Discernment vs Critisism

[Hidden In Him]

I think that by itself is an accomplishment since I see the "anger" as a facade, not real -- it's something they put up when they think someone is attacking them. Remove that false face and you are helping bring the "real person" out -- the person who is in the image and likeness of God.

Wow... that was well put.

I had someone get angry with me last year. I had no idea why. I said, "What's going on? Tell me what's wrong." He calmed down. It turned out someone told him a lie about me, said I said something about him. I said I had no idea what he was talking about. I hadn't said that. He said, "You know, that didn't sound like something you'd say."

Exactly. When we are weak and vulnerable to slander and insults, the enemy can cause all kinds of havoc through lies, false accusations and fears. But when the Spirit of God and the Spirit of love abides within us in power, it overcomes even this. It exposes lies, and reveals people's true hearts; with ours and theirs.

 

[CharismaticLady]

In answer to your other question, all sins are under the blood; we are not under the law, are dead to it, and are delivered from it as concerning condemnation (Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19, Romans 7:6).

However, if we are truly born again, the law has been written on our hearts and in our minds (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4).

Therefore our general direction is going to be away from sin; and the worst types of sins will not be committed by us (unless we were really bad before becoming born again).

Does that include willful sins? You really need to study Hebrews 10:26-31. It is only our PAST sins that were taken away. We are then empowered to no longer willfully sin. We may sin unintentionally, but not willfully.

 

[Nancy]

@Nancy, that last part I put in red seems to me to strive for perfection if never stumbling assures the entrance to the everlasting kingdom of Jesus.

"Complete in Him would be being just like Him wouldn't it. He is perfect, and He is to be the first of many brethren just like Him. Romans 8:29-30. Someone who is perfect never stumbles. Those who know this truth are never apathetic, and indeed, "work out their own salvation" Good word, Nancy. Study these verses which have become my favorites this year."

I'm not sold on being complete or perfected in Him saying that we must "be 'perfect' (complete) as our Father in heaven is perfect" I stumble but, He picks me up every-time! I could never claim "perfection" as Jesus did yet, it is what I do strive for as Paul says to do while in this race. Another reason I believe we (bro's and sissy's) need one another...to edify and to help us up when we fall.
And yes, good scriptures to look into, especially as some wrest them out of context and make it into an "elect" thing. Lol.

"
2 Peter 1:2-11
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

I do believe that perfection can be achieved when speaking of "lust"...especially the lust of the flesh. Now I can def. say I am "perfect" in that regard, lol. Yes, He gives us the power to walk away from these things for sure, "His grace is sufficient..." But there is so much more than these things to overcome...I have read some who say that even thoughts that flit through our minds seemingly from out of nowhere are considered sin! If ungodly thoughts flit, we (Christians) should have already developed a knee jerk reaction to them and cast them down and out of our minds right away.

"5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins."

To me this is a growth verse,(I do love this verse) leading to our 'perfection' in Him. It's a process and we all are in different places in our understanding and growth here. Producing the fruit of the Spirit can be clumbsy to newbies and probably to many folks who have been sitting in pews on Sunday's (or Saturdays) and grow very little, if at all. And...children need to learn how to walk from crawling

"10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
@Nancy, that last part I put in red seems to me to strive for perfection if never stumbling assures the entrance to the everlasting kingdom of Jesus."

Yes, I do believe He always has a "way out" of sin for us but, do we always recognize it? Do we sometimes give in to it during a weak moment? Just thinking I have to be perfect in all my ways in order to spend eternity with The Lord, pretty much makes me want to say "I don't got what it takes so why bother?" And I can't go there! So, I will continue in the race set before me and continue to seek His face and continue to desire what He desires. And will reach out for his hand when I fall short.
Romans 8:29,30 are on my to study list :)

In Him!
xo

 

[justbyfaith]

Does that include willful sins? You really need to study Hebrews 10:26-31. It is only our PAST sins that were taken away. We are then empowered to no longer willfully sin. We may sin unintentionally, but not willfully.

The sin that I commit 5 minutes from now, will be in the past 5 minutes and 1 second from now.

So, I think that you are saying that it is not forgiven until that extra second occurs so that our sin is in the past; which would indicate that if we are in a state of sin at the moment of death, we will not be redeemed (because our sin would be in the present).

The only thing is, we are always in a state of sin (Romans 7:18) and if we say or teach otherwise we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8).

