What does the Kingdom of God mean to you?
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Stumpmaster
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Before Benoni answers allow me to reiterate my position and add to the discussion:Miss Hepburn said:
I believe this includes but is not confined to the church that is made up of the believers who constitute the body of Christ.
The institutions and denominations which are in error and apostasy are not part of the kingdom of God or kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 16:18
(18) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Whatever God's power produces becomes part of the kingdom of God, and since God's power produces the church, the church is part of the kingdom of God, but does not embody all of it.
The kingdom of God includes the kingdom of heaven, so entitled because God's perfect will is already realized there ( in heaven), and is, through prayer and effort, to be transferred thence to this earth.
I hope this helps someone.
I am going to answer both of you. Yes the kingdom of God is the Church (big "C") but it is not Babylon. Babylon is a golden cup in the hands of the Lord, God uses the religious system. But the "true church" is our "first love", the christ with in us, the Holy Spirit with in us, that part of that hears God and not the systems of man which is the little "c" church.
Fascinating - absolutely fascinating, esp. - for a newish Christian - that is trying to understand ALOT! Babylon I don't know about - don't really care to -Benoni said:
But, the first church is the Holy Spirit WITHIN!! Big kiss on the cheek for you, Benoni.
I want to hear lots more!!
:) Miss Hepburn
Well, I returned to this topic, because I don't think/consider the "church or Church " to be the Kingdom of God.
I consider the Kingdom to be within inside us and to be at hand - and is to be saught first and foremost.
I consider the Kingdom to be within inside us and to be at hand - and is to be saught first and foremost.
When John the Baptist said:
Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
It's obvious that he meant something bigger than our hearts, or the universal Church.
Since the days of King David we want to build a house for God. It's the other way around.
Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
It's obvious that he meant something bigger than our hearts, or the universal Church.
Since the days of King David we want to build a house for God. It's the other way around.
The "other way around" - meaning God wants to build a house for us? :)
Is that what you mean?
Yes.
(I never know what people mean by "universal Church" -as you wrote. For that matter,
I don't even know what church means. Everyone says something different.)
BTW, it says that I wrote this at 1pm today when it's really 6:20 am presently Christmas Eve. Mountain time.
I also gave you a + for your post, but I got a -"You've reached your quota for the day" - it was my 1st one!
Yes, that's what I meant.
Universal church = All the believers, past, present and future everywhere, even if they have different worship styles.
EAHARA
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Let's look at another passage of scripture -- Matt. 21: 33-46. In this parable, Jesus defines the Kingdom of God
[sup]43[/sup]Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
To whom was this warning addressed? It was to the leaders of Judaism. In the parable, the vineyard spoken of refers to National Israel. Therefore, we can see that the Kingdom of God has reference to that nation which was referred to in Psalms 22:22 as "the congregation". This word for congregation (qahal in Hebrew), is translated into "eklessia" in the Greek in Hebrews 2:12.
Eklessia is the Greek word for Church.
Thus, if we connect the dots, we see that one of many definitions of the Church is that it is the Kingdom of God.
[sup]43[/sup]Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
To whom was this warning addressed? It was to the leaders of Judaism. In the parable, the vineyard spoken of refers to National Israel. Therefore, we can see that the Kingdom of God has reference to that nation which was referred to in Psalms 22:22 as "the congregation". This word for congregation (qahal in Hebrew), is translated into "eklessia" in the Greek in Hebrews 2:12.
Eklessia is the Greek word for Church.
Thus, if we connect the dots, we see that one of many definitions of the Church is that it is the Kingdom of God.
That does not constitute a definition at all, being just one among the parables of the Kingdom of Heaven
"Thus, if we connect the dots, we see that one of many definitions of the Church is that it is the Kingdom of God. " -Irish Eddie
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And if we connected the dots more - is the Church/church "within" ?
See how it gets confusing to me - is a church a building - a congregation wherever it is held - a building, open air, 4 people in a home, 2 people talking about God at a restaurant, within inside... ?
I seem to follow the "church" being believers everywhere... that's not hard for me.
But, then others disagree with that.
"Church/church" is probably the hardest overall single concept in the Bible for me. So far anyway.
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And if we connected the dots more - is the Church/church "within" ?
See how it gets confusing to me - is a church a building - a congregation wherever it is held - a building, open air, 4 people in a home, 2 people talking about God at a restaurant, within inside... ?
I seem to follow the "church" being believers everywhere... that's not hard for me.
