Malachi and Elijah

[Jay Ross]

In Josephs well known dream in the Tanakh/ Old Testament,
he states clearly what the stars in his dream represent (or someone does (from memory here) ) ....

With the right approach it is easy to find the record of Joseph's dreams in Genesis 37:1-11.

 

[Keraz]

I see the Sixth Seal as a prolepsis of the Coming of Christ. But it is used in the vision as a set up for the following visions of the 7 trumpets, which also bring us up to the 2nd Coming. So it is indeed a vision, using symbols that indicate the 2nd Coming.

I see the Sixth Seal as exactly what it is called: the Day of the Lord's wrath against the nations.
It has nothing to do the the Return of Jesus in His glory, several years later.

A sun darkened by the smoke of fields burning was, I think, a common image used by prophets to depict invasions and wars. It is not too cryptic to decipher for the common man.

The sun was darkened before, Exodus 10:21. It is something that God has control over. He will do it again at the SS and again at His Return, Matthew 24:29

The falling of stars clearly was not depicting actual "stars" such as actual suns! A sun is often many times bigger than the earth, and would completely destroy the earth if it hit it.

There are meteors falling onto earth all the time and occasionally a 'shower' of them will happen. Of course they won't be actual stars or the sun, your comment above is unnecessary and shows the shallowness of your case.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I see the Sixth Seal as exactly what it is called: the Day of the Lord's wrath against the nations.
It has nothing to do the the Return of Jesus in His glory, several years later.

I see nothing in the passage about "several years later?" The "Day of the Lord's Wrath" is associated with the 2nd Coming of Christ.

The sun was darkened before, Exodus 10:21. It is something that God has control over. He will do it again at the SS and again at His Return, Matthew 24:29

Yes, it's possible the Lord could darken the sun, such as He did at the Lord's crucifixion. I happen to think that the context in the book of Revelation is warfare. We see this image given in association with the Olivet Discourse. In that context the focus is also on the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, which was also about warfare. And so, I think there is a comparison between the warfare in the time of Christ's Coming and the warfare that took place in 70 AD. The sun is darkened by the smoke of burning cities and fields.

There are meteors falling onto earth all the time and occasionally a 'shower' of them will happen. Of course they won't be actual stars or the sun, your comment above is unnecessary and shows the shallowness of your case.

I found it necessary to clarify that these were falling meteors--not stars--due to your constant claim that the "Day of God's Wrath" is all about solar flares, ie flares from the sun. This is not about "stars," or "suns," but rather, symbolism about a changing of the guard, both in heaven and on earth.

Those who have ruled in the name of God, both in heaven and on earth, will come crashing down. This isn't about natural phenomena, but rather, about a tremendous political/spiritual change.

 

[Joseph77]

Just fwiw, so to speak, another Scripture about such things, though it may be unrelated:
the sun, the moon, and eleven stars bowing down to Joseph. ...the sun is Joseph's father, Jacob - the moon is Joseph's mother, and the eleven stars are Joseph's brothers.

So the various mentions in the Apocalypse may also refer to kings, or leaders, or so forth ?

Yes, it's possible the Lord could darken the sun, such as He did at the Lord's crucifixion. I happen to think that the context in the book of Revelation is warfare. We see this image given in association with the Olivet Discourse. In that context the focus is also on the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, which was also about warfare. And so, I think there is a comparison between the warfare in the time of Christ's Coming and the warfare that took place in 70 AD. The sun is darkened by the smoke of burning cities and fields.

Those who have ruled in the name of God, both in heaven and on earth, will come crashing down. This isn't about natural phenomena, but rather, about a tremendous political/spiritual change.

 

[Keraz]

I see nothing in the passage about "several years later?" The "Day of the Lord's Wrath" is associated with the 2nd Coming of Christ.

The time periods are in Daniel and Revelation. For example see Revelation 9:5, which tells of a five month time for the Fifth Trumpet.
But it is the 70th week; final 7 years before Jesus Returns, that proves 'several years' between the Sixth seal and the Return.

The rest of your post #43, shows that you refuse to believe what the Bible prophets said. You believe the Salvation message and how we should live now, but reject what all the prophets, incl Jesus told us will happen?
There will come a time, when you and all who discount the Prophetic Word, will bitterly regret your lack of understanding of what will happen in our time.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The time periods are in Daniel and Revelation. For example see Revelation 9:5, which tells of a five month time for the Fifth Trumpet.
But it is the 70th week; final 7 years before Jesus Returns, that proves 'several years' between the Sixth seal and the Return.