So if I die in exactly five minutes (according to the former scenario), it is no different than if I die 5 minutes and 1 second from now; because the fact of the matter is, I have a sin nature whether I am acting according to it or not. And if I am not acting according to it when I die, it remains that I have it.

 

[justbyfaith]

@Scoot,

Criticism is spelled "criticism".

I believe there is a button near the top where you can edit the thread name, if you have started the thread.

But perhaps I am being overly critical...:cool:.

 

[CharismaticLady]

"Complete in Him would be being just like Him wouldn't it. He is perfect, and He is to be the first of many brethren just like Him. Romans 8:29-30. Someone who is perfect never stumbles. Those who know this truth are never apathetic, and indeed, "work out their own salvation" Good word, Nancy. Study these verses which have become my favorites this year."

I'm not sold on being complete or perfected in Him saying that we must "be 'perfect' (complete) as our Father in heaven is perfect" I stumble but, He picks me up every-time! I could never claim "perfection" as Jesus did yet, it is what I do strive for as Paul says to do while in this race. Another reason I believe we (bro's and sissy's) need one another...to edify and to help us up when we fall.
And yes, good scriptures to look into, especially as some wrest them out of context and make it into an "elect" thing. Lol.

"
2 Peter 1:2-11
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

I do believe that perfection can be achieved when speaking of "lust"...especially the lust of the flesh. Now I can def. say I am "perfect" in that regard, lol. Yes, He gives us the power to walk away from these things for sure, "His grace is sufficient..." But there is so much more than these things to overcome...I have read some who say that even thoughts that flit through our minds seemingly from out of nowhere are considered sin! If ungodly thoughts flit, we (Christians) should have already developed a knee jerk reaction to them and cast them down and out of our minds right away.

"5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins."

To me this is a growth verse,(I do love this verse) leading to our 'perfection' in Him. It's a process and we all are in different places in our understanding and growth here. Producing the fruit of the Spirit can be clumbsy to newbies and probably to many folks who have been sitting in pews on Sunday's (or Saturdays) and grow very little, if at all. And...children need to learn how to walk from crawling

"10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
@Nancy, that last part I put in red seems to me to strive for perfection if never stumbling assures the entrance to the everlasting kingdom of Jesus."

Yes, I do believe He always has a "way out" of sin for us but, do we always recognize it? Do we sometimes give in to it during a weak moment? Just thinking I have to be perfect in all my ways in order to spend eternity with The Lord, pretty much makes me want to say "I don't got what it takes so why bother?" And I can't go there! So, I will continue in the race set before me and continue to seek His face and continue to desire what He desires. And will reach out for his hand when I fall short.
Romans 8:29,30 are on my to study list :)

In Him!
xo

To the degree I know you, I think you are being too hard on yourself. You are well on your way to perfection, my dear. As faithfully as you avoid sin, I doubt you are being apathetic at all. The yoke of Christ is very easy. According to 1 John 3:21-24, go to bed with a clear conscience. And I don't mean whipping yourself over procrastination or that you didn't do enough today. I do that. But I know I haven't hurt anyone today, except myself. I find I want to be on the forums teaching in these last days, and I don't care if the dishes don't get done. Sometimes, I wait until I HAVE to do them because I've run out of dishes or silverware.

 

[justbyfaith]

The reality is that our salvation isn't based on our being able to have a perfect performance in our Christian walk; and neither is it dependent on our being in a state of not sinning when the Lord returns for us to take us home.

It is based on the perfect righteousness of Christ being applied to our account through His shed blood. He has imputed righteousness to us because of our faith.

You can walk in freedom and victory because of this...first, from and over condemnation; and then, from and over sin.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The sin that I commit 5 minutes from now, will be in the past 5 minutes and 1 second from now.

So, I think that you are saying that it is not forgiven until that extra second occurs so that our sin is in the past; which would indicate that if we are in a state of sin at the moment of death, we will not be redeemed (because our sin would be in the present).

A born again child of God doesn't commit the sins you are talking about. Mine ended in 1977. You are saying you will commit sins tomorrow, but in two days they will be in the past. Do you really think that is what Peter meant in 2 Peter 1:9?

The only thing is, we are always in a state of sin (Romans 7:18) and if we say or teach otherwise we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8).

You still don't get it. Both Romans 7:18 and 1 John 1:8 are people BEFORE accepting Christ who takes away their sin.

