Grace is NOT unmerited favor!

[CharismaticLady]

So, are you saying that John 5:18 doesn't show clearly that Jesus was and is equal with the Father?

Because if He did not violate the sabbath according to John 5:18, it can be argued that He also didn't say that God was His Father; making Himself equal with God.

And Jesus is our High Priest throughout eternity.

Even if He wasn't, He still came not after the law of a carnal commandment but after the power of an endless life (Hebrews 7:16).

And therefore violating the letter would not in effect make Him a sinner.

But since the priesthood was in fact changed at the coming of Christ, the law also was changed so that Jesus' violation of the letter of the sabbath day laws did not amount to sinning.

Could Jesus be everywhere at once? Did He have all knowledge, or just what the Father told Him?

The part of God that was the Word, emptied himself in order to be able to die. Then after His resurrection, He asked the Father to restore the glory He had before. So without His glory the Father was greater.

Good night, brother.

 

[justbyfaith]

Could Jesus be everywhere at once? Did He have all knowledge, or just what the Father told Him.

The part of God that was the Word, emptied himself in order to be able to die. Then after His resurrection, He asked the Father to restore the glory He had before. So without His glory the Father was greater.

Good night, brother.

The Father was greater concerning Jesus' humanity. Concerning Jesus' Deity, He was and is equal to the Father; even as is proclaimed by John 5:18.

The infinite Father (who is the eternal Spirit; John 4:23-24, Hebrews 9:14) became condensed into human form in the incarnation of Jesus Christ (see John 3:34).

In this, the 1st Person of the Trinity stayed behind inhabiting eternity (Isaiah 57:15) while also moving forward to become the 2nd Person of the Trinity; encapsulated by human flesh (1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).

Because it is in the nature of one who is eternal and infinite, that if they were to descend into becoming finite, they would also not cease to be infinite, dwelling in eternity and filling all things, outside of time. Because someone who fills eternity will not cease to fill eternity if they were to descend and become a Man; for that is the nature of eternity: that if someone fills it, they will always fill it; because eternity is not subject to time.

I don't know why I said all of that. Perhaps to say that Jesus' pre-incarnate form did indeed continue to be everywhere at once while the same Person was also condensed into the finite form of Jesus' human body.

Good night. I will see you in the morning very likely.

 

[mjrhealth]

So if one of your livestock fell in a pit, would you wait till Sunday to help it out?

Oh that bit that Jesus spoke to the pharisees.... how they would help the cow out of a pit but would not heal the sick on the Sabbath. Jesus did work, but they where not His works, the where the works of the father, one could take up a legal challenge in court over that.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The Father was greater concerning Jesus' humanity. Concerning Jesus' Deity, He was and is equal to the Father; even as is proclaimed by John 5:18.

The infinite Father (who is the eternal Spirit; John 4:23-24, Hebrews 9:14) became condensed into human form in the incarnation of Jesus Christ (see John 3:34).

In this, the 1st Person of the Trinity stayed behind inhabiting eternity (Isaiah 57:15) while also moving forward to become the 2nd Person of the Trinity; encapsulated by human flesh (1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).

Because it is in the nature of one who is eternal and infinite, that if they were to descend into becoming finite, they would also not cease to be infinite, dwelling in eternity and filling all things, outside of time. Because someone who fills eternity will not cease to fill eternity if they were to descend and become a Man; for that is the nature of eternity: that if someone fills it, they will always fill it; because eternity is not subject to time.

I don't know why I said all of that. Perhaps to say that Jesus' pre-incarnate form did indeed continue to be everywhere at once while the same Person was also condensed into the finite form of Jesus' human body.

Good night. I will see you in the morning very likely.

Hi J, Good afternoon. (I sleep in late so as to keep my immune system optimal.)

I liked all the verses you provided. Especially, John 3:34, For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.

Indeed, Jesus is still the Word. But He doesn't speak on His own authority, but by the Spirit of God.

I know He had to have the Spirit fall on Him at His baptism in order to do the miracles that followed His ministry, but even when He was 12 He baffled the Jews in the temple with His knowledge. Just like He remained sinless at that time because He was born out of the seed of the Father/Spirit, I still find it profound that when reading the scrolls, He had such perfect interpretation.

