'Death is swallowed up in victory' -When?

[Earburner]

What Paul taught about the resurrection body in 1 Corinthians 15:50 is only a START! I haven't even gotten to the part where Paul also showed the resurrection is the "image of the heavenly" right before that 50th verse!

1 Cor 15:49-50
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

And then there's Paul's declaration in 1 Corinthians 15 that the resurrection body is a "spiritual body" that goes with those 49th & 50th verses.

1 Cor 15:42-49
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, 'The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.'
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.


And then there's the REAL KICKER, where Paul declares within this context that "the second man is the Lord from heaven", pointing to Christ's resurrection body!

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
KJV

I mean, your theories just don't stand a chance when it comes to what Apostle Paul actually taught about the resurrection body.

Theories?? Here are some facts:
Our mortal bodies are earthly because they consist of the elements of the earth, beginning with Oxygen for our blood, so that our mortal flesh will stay alive. Leviticus 17:11 (KJV).

Today, we all now know, what the "breath of life" is, when Moses DIDN'T!!
But of course, if you want to keep the "religious spin" going on that, about an "eternal soul", then be my guest.

When Jesus physically resurrected into His NEW Immortal and physical heavenly body, there WAS NO BLOOD in Him!! It was ALL SHED on to the earth, as well as on the Cross and Himself.
So then, I ask you again, if then no Blood was in His veins, by what manifestation caused Him to be Resurrected into NEW Life, and be forever sustained by it?
Ans. The Holy Spirit of God.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

As I said I believe what's written down, and what's written down in the scriptures is that God sent his, "Only Begotten Son" to the world, or the scriptures have written down, "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God." The scriptures nowhere say, "God the Son." In all the manuscripts which go back thousands of years, nowhere when speaking of Jesus Christ do these manuscripts invert the phrase, "Son of God" to "God the Son." I'm not going to agree with inverting the phrase, "Son of God" to "God the Son." I honestly believe people to be changing Scripture when they do that and it seems to me they're doing it to try to prove their belief in the Trinity.

Ag man, my Bible has nothing else to say other than that Jesus is "God the Son". The problem is not the Bible saying different things, but the different readers, and I do not hesitate to tell you that you cannot read it, chum! No, WILL NOT read it with a teachable spirit.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

'So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption,
and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,
Death is swallowed up in victory.'
(1 Corinthians 15:54)

Hello @Davy,

My chief reason for starting this thread was to establish the truth expressed in 1 Corinthians 15:54, as to when death is swallowed up in victory. Which is not at death as many suppose, but at the Resurrection.

* There is more than one resurrection spoken of in Scripture, two are spoken of in relation to the beginning and end of the 1000 year reign, but they are but two, I believe that the Scriptures speak of more, as I have said previously.

* The event recorded in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, concern 'the dead in Christ' and 'those that are alive and remain', there is no mention of the unbelieving dead being raised on that occasion.

'And this is the will of Him that sent Me,
that every one which seeth the Son,
and believeth on Him,
may have everlasting life:
and I will raise him up at the last day.'
(John 6:40)

* John 5:28-29 do not give an indication of when the resurrection referred to will take place,

'Marvel not at this:
for the hour is coming,
in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.'
(John 5:28)

'And have hope toward God,
which they themselves also allow,
that there shall be a resurrection of the dead,
both of the just and unjust.'
(Act 24:15)

'In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men
by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.'
(Rom 2:16 + Romans chapter 2 )

* Where we are not told 'when' a resurrection will occur: or when the time is indicated by the words, 'the hour', or 'the last day', or 'in the day', which refer to an indeterminate period of time; we cannot know for certain when, within that period of time, the resurrection referred to will occur.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Jesus clearly said the - one and only ever general - resurrection (or resurrection of all the dead lost and saved) will be simultaneous with 'His Second Coming'. This is basic as well as absolute Christian doctrine and teaching. But the Seventh day Adventists started the fallacy of a supposed 'first resurrection' in Thessalonians to support their monstrous heresy of a 1000 years 'Investigative Judgement' between the Second and supposed THIRD return to this world.

But there is no 'first resurrection' in Thessalonians. It speaks of the living saved at Jesus' Coming who will not meet the Lord before the dead saints who will have to be raised first in order to in the last day or day of Jesus Coming, to TOGETHER WITH the living saints, in one crowd OF THE LORD'S HOSTS as "in a CLOUD", to "go up to meet the Lord". -- To meet "the LORD in the air"-- it's not the saints who are in the air. The saved "go up" from all over and across the world to enter the New Jerusalem that descended upon the earth (says Revelation). On their way they will see the carcasses of the wicked slain by the brightness of Jesus' coming, lying beside the way (Isaiah).

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

I'm speaking of the "resurrection of damnation" which is about the raising of the wicked dead on the day of Christ's return along with the "resurrection of life". This per John 5:28-29

AMEN
Thank you for confessing God's truth.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

The Old Testament does not give that detail about the resurrection body that Apostle Paul gave in 1 Corinthians 15. Nowhere does the Old Testament declare the resurrection is to a "spiritual body". Yet in the New Testament Apostle Paul does declare this "spiritual body". Thus there IS a difference when reading the Old Testament vs. the New Testament.

