' (that will be resurrected) 'at His coming', not all men in general, in this context.

* Ultimately all will be raised but not all will live. For example, in regard to the white throne judgement of Revelation 20, although the dead are referred to as 'standing' before God for judgement, they are never referred to as being 'alive' (Revelation 20:12-14).

I have to leave it here, Gerhard,
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
With God the Father, He has ordained only TWO judgments for all.
1. The judgment of eternal death through Adam.
2. The judment of Eternal Life through Christ.
I think that we can all understand the Great White Throne Jugment (GWT) better, when we FULLY understand the spiritual reality of how it is that we Christians HAVE ALREADY appeared before the Judgement Seat of Christ (JSoC) THROUGH FAITH.

The JSoC- 2 Cor. 5[9] Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
[10] For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

In scripture, the JSoC is HERE in John 3[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

If a person refuses to appear (come to Christ now) they remain to be "condemned already", which is that 1st judgment of God through Adam of "thou shalt surely die".

Iows, until one comes to Christ (appear before the JSoC) they are under condemnation already, and should they die, they ARE LOST forever, and therefore have "already" appeared permanently under the GWTJ, which is to say- without Christ!!

As for the JSoC, no one who is of faith in Christ (came to His seat), shall ever be condemned/judged in the future, after our resurrection!!!
God's form of judgment to usward is chastisement now, WHILE WE ARE IN THIS BODY OF mortal flesh!
Born again Christians will never ever be condemned again! So says John 3:18 and
 

Earburner

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2019
6,517
1,543
113
74
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
^ and 1 John 5[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
 

Earburner

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2019
6,517
1,543
113
74
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So then, do any of us who are Born again literally go and appear before the JSoC?
No! Its all accomplished spiritually, through faith in Jesus, or the lack thereof.
So, for all who have NOT appeared before Christ through faith, their judgment of death remains against them, symbolically being the GWT. In essence they are ALWAYS before the GWT, until they do appear before the JSoC.
And if they do not, then there is NO Gift of eternal life for them, no matter how many "good works" they performed!!
Why?
Ans. Romans 8:8-9
Why?
Ans. John 3:18