That verifies to me that there are two fillings of the Spirit, as Pentecostals teach. However, my thoughts on the particulars are different than theirs. The first is for sinlessness and (for us) the authorities of Mark 16:17-18, and the second is for power gifts for ministry 1 Corinthians 12:7-10.

I see it as thus:

First
Apostles: John 20
Followers: Acts 2

Second
Apostles: Acts 2
Followers: Acts 4

 

[Nancy]

Hello @CharismaticLady ,
I received my "The Mystery of Grace through Behold The Lamb Publications and have read 2 pages so far.
The changing of the wrong definition of Grace sure does bring about a lot of very dangerous implications! Such as the booklet says, it changes the whole doctrine of grace. How true also that as Satan cannot change God, he can and does change peoples image of God. Thank God the Truth will always stand firm . No matter if Satan can allow people to believe a lie, the truth is still there...
I need to take another look at Romans to understand what the author means by the "Old Testament saints ..."changed the Glory of the un-corruptible God..." I believe this is speaking of the gentile Church and not the OT saints...but, I will look into it.
Ty, the booklet is easy enough to understand and I saved the site to my favorites.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Hello @CharismaticLady ,
I received my "The Mystery of Grace through Behold The Lamb Publications and have read 2 pages so far.
The changing of the wrong definition of Grace sure does bring about a lot of very dangerous implications! Such as the booklet says, it changes the whole doctrine of grace. How true also that as Satan cannot change God, he can and does change peoples image of God. Thank God the Truth will always stand firm . No matter if Satan can allow people to believe a lie, the truth is still there...
I need to take another look at Romans to understand what the author means by the "Old Testament saints ..."changed the Glory of the un-corruptible God..." I believe this is speaking of the gentile Church and not the OT saints...but, I will look into it.
Ty, the booklet is easy enough to understand and I saved the site to my favorites.

The truth of the gospel is what Jesus accomplished to make sons and daughters of God. Doesn't it give you shivers to think about what the modern church believes? This is why my ministry is not to the unsaved world, but to the unsaved in the Church! We cannot bring people into this cesspool, but into the Truth. The Church today is Jude 1:4. It is turned the grace of God into licentiousness.

 

[Nancy]

The truth of the gospel is what Jesus accomplished to make sons and daughters of God. Doesn't it give you shivers to think about what the modern church believes? This is why my ministry is not to the unsaved world, but to the unsaved in the Church! We cannot bring people into this cesspool, but into the Truth. The Church today is Jude 1:4. It is turned the grace of God into licentiousness.

Okay, now that I see the scripture again in Jude...the connection is clearer.
Your ministry is IMO, even more important than the outreach to the lost as... if "Christians" can't get it together...they'll lead others over the cliff right with them!

"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"

 

[CharismaticLady]

Okay, now that I see the scripture again in Jude...the connection is clearer.
Your ministry is IMO, even more important than the outreach to the lost as... if "Christians" can't get it together...they'll lead others over the cliff right with them!

"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"

You are getting your head screwed on right so you can join me, sister!!!

If you have any questions you can PM me, or I can give you my phone number.

 

[Nancy]

You are getting your head screwed on right so you can join me, sister!!!

If you have any questions you can PM me, or I can give you my phone number.

Awesome, thank you...I will PM you when I have things wrapped up and can pose some good questions

 

[justbyfaith]

The only point that I would make here is that if we say that we do not have indwelling sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth isn't in us.

But since indwelling sin can be rendered dead, we don't have to anymore commit sin and it can even be true of us that we do not commit sin and cannot sin.

Alright, I suppose that I'm beating a dead horse...

 

[Mike Richardson]

I thought this was a thread about whether or not grace is defined as unmerited or not. On that premise I would like to add, though I am late to the party, that I have always felt a sense of uneasiness with that definition. Now I realize that it is a description rather than a definition. We are undeserving of anything we receive from the Lord. That said, in any passages relating to receiving grace there is always a prerequisite to being able to receive grace. Humility or humbleness.

James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
1Pet 5:5 … for “God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.”

In the OT we find that Noah found favor with God because he was just and he walked with God.
Ge 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. 9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

He found favor because he was seeking it by walking pleasing to God.