So if I die in exactly five minutes (according to the former scenario), it is no different than if I die 5 minutes and 1 second from now; because the fact of the matter is, I have a sin nature whether I am acting according to it or not. And if I am not acting according to it when I die, it remains that I have it.

If you still have a sin nature then you've never been born again, and do not have the Spirit of God indwelling in you. Is that what you are saying? Could be, because I went to church for 30 years in that state. But then I truly repented for the first time in my life, and Jesus filled me to overflowing, and I was born again literally. I no longer had the old familiar sin nature, but a divine nature that loved everything about God and His Word and I had power to no longer sin. It was supernatural, and I even received many gifts that night that I never had before, plus all my prayers were answered, not like the none that were answered for the first 30 years of my life.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The reality is that our salvation isn't based on our being able to have a perfect performance in our Christian walk; and neither is it dependent on our being in a state of not sinning when the Lord returns for us to take us home.

It is based on the perfect righteousness of Christ being applied to our account through His shed blood. He has imputed righteousness to us because of our faith.

You can walk in freedom and victory because of this...first, from and over condemnation; and then, from and over sin.

The righteousness of Christ is not just a covering while we keep sinning as you describe. It is real, not theory. My nature now is to keep His commandments. I don't have to work at it. That is part of my new nature. jbf, I'm afraid you've got a twisted version of what the law of the Spirit of life in Christ is all about. When we come to Him, He doesn't leave us slaves to sin, but slaves to righteousness. We literally are children of God with many powers and authorities.

 

[justbyfaith]

I'm not talking about the law of the Spirit of life in Christ. I'm talking about propitiation and imputed righteousness.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I'm not talking about the law of the Spirit of life in Christ. I'm talking about propitiation and imputed righteousness.

Imputed righteousness? Are you talking about Abraham? His obedience and trust in God was accounted unto him as righteousness. You are making it out to be if he sinned, he would be seen as righteous. No, just the opposite.

1 John 3:
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

Romans 8:29-30
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

We are to be like Christ, not just hide behind Him. I'm sorry, but that is a common but screwy doctrine.

 

[justbyfaith]

You still don't get it. Both Romans 7:18 and 1 John 1:8 are people BEFORE accepting Christ who takes away their sin.

I disagree with your premise. The apostle John said "we" in 1 John 1:8, that included himself.

A born again child of God doesn't commit the sins you are talking about. Mine ended in 1977. You are saying you will commit sins tomorrow, but in two days they will be in the past. Do you really think that is what Peter meant in 2 Peter 1:9?

You still commit unintentional sins, you have admitted that in times past.

I was also not talking about committing sins; I was talking about indwelling sin. A person can have indwelling sin and not sin; because that element can be rendered dead.

If you still have a sin nature then you've never been born again, and do not have the Spirit of God indwelling in you. Is that what you are saying? Could be, because I went to church for 30 years in that state. But then I truly repented for the first time in my life, and Jesus filled me to overflowing, and I was born again literally. I no longer had the old familiar sin nature, but a divine nature that loved everything about God and His Word and I had power to no longer sin. It was supernatural, and I even received many gifts that night that I never had before, plus all my prayers were answered, not like the none that were answered for the first 30 years of my life.

Can you say with John, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us"? Can you include yourself in that "we"? if not, then you deceive yourself and the truth is not in you.

I believe that you had an experience wherein you began to love God and hate sin. I have also had such an experience. But in that experience I was not yet saved; because my trust was still in my ability to keep myself saved by my abstaining from sin. Now I know that I know that I know that I am saved because my trust is not in myself but in Christ and what He did for me on the Cross in forgiving me of all my sins; and how this cannot be altered by my failing or messing up. I am secure in my salvation because my salvation is not dependent on me.

Do I walk in basic freedom and victory over sin? You betcha. But my salvation isn't dependent on this. I do so not in order to earn or keep my salvation; but because when I have sinned in times past, my conscience has afflicted me (see Romans 7:24) and I would rather live in a state of being where I am not afflicted by my conscience; wherein I also have a good conscience (not one that has been seared as with a hot iron). Because I am God's child and not a bastard, I have been a subject of the Lord's discipline and chastening...and this is what has produced the peaceable fruit of righteousness within me.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The apostle John said "we" in 1 John 1:8, that included himself.

You have John contradicting himself. That is not logical. 1 John 3:5

Will read the rest tomorrow. Good night brother.