The rest of your post #43, shows that you refuse to believe what the Bible prophets said. You believe the Salvation message and how we should live now, but reject what all the prophets, incl Jesus told us will happen?
There will come a time, when you and all who discount the Prophetic Word, will bitterly regret your lack of understanding of what will happen in our time.

Or, you might find yourself in the unenviable position of apologizing for having been a False Prophet? I believe you have the prophecy of the 70th Week wrong, because it was fulfilled in the time of Christ, and immediately following. It was not, in other words, a prophecy of the end of the age. A few thought so, but most did not.

If you have your eschatology based on Daniel 9, and have it wrong, then the rest is going to be wrong, as well. The visions of Daniel were often prolepses of the time of Christ's Coming--not a calendar giving us dates of various events. A "Prolepsis" is a vision of a future event as if it is happening now.

But thinking the book of Revelation is designed so we can set up a chronology of events is contrary to the spirit of Scriptures. Jesus told us to avoid date-setting, and trying to anticipate future events.

The big thing is getting prepared for Christ's Coming. And we don't do that by guessing dates and various preliminary events. Rather, we do that by keeping our spiritual life with God right. That way we will *always* be ready, and not just when we see final events about to unfold.

Yes, there are a few things that are preliminary to Christ's Return. An important one is the fact Antichrist must precede his Coming. And that is important because the deceptions of this present age must precede the judgment at his Coming. That is important because unless God is patient first, many will die who God wants to get saved first. But we must know deceptions come first so that we are prepared to resist them, and to help others resist them.

And so God lets a lot of evil dominate politically in this world first before He brings judgment. He wants the Gospel message to get out, limiting how much judgment takes place and how fast it takes place before people are completely and immediately destroyed.

 

[Keraz]

Or, you might find yourself in the unenviable position of apologizing for having been a False Prophet?

As what I do is to promote what the Prophets said, you are actually saying they were wrong. I am just a messenger.

The 70th 'week' of Daniel 9:24, is not and cannot be fulfilled as yet. Rebellion continues, Sin increases, Iniquity is not reconciled, Everlasting righteousness has not come, The Vision is not sealed and the most Holy place is not even built or anointed.

Most Prophecy is in 'prolepses'. They are Written in the present tense because their fulfillment is assured.

 

[Timtofly]

Or, you might find yourself in the unenviable position of apologizing for having been a False Prophet? I believe you have the prophecy of the 70th Week wrong, because it was fulfilled in the time of Christ, and immediately following. It was not, in other words, a prophecy of the end of the age. A few thought so, but most did not.

If you have your eschatology based on Daniel 9, and have it wrong, then the rest is going to be wrong, as well. The visions of Daniel were often prolepses of the time of Christ's Coming--not a calendar giving us dates of various events. A "Prolepsis" is a vision of a future event as if it is happening now.

But thinking the book of Revelation is designed so we can set up a chronology of events is contrary to the spirit of Scriptures. Jesus told us to avoid date-setting, and trying to anticipate future events.

The big thing is getting prepared for Christ's Coming. And we don't do that by guessing dates and various preliminary events. Rather, we do that by keeping our spiritual life with God right. That way we will *always* be ready, and not just when we see final events about to unfold.

Yes, there are a few things that are preliminary to Christ's Return. An important one is the fact Antichrist must precede his Coming. And that is important because the deceptions of this present age must precede the judgment at his Coming. That is important because unless God is patient first, many will die who God wants to get saved first. But we must know deceptions come first so that we are prepared to resist them, and to help others resist them.

And so God lets a lot of evil dominate politically in this world first before He brings judgment. He wants the Gospel message to get out, limiting how much judgment takes place and how fast it takes place before people are completely and immediately destroyed.

What do you even base your Antichrist theory on? The only noticeable thing is every one seems to have an eerily different take on the end, these days. I am not sure other than amil, who seem to deny everything in Revelation, there is a consensus on most points. The point of fact is no one can even accept a start point of the whole process. If no one is going to accept points made in Revelation as literal events, no one is going to be prepared. But the point is not being prepared, it is being obedient. If people think they can just get things right next Sunday, that will not work one bit.

 

[Randy Kluth]

What do you even base your Antichrist theory on? The only noticeable thing is every one seems to have an eerily different take on the end, these days. I am not sure other than amil, who seem to deny everything in Revelation, there is a consensus on most points. The point of fact is no one can even accept a start point of the whole process. If no one is going to accept points made in Revelation as literal events, no one is going to be prepared. But the point is not being prepared, it is being obedient. If people think they can just get things right next Sunday, that will not work one bit.