There are a few other passages referring to God pouring out His grace in response to those who qualify for it. Even in Ephesians 2:8 grace is conditional upon faith. No faith, no grace.

If you study the full gamete of the definitions of grace there are multiple definitions and meanings. Not one singular definition will work in every single scripture that uses the Greek Charis or derivative of it. The replacement word "favor" doesn't fit in every context of scripture which uses Grace for instance. I am still studying this word to try and fully understand it but I would say there is no other single word in scripture that carries so much depth and richness and power as the word grace.

By His Amazing Grace!
Mike

 

[CharismaticLady]

I thought this was a thread about whether or not grace is defined as unmerited or not. On that premise I would like to add, though I am late to the party, that I have always felt a sense of uneasiness with that definition. Now I realize that it is a description rather than a definition. We are undeserving of anything we receive from the Lord. That said, in any passages relating to receiving grace there is always a prerequisite to being able to receive grace. Humility or humbleness.

James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
1Pet 5:5 … for “God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.”

In the OT we find that Noah found favor with God because he was just and he walked with God.
Ge 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. 9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

He found favor because he was seeking it by walking pleasing to God.

There are a few other passages referring to God pouring out His grace in response to those who qualify for it. Even in Ephesians 2:8 grace is conditional upon faith. No faith, no grace.

If you study the full gamete of the definitions of grace there are multiple definitions and meanings. Not one singular definition will work in every single scripture that uses the Greek Charis or derivative of it. The replacement word "favor" doesn't fit in every context of scripture which uses Grace for instance. I am still studying this word to try and fully understand it but I would say there is no other single word in scripture that carries so much depth and richness and power as the word grace.

By His Amazing Grace!
Mike

Yes, the grace God shows an unbeliever is different from the power to not sin God gives to His child to be perfect, as He is perfect.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

The truth of the gospel is what Jesus accomplished to make sons and daughters of God. Doesn't it give you shivers to think about what the modern church believes? This is why my ministry is not to the unsaved world, but to the unsaved in the Church! We cannot bring people into this cesspool, but into the Truth. The Church today is Jude 1:4. It is turned the grace of God into licentiousness.

Let’s take an honest look at me and see if I am what you would consider to be a “ Cesspool” Dweller. I do not believe in Grace.I do not believe in “ Hyper Grace”. I believe in SUPER Hyper Grace.Every day I do what I want.Like last night, I got as drunk as I “wanted” to get ! Same as the night Before and the same as the night before that.Funny thing is though, I did not “ want” to get drunk.I did not “ want” to rape or kill anybody either ...had I “ wanted” to, I would have been just as guilty as anybody who actually did those things. I agree with Luther who maintained that even though I would rape and murder a thousand times a day , the Grace That abounds farther than Sin would have it covered ....or was that a lie?
Yes, I do what I want and know that I can’t be damned because the Blood Of Christ is adequate to pay for all of my sins, if I Rest in the Gospel Of 1Cor15:1-4. I can’t Sin and “ Get Away With It” However.If I am Foolish enough to try to take advantage of the Grace Of God, trying to turn God's Grace into a” license to Sin”, God will Chastise me BIG TIME.....He just might even convince me not to try such Foolish things again! That’s the way it works with God . Any Obedience that counts with God is the obedience spurred by Love.....that Love only comes from those that know how to Throw Off the Shackles Of The Law and know the Freedom Of Grace Plus Nothing for their Salvation.....That Grace and Rest and Total Forgiveness is out there for everybody.....all one has to do to “ cash in” on all of this good stuff is to do the Will Of God.....What is that Will? If you answered, “ Believe in the One He sent” ( pretty much akin to Believing in Paul’s Gospel Of Pure Grace That Saves) —- go to the head of the class !
Sometimes I just sit around and my mind wanders....I sit here and think , Wow I can do what I “ want” and won’t go to Hell .....Its a funny thing, this Christianity.....just when I discover I can do what I “ Desire” and not be damned.......God changes my “ Desires!” Darn the Bad Luck !
What do all you good people out there think about this?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Let’s take an honest look at me and see if I am what you would consider to be a “ Cesspool” Dweller. I do not believe in Grace.I do not believe in “ Hyper Grace”. I believe in SUPER Hyper Grace.Every day I do what I want.Like last night, I got as drunk as I “wanted” to get ! Same as the night Before and the same as the night before that.Funny thing is though, I did not “ want” to get drunk.I did not “ want” to rape or kill anybody either ...had I “ wanted” to, I would have been just as guilty as anybody who actually did those things. I agree with Luther who maintained that even though I would rape and murder a thousand times a day , the Grace That abounds farther than Sin would have it covered ....or was that a lie?
Yes, I do what I want and know that I can’t be damned because the Blood Of Christ is adequate to pay for all of my sins, if I Rest in the Gospel Of 1Cor15:1-4. I can’t Sin and “ Get Away With It” However.If I am Foolish enough to try to take advantage of the Grace Of God, trying to turn God's Grace into a” license to Sin”, God will Chastise me BIG TIME.....He just might even convince me not to try such Foolish things again! That’s the way it works with God . Any Obedience that counts with God is the obedience spurred by Love.....that Love only comes from those that know how to Throw Off the Shackles Of The Law and know the Freedom Of Grace Plus Nothing for their Salvation.....That Grace and Rest and Total Forgiveness is out there for everybody.....all one has to do to “ cash in” on all of this good stuff is to do the Will Of God.....What is that Will? If you answered, “ Believe in the One He sent” ( pretty much akin to Believing in Paul’s Gospel Of Pure Grace That Saves) —- go to the head of the class !
Sometimes I just sit around and my mind wanders....I sit here and think , Wow I can do what I “ want” and won’t go to Hell .....Its a funny thing, this Christianity.....just when I discover I can do what I “ Desire” and not be damned.......God changes my “ Desires!” Darn the Bad Luck !
What do all you good people out there think about this?