 

[justbyfaith]

Imputed righteousness? Are you talking about Abraham? His obedience and trust in God was accounted unto him as righteousness. You are making it out to be if he sinned, he would be seen as righteous. No, just the opposite.

1 John 3:
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

Romans 8:29-30
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

We are to be like Christ, not just hide behind Him. I'm sorry, but that is a common but screwy doctrine.

I am not going to quote them for you so that you can pick them apart. You are going to have to come across them in your own reading time. Look for that word "imputed" though in the kjv.

 

[justbyfaith]

You have John contradicting himself. That is not logical. 1 John 3:5

Will read the rest tomorrow. Good night brother.

He is not contradicting himself. If you pit two verses together against one verse, that one verse, like a sword, will cut those verses back in two.

Good night.

 

[Mike Waters]

Interwoven throughout this thread I find many advices that strike deep into my own deficiencies of taking offence.
God bless all of those who have ministered to me accordingly.

 

[Sabertooth]

Just wondering - at what point do you believe discernment crosses the line into criticism,...?

Discernment IS a type of criticism.
The former is Spirit-powered.
The latter is flesh-powered.

...and how do you check yourselves to make sure that you walk in discernment, but not take on a critical spirit?

"...Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up." 1 Corinthians 8:1

Tellin' the Truth, Twila Paris (1985)

 

[Scoot]

There's some really great points here - thanks all for replying, and sorry I haven't responded to all.

Whilst slightly off topic from what I was considering, there are a couple of posts that rang with me:

I seldom criticize anyone outright. I tend to make suggestions about how they could get better results in their lives.

I love this. It reminds me - a critical person (critical in 'spirit') is quick to - and is all about pulling down, not lifting up.

Prayerfully consider if there is any beam in my own eyes I need to remove. Criticism involves condemnation - discernment has a different attitude approach to the situation. One that's humble and if a rebuke is necessary it's done from love.

I loved this too, and it was great confirmation to something that has been on my heart: Jesus never said not to deal with the spec in our brothers eye - He just said to deal with your issues first. That puts us in a place of being humble, knowing that we have the ability to mess up just as much (if not more) than the person we are trying to help.

Discernment IS a type of criticism.
The former is Spirit-powered.
The latter is flesh-powered.
"...Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up." 1 Corinthians 8:1Tellin' the Truth, Twila Paris (1985)

You are so right. Where I was coming from with my question is wanting to make sure I didn't cross the line from discerning to having a 'critical spirit'.

Criticism in itself isn't a bad thing (such as constructive criticism) - it's about the heart and nature of which it's done. Two people can have the exact same outwards action, but one be right and the other wrong - because of the heart/motive that is behind it.

Lately, it seems I'm picking up more things that I'm concerned with than ever before. I've just had a lot of disappointments more recently and it seems as though it could be easy to go from being diligent to looking for fault - and I'm just looking for ways and indicators to make sure that I'm not falling accordingly.

 

[Mike Waters]

After a bit of searching (through both scriptures and my heart) I'm beginning to think that discernment becomes criticism when it tends to argue the toss regarding the interpretation and application of theology.
On the other side of the coin, it is not easy to define discernment that is not criticism, other than perhaps to say that it might be anything that does not apply to arguing the toss about the interpretation and application of theology.
As one of the so called 'gifts', discernment is clearly stated to relate to the ability to distinguish between 'spirits'.

 

[Nancy]

To the degree I know you, I think you are being too hard on yourself. You are well on your way to perfection, my dear. As faithfully as you avoid sin, I doubt you are being apathetic at all. The yoke of Christ is very easy. According to 1 John 3:21-24, go to bed with a clear conscience. And I don't mean whipping yourself over procrastination or that you didn't do enough today. I do that. But I know I haven't hurt anyone today, except myself. I find I want to be on the forums teaching in these last days, and I don't care if the dishes don't get done. Sometimes, I wait until I HAVE to do them because I've run out of dishes or silverware.

Ty and, yes his yoke is lighter than I would have thought. No, I'm not apathetic, especially about sinning as, I know that does not please God and quenches His Holy Spirit.
Ha, you are like me as, I've done the same thing with the dishes, only to find I'm out of paper plates Funny thing is that, once I got rid of the dishwasher (old, broken down) my sink remains empty as I decided to never let it get full again and, it's only happened a couple times...don't like getting up to them in the sink, puts me in a growly mood...lol.