My starting point was Jesus' warning that we aren't given to anticipate the day and hour of his return. And his Apostles were told in Acts that they weren't given to know the "times and seasons." So we know that Revelation was given not as a calendar scheme, to anticipate events in advance, but rather, to understand the character of this age and how we are to approach it.

We are to expect that God is currently tolerant of wicked political leaders, and we are to expect that in this environment open hatred for our Christianity will be displayed. This is the time when we testify to the world as to what they need to do to avoid future judgment in eternity, and even judgment today, if they refuse to repent and continue to resist God's will.

It is in this light that Jesus said he would come, without confusion, in an open display from heaven *after* the tribulations of the present age. He would not come secretly, nor in disguise. And he warned his Disciples that this reality would be obscured by deceivers.

Furthermore, the Apostle Paul said the same thing, that Christ would not come back to gather believers together until after the revelation of Antichrist. Then Christ would come back to destroy him.

All of this is plainly spelled out in the word of God. But we are to expect that deceiving spirits will confuse even Christians as they pursue the truth. Only pride can get in our way, along with a lack of knowledge.

 

[Randy Kluth]

As what I do is to promote what the Prophets said, you are actually saying they were wrong. I am just a messenger.

The 70th 'week' of Daniel 9:24, is not and cannot be fulfilled as yet. Rebellion continues, Sin increases, Iniquity is not reconciled, Everlasting righteousness has not come, The Vision is not sealed and the most Holy place is not even built or anointed.

Most Prophecy is in 'prolepses'. They are Written in the present tense because their fulfillment is assured.

I have no problem whatsoever with you or I speculating on what various events will be based on the book of Revelation. The only thing that makes me concerned that you may be giving "false prophecy" is your claim that those of us who are skeptical about it are actually being "foolish" and somehow "missing God." That is a declaration that you are "prophesying," and not just speculating.

We can certainly agree, disagree, or debate what the 6th Seal is. You can even feel that's what God has shown you. But if you're going to claim others, who are skeptical, are missing God in some way, then that falls into the category of "false prophecy" for me.

Again, I don't know one way or another if there will be some kind of coronal mass emission--it is certainly possible. But unless God tells me personally, I can only speculate about it. I'm not rejecting God's word if I don't know properly how to interpret something!

 

[Keraz]

But if you're going to claim others, who are skeptical, are missing God in some way, then that falls into the category of "false prophecy" for me.

Not missing God, i confidently assume you and all members here are Christians. Salvation is not an issue!
But you are missing the wonderful Promises of God to His people. How He will protect His own during His fiery wrath and then bless and prosper them in all of the holy Land.

Furthermore, the Apostle Paul said the same thing, that Christ would not come back to gather believers together until after the revelation of Antichrist. Then Christ would come back to destroy him.

Paul plainly said the Christians will be gathered into the very place that the ancient Israelites were exiled from. Romans 9:24-26
This will happen soon after the Sixth Seal has cleared and cleansed the holy Land. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Isaiah 24, Jeremiah 10:18
John sees them there in Revelation 7:9, and Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7 both confirm it.

 

[101G]

The above prophecy “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet ... that he may return the heart of the fathers…” means that Elijah’s role to provide spiritual assistance to people living in This World, will take on immense proportions before the great and terible Day of God, and he will awaken the heart of the people to repentance.

is this not GREAT? is not the Lord GRACIOUS? once one taste the Lord you don't want nothing else. right in the scriptures themselves and before one's eyes the answer looms in broad open daylight.

“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet ... that he may return the heart of the fathers…”
John the the Baptist, question, "was John sent "BY" God or "FROM" God...... let's have a look see, by checking the record. John 1:6 "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John." BINGO, John was "SENT" from God not sent "BY" God did one get the revelation? John was sent "FROM" God. what did Malachi 4:5 say? "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:" John was sent "FROM" God just as Malachi 4:5 states. he was not sent by GOD, but FROM God. many, many, many, years ago while setting in church while the preacher was preaching I was reading John chapter 1. it was then when the Lord put me on the trail of John the Baptist. the words in John 1:6 jump off the pages when I read them. the keyword was "sent", and not "by". one can do bible study right in 11o am service...