Yes, evil desires are certainly not something you can change in your own power. It is only the power of God that can make your nature born again, changing the old desire to new desires. But I've got a question about last night. If you had no desire to get drunk, why did you?

However, Luther was wrong and I hope you realize that.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Yes, evil desires are certainly not something you can change in your own power. It is only the power of God that can make your nature born again, changing the old desire to new desires. But I've got a question about last night. If you had no desire to get drunk, why did you?

However, Luther was wrong and I hope you realize that.

We have a slight misunderstand here.....I did NOT get drunk.....My point is that if I “ Wanted” To get drunk I could have and not gone to hell because of it......the same with any other sin.....People want to know what will keep a Believer in line if he is Secure in his Salvation and is not worried about going to Hell ......The simple explanation for that is I can do what I “ want” because the Holy Spirit within me lines up my “ wants” with His Will.......The Christian Walk is not one Of Will Power and the gritting Of one’s teeth, forcing one’s self to refrain from from the bad that they want to do or forcing one’s self to do things their hearts are not really into.....God changes that heart....
It’s doing what you want to do because you don’t want to do sinful things any more. Ever hear of God “ changing the inside of the cup?” What I have described is how it plays out in reality.....

Luther was using Hyperbole to make a point.....what he said would never happen, but theoretically if it ever DID happen.....he would be correct....Grace is not Fair....think about that and thank God that it isn't.....If God was “ fair” you and I and everybody else would be burning in Hell this very second....Perhaps God misspoke when He declared, “ where Sin did abound , Grace abounded that much more” .....that is something we should rejoice in.....not grumble about because God forbid, somebody might appear to “ get away with something”.....You and I and everybody else on this Planet sins every hour of every day and we don’t even realize it most of the time ( is your thought-life Pure?) So let’s thank God for the Grace be freely gives those that Trust Him and get on with our lives.....God Bless..

 

[CharismaticLady]

We have a slight misunderstand here.....I did NOT get drunk.....My point is that if I “ Wanted” To get drunk I could have and not gone to hell because of it......the same with any other sin.....People want to know what will keep a Believer in line if he is Secure in his Salvation and is not worried about going to Hell ......The simple explanation for that is I can do what I “ want” because the Holy Spirit within me lines up my “ wants” with His Will.......The Christian Walk is not one Of Will Power and the gritting Of one’s teeth, forcing one’s self to refrain from from the bad that they want to do or forcing one’s self to do things their hearts are not really into.....God changes that heart....
It’s doing what you want to do because you don’t want to do sinful things any more. Ever hear of God “ changing the inside of the cup?” What I have described is how it plays out in reality.....