I admit. The difference IS there and is there because of the Incarnation of God the Son. Thank you, my voice joins yours in confession and praise to the Lord.

 

[Earburner]

Jesus clearly said the - one and only ever general - resurrection (or resurrection of all the dead lost and saved) will be simultaneous with 'His Second Coming'. This is basic as well as absolute Christian doctrine and teaching. But the Seventh day Adventists started the fallacy of a supposed 'first resurrection' in Thessalonians to support their monstrous heresy of a 1000 years 'Investigative Judgement' between the Second and supposed THIRD return to this world.

Amen GE, I do AGREE with you on that!
As to to the remainder of your post, I understand what you trying to say, and you will, but only WHEN you comprehend who, and not what the New Jerusalem is.

 

[Earburner]

I admit. The difference IS there and is there because of the Incarnation of God the Son. Thank you, my voice joins yours in confession and praise to the Lord.

Amen!! The Jewish understanding then, under the OC, was "allowed" by them to be understood, but there is no OT scripture from God about it.
Therefore the only Authority we have, is the testimony of the Lord Jesus Himself, the eyewitness accounts of the disciples, and what the Holy Spirit reveals in the Epistles.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Then you disagree with the pre-incarnate Christ, speaking of Himself in the book of
Proverbs 8:22-31 (KJV)

Why is it people keep asking me questions that has nothing to do with the post, "Death swallowed up in victory when?"

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Ag man, my Bible has nothing else to say other than that Jesus is "God the Son". The problem is not the Bible saying different things, but the different readers, and I do not hesitate to tell you that you cannot read it, chum! No, WILL NOT read it with a teachable spirit.

So you say, who like I said is only an imperfect person like anyone else. I'm only going to see you and anyone else is, as imperfect persons.

 

[charity]

Hi Charity,
Could you please reference that which the Jews "allow" in their understanding, of a "resurrection of just and unjust" in the OT?
I can't seem to find it
Thanks, EB

Hi @Earburner.

The reference that you want is Acts 24:14-15,

'But this I confess unto thee,
that after the way which they call heresy,
so worship I the God of my fathers,
believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
And have hope toward God,
which they (Paul's accusers - of his own countrymen) themselves also allow,
that there shall be a resurrection of the dead,
both of the just and unjust'.
(Act 24:14)

* This is what Paul said, @Earburner, concerning his own countrymen, and what they believed, I do not know of a reference in the Old Testament concerning this, but it is what Martha also believed, as expressed in John 11:24:- 'Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.'

Within the love of Christ our Saviour
our Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

So you say, who like I said is only an imperfect person like anyone else. I'm only going to see you and anyone else is, as imperfect persons.

No harm now nor later I dare say whatever. I am not going on with this stupid insipid fruitless conversation with you.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Amen!! The Jewish understanding then, under the OC, was "allowed" by them to be understood, but there is no OT scripture from God about it.
Therefore the only Authority we have, is the testimony of the Lord Jesus Himself, the eyewitness accounts of the disciples, and what the Holy Spirit reveals in the Epistles.

I distance myself from you as far as possible in anything you say, imposter!

 

[charity]

Jesus clearly said the - one and only ever general - resurrection (or resurrection of all the dead lost and saved) will be simultaneous with 'His Second Coming'. This is basic as well as absolute Christian doctrine and teaching. But the Seventh day Adventists started the fallacy of a supposed 'first resurrection' in Thessalonians to support their monstrous heresy of a 1000 years 'Investigative Judgement' between the Second and supposed THIRD return to this world.

But there is no 'first resurrection' in Thessalonians. It speaks of the living saved at Jesus' Coming who will not meet the Lord before the dead saints who will have to be raised first in order to in the last day or day of Jesus Coming, to TOGETHER WITH the living saints, in one crowd OF THE LORD'S HOSTS as "in a CLOUD", to "go up to meet the Lord". -- To meet "the LORD in the air"-- it's not the saints who are in the air. The saved "go up" from all over and across the world to enter the New Jerusalem that descended upon the earth (says Revelation). On their way they will see the carcasses of the wicked slain by the brightness of Jesus' coming, lying beside the way (Isaiah).

Hello @GerhardEbersoehn,

So, you believe that there will be just one resurrection of the dead, which includes both those who have been saved by God's grace, through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and those who are unsaved? Believer and unbeliever? Am I right? If so, perhaps you would kindly supply me with the scriptural references which substantiate that, that I may understand why you believe this to be so.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Amen GE, I do AGREE with you on that!
As to to the remainder of your post, I understand what you trying to say, and you will, but only WHEN you comprehend who, and not what the New Jerusalem is.

You then, just go to the New Jerusalem's alternative!

 

[charity]

Yes, I understand that. No problem.
Like I said in my last post, I'm speaking of the "resurrection of damnation" which is about the raising of the wicked dead on the day of Christ's return along with the "resurrection of life". This per John 5:28-29.