so John was "SENT", and his mission as said, Malachi 4:6 "And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." was this fulfilled as said in John? lets have another look see in the record. Luke 1:16 "And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God."
Luke 1:17 "And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

this is an exact quote word for word here in Luke with Malachi 4:6. THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT JOHN THE BAPTIST IS THE ELIJAH TO COME, WITNESS #1. now who is witness #2. Malachi 3:1 "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts."
HOLD IT, STOP THE PRESS. diversity is written all over the verse. lets break this down. "I", "ME", saith the "LORD", but it's the "Lord" who comes
a poster once posted this, "the LORD and the Lord are interchangable". lol, lol, lol. NO, it's just the same person "diversified" in flesh. ... (SMILE). this is good. the one who came is GOD HIMSELF diversified or shared equally in in flesh... BINGO. God came, supportive scripture, Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you." the prophet Isaiah made it clear by saying, "behold, your God will come", and he compounded it by saying, "even God" he made sure that you know that it was GOD who is comming. so Malachi 3:1 made it clear that GOD is the diversity of himself by noting it was the LORD who spoke it, and that the it was the Lord who came. so the ordinal First spoke of his coming as the ordinal Last... (SMILE), aint God GREAT. aint he, as Tony the Tiger say, "HE'S .. G,G,G, GREAT".

PICJAG.

 

[101G]

Malachi 3:1 "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts."
THIS IS JESUS SPEAKING IN THE OLD TESTAMENT AS THE ORDINAL "FIRST".

Matthew 11:7 "And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?"
Matthew 11:8 "But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses."
Matthew 11:9 "But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet."
Matthew 11:10 "For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee."

my God how clear can one get? the Lord Jesus, God almighty in flesh, just said that the messenger he sent before him is this John the Baptist. BINGO.

are we getting this?.

PICJAG

 

[Timtofly]

My starting point was Jesus' warning that we aren't given to anticipate the day and hour of his return. And his Apostles were told in Acts that they weren't given to know the "times and seasons." So we know that Revelation was given not as a calendar scheme, to anticipate events in advance, but rather, to understand the character of this age and how we are to approach it.

We are to expect that God is currently tolerant of wicked political leaders, and we are to expect that in this environment open hatred for our Christianity will be displayed. This is the time when we testify to the world as to what they need to do to avoid future judgment in eternity, and even eternity today, if they refuse to repent and continue to resist God's will.

It is in this light that Jesus said he would come, without confusion, in an open display from heaven *after* the tribulations of the present age. He would not come secretly, nor in disguise. And he warned his Disciples that this reality would be obscured by deceivers.

Furthermore, the Apostle Paul said the same thing, that Christ would not come back to gather believers together until after the revelation of Antichrist. Then Christ would come back to destroy him.

All of this is plainly spelled out in the word of God. But we are to expect that deceiving spirits will confuse even Christians as they pursue the truth. Only pride can get in our way, along with a lack of knowledge.

Satan is the deceiver. If you accept that, then the deceiver has been exposed. The deceiver is not a man. Only the False Prophet is a man. The FP and Satan have to reveal their Messiah first. Then there will be an Antichrist. But the one who is deceiving humans is Satan. This preaching on a antichrist is a false teaching. Some claim it came from Satan himself. I guess humanity is so conditioned that even godly pastors do not know what they are preaching. It just shows how deep Satan can deceive us. Many antichrist will come, but they claim to be Christ on earth first. Before an Antichrist can be revealed Satan and the FP will be revealed. Then they will present a Messiah to "save" the world. The world will need "saving" because the Lamb and His 144K disciples have been going around gathering more sheep while God’s wrath is killing all of humanity.

As for NOT knowing back in the 2nd century was ok. Their job was to spread the gospel. The great falling away has stopped the spread of the Gospel some, but humans relying on the world has turned hearts from God and to the cares of this life. We had better understand times and seasons now. The Lamb is about to change the face of this earth and reveal how Satan has deceived the whole world. By that time, the church can no longer work. The task of the church will be finished and completed. That is why it is a thief in the night. Not even the church can know. But they better be prepared and obedient now. Waiting for Satan and his Messiah is waiting for the wrong thing.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Satan is the deceiver. If you accept that, then the deceiver has been exposed. The deceiver is not a man. Only the False Prophet is a man. The FP and Satan have to reveal their Messiah first. Then there will be an Antichrist. But the one who is deceiving humans is Satan. This preaching on a antichrist is a false teaching. Some claim it came from Satan himself. I guess humanity is so conditioned that even godly pastors do not know what they are preaching. It just shows how deep Satan can deceive us. Many antichrist will come, but they claim to be Christ on earth first. Before an Antichrist can be revealed Satan and the FP will be revealed. Then they will present a Messiah to "save" the world. The world will need "saving" because the Lamb and His 144K disciples have been going around gathering more sheep while God’s