Luther was using Hyperbole to make a point.....what he said would never happen, but theoretically if it ever DID happen.....he would be correct....Grace is not Fair....think about that and thank God that it isn't.....If God was “ fair” you and I and everybody else would be burning in Hell this very second....Perhaps God misspoke when He declared, “ where Sin did abound , Grace abounded that much more” .....that is something we should rejoice in.....not grumble about because God forbid, somebody might appear to “ get away with something”.....You and I and everybody else on this Planet sins every hour of every day and we don’t even realize it most of the time ( is your thought-life Pure?) So let’s thank God for the Grace be freely gives those that Trust Him and get on with our lives.....God Bless..

Sorry, I thought you said you got drunk last night when you said "Like last night, I got as drunk as I “wanted” to get! Same as the night Before and the same as the night before that." What you are saying is that you didn't WANT to get drunk, so you didn't.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Sorry, I thought you said you got drunk last night when you said "Like last night, I got as drunk as I “wanted” to get! Same as the night Before and the same as the night before that." What you are saying is that you didn't WANT to get drunk, so you didn't.

Lol......happy to see that we are connecting....I got drunk EVERY Night for twenty years and then Somebody ” Touched” me.....now I have not been drunk for 30 years. Ain’t I “ Something?”.....lol.......NOT! I know who to give the credit to.....it had Nothing to do with me...God Bless..

 

[mjrhealth]

My point is that if I “ Wanted” To get drunk I could have and not gone to hell because of it......the same with any other sin...

but getting drunk in itself is not a sin, you made it a sin when you said it was, it would only ever be a sin if you lost control and hurt someone, so what is sin..???

 

[CharismaticLady]

Lol......happy to see that we are connecting....I got drunk EVERY Night for twenty years and then Somebody ” Touched” me.....now I have not been drunk for 30 years. Ain’t I “ Something?”.....lol.......NOT! I know who to give the credit to.....it had Nothing to do with me...God Bless..

If I hadn't been through it, I may not have recognized it. The Spirit changes our nature, which is why Jesus said, we MUST be born again. New nature/new desires.

 

[Helen]

We have a slight misunderstand here.....I did NOT get drunk.....My point is that if I “ Wanted” To get drunk I could have and not gone to hell because of it......the same with any other sin.....People want to know what will keep a Believer in line if he is Secure in his Salvation and is not worried about going to Hell ......The simple explanation for that is I can do what I “ want” because the Holy Spirit within me lines up my “ wants” with His Will.......The Christian Walk is not one Of Will Power and the gritting Of one’s teeth, forcing one’s self to refrain from from the bad that they want to do or forcing one’s self to do things their hearts are not really into.....God changes that heart....
It’s doing what you want to do because you don’t want to do sinful things any more. Ever hear of God “ changing the inside of the cup?” What I have described is how it plays out in reality.....

Luther was using Hyperbole to make a point.....what he said would never happen, but theoretically if it ever DID happen.....he would be correct....Grace is not Fair....think about that and thank God that it isn't.....If God was “ fair” you and I and everybody else would be burning in Hell this very second....Perhaps God misspoke when He declared, “ where Sin did abound , Grace abounded that much more” .....that is something we should rejoice in.....not grumble about because God forbid, somebody might appear to “ get away with something”.....You and I and everybody else on this Planet sins every hour of every day and we don’t even realize it most of the time ( is your thought-life Pure?) So let’s thank God for the Grace be freely gives those that Trust Him and get on with our lives.....God Bless..

I agree wth what you are saying - that Father God has "taken the leash off the dog"...to see how well it will respond to His 'still, small, voice. '

I know what you are saying...
But I would never preach it , unless filling in all the blanks of explanation...
We are FREE to be bound to Him...as the love-slaves were to their Masters in the OT...at Jubilee...the refused to 'go out free' but wished to stay with their Master. Bound by love

Only a mature christian would fully understand this ...it's not for young babes...