That's right, but that doesn't erase what our Lord Jesus said in John 5:28-29 that shows there will be a "resurrection of damnation" on the day of His coming also. We are not to pick'n'choose Scripture, accepting one and not another. Often The Gospel Books do not mention all events that are to take place on the day of Christ's coming. That's why it's obvious He gave us His Revelation through His servant John.

Well, yes it does. The "for the hour is coming" phrase is simply about that future day, the very point in time when, "all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, And shall come forth". He is emphatically speaking of the last day of this world at His 2nd coming. That is when the dead will come forth to their respective resurrection. Apostle Paul had this hope of both resurrections also as you showed in Acts 24:15..

No, you cannot change the hour that our Lord Jesus gave for both resurrection types on the day of His 2nd coming.

1 Thess 4:16-17
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

I know that does not mention the dead of the "resurrection of damnation". I think I made that clear. But in the John 5:28-29 version, Jesus did mention the "resurrection of damnation" coming forth then, and He made it clear.

In the following John 5 Scripture, our Lord Jesus gave a comparison between the dead who 'hear' His voice vs. the event when all in the graves shall hear His voice and come forth...

John 5:24-29
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

That above event Jesus was speaking of the resurrection that happened on the day of His crucifixion, no doubt from His going to the "spirits in prisons" and preaching The Gospel to them, and leading those who would 'hear' out of the heavenly prison (1 Peter 3 & 4; Isaiah 42:7). That "and now is" is a time marker for His day, not the last day He will cover here next.

26 For as the Father hath life in Himself; so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself;
27 And hath given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

That "hour is coming" above in the 28-29 verses is different, because it includes "all that are in the graves" coming forth, meaning the wicked dead also. Jesus is specific too, because He declared those coming forth then include those of the "resurrection of damnation".

So I really don't understand why brethren don't recognize that John 5:28-29 event as written, as our Lord Jesus even gave us a contrast right there between it on the last day and the resurrection that occurred on the day of His crucifixion.

Hello @Davy,

I do not doubt that there will be a resurrection of the dead as described in John 5:28-29.

'Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming,
in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.'
(John 5:28-29)

* However this is a resurrection to judgement, when those who will be judged, will be judged according to their works, as described in Romans chapter two: so this does not include those who have been saved by grace.

'For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's
at His coming.'
(1 Corinthians 15:22-23)

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[mjrhealth]

Ag man, my Bible has nothing else to say other than that Jesus is "God the Son". The problem is not the Bible saying different things, but the different readers, and I do not hesitate to tell you that you cannot read it, chum! No, WILL NOT read it with a teachable spirit.

Yes yours certainly isnt the right spirit, as you say, unteachable.

 

[charity]

@GerhardEbersoehn
@mjrhealth

Hello there,

With respect, there is only One Who can make righteous judgements concerning the heart of man, and that is God Himself, in Christ Jesus our Lord. Only He knows who has an 'unteachable spirit', and can in His mercy alter that.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Hello @GerhardEbersoehn,

So, you believe that there will be just one resurrection of the dead, which includes both those who have been saved by God's grace, through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and those who are unsaved? Believer and unbeliever? Am I right? If so, perhaps you would kindly supply me with the scriptural references which substantiate that, that I may understand why you believe this to be so.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Nothing, nothing in this life could give me greater pleasure, ma'm, John 5:28,29 Romans 3:8b Mark 12:26,27 Luke 20:37,38 1Corinthians 15:20-26.

Then 15:51-57 = 1Thessalonians 4:14-17. "COMFORT one another with these words" 2Thessalonians 2 especially verse 8,12 in contrast with 14-17. Don't cause anxiety for the resurrection of ALL shall be the END of ALL things and of ALL the living of before, while the Beginning of Christ's ETERNAL Rule; it will not be the beginning of 1000 years where the saved, of all people, will summons their Saviour to face their scrutiny of his salvation. What blasphemy! Nevertheless it is the one or the other, the SDA concoction.

But what about your own post? 'But this I confess unto thee,
that after the way which they call heresy,
so worship I the God of my fathers,
believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
And have hope toward God,
which they (Paul's accusers of his own countrymen) themselves also allow,
that there shall be a resurrection of the dead,
both of the just and unjust'.
(Act 24:14)

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Hello there,

With respect, there is only One Who can make righteous judgements concerning the heart of man, and that is God Himself, in Christ Jesus our Lord. Only He knows who has an 'unteachable spirit', and can in His mercy alter that.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Sure. And certainly I was wrong as always I shall stay wrong. God be merciful to me ... your sinner child, my God and Father merciful

 

[mjrhealth]

@GerhardEbersoehn
@mjrhealth

Hello there,

With respect, there is only One Who can make righteous judgements concerning the heart of man, and that is God Himself, in Christ Jesus our Lord. Only He knows who has an 'unteachable spirit', and can in His mercy alter that.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Yes and HE weeps for men today, those who call themselves "christian" just as He did for Israel, they are missing there visitation.