But, then others disagree with that.
"Church/church" is probably the hardest overall single concept in the Bible for me. So far anyway.
Today in church, praying, I realized something, when we ask "Thy Kingdom come" it's hard to think that His Kingdom is comprised only by the Universal Church.
EAHARA
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Parables are given to us to clarify certain things. For instance, the parable of the Net teaches us a Truth about the Church -- that She will receive into Her arms both good and bad until the end of time. The parable of the Sower teaches us the same thing.
Parables are meant to be studied for understanding. This one shows us several important things: the fact that the Kingdom of God was already upon Earth in Jesus day and not yet to come some 2,000 + years later, that there were certain people in charge of the Kingdom, namely the Jews, that the Kingdom therefore had a certain structure which we should study in order to understand it better, and that the Jews would be stripped of the Kingdom and it would be given to others.
I was a Catholic Seminarian. I do know and still agree that parables are there to teach us some point of the faith. But for its very nature, no parable constitutes a theological definition. used to teach that to post-communion cathecumens and in High School. I know it is very hard to believe somebody who's on the enemy's side, so to speak, so I urge you to speak with any Catholic with some theological formal instruction. I
As for the matter being in question. Look, go through the story of the Kingdom of Israel; it's quite revealing of the nature of God and our nature. I do not have the time to go through all of it here, specially as this could be one of my last posts, but when you go and study it please consider:
a) How many "bad" kings did Israel have. (Just browsing through Kings would show that)
B) In the book of Samuel review how the establishment of the kingdom was preceded by God's warnings.
c) See that in the very parable you quoted and through-out the Bible, the kings of Israel are entrusted to keep God's Kingdom. They were the stewards of God's Kingdom, but neither own it nor they were the Kingdom.
And so the universal church might be the stewards of God's Kingdom, but I, with Augustine, may question if the universal church is being such a faithful steward of God's Kingdom. In other words, in a world in which hundred of thousand children live homeless -just to choose an issue- how can be us bold as to say that we millions of Christians are good?
No, we aren't The Kingdom of God, we aren't the pure or the best, but the poor and the forgiven. We are the unfaithful stewards still being given another chance, just out of God's mercy. My only hope is that He, perhaps, knows a bit better that what I can see.
kestrel,
Please before you think of leaving - it is amazing how taking a vacation
from here refreshes us. And also topics will be gone and new ones will start up.
Hoping you stick around...
:) Miss Hepburn
Hey, I think I found my color!
Please before you think of leaving - it is amazing how taking a vacation
from here refreshes us. And also topics will be gone and new ones will start up.
Hoping you stick around...
:) Miss Hepburn
Hey, I think I found my color!
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
kestrel,
Please before you think of leaving - it is amazing how taking a vacation
from here refreshes us. And also topics will be gone and new ones will start up.
Hoping you stick around...
Miss Hepburn
Hey, I think I found my color!
Don't worry Miss Hepburn. He's just blowing off steam. He's not going anywhere.
It is the spiritual state of the soul that is born of God.
Thus:
1) it is not seen by physical eyes, but spiritual eyes.
2) it is not partaken of physically, but spiritually, until death occurs for those born of God. Thereafter, when once the mortal has put on immortality, then it, too, is partaking of the spiritual.
Both of the above are the continual state of those who have fallen asleep in Him.
None others than the first sentence, and thus those also of the second sentence, ever partake of the kingdom of God. They may very well come into realization/interaction with it, but that is the extreme extent of the narrow possibilities for those not born into it.
Thus:
1) it is not seen by physical eyes, but spiritual eyes.
2) it is not partaken of physically, but spiritually, until death occurs for those born of God. Thereafter, when once the mortal has put on immortality, then it, too, is partaking of the spiritual.
Both of the above are the continual state of those who have fallen asleep in Him.
None others than the first sentence, and thus those also of the second sentence, ever partake of the kingdom of God. They may very well come into realization/interaction with it, but that is the extreme extent of the narrow possibilities for those not born into it.
Worry? Not in my vocabulary.
My wish is that others would never use it either as if it's
a normal thing that everyone "just does".
Jesus said not to and I don't. Period. End of story.
Finnito.
Guess you can tell I feel strongly about this... LOL!!!!
I get the heebies when anyone says "worry" in any way.
I follow the Leader.
(And it's 7am here, not whatever it says above.)
Hi Miss Hepburn. Just curious. What part of the concept of Church is giving you trouble? Perhaps I can help.
all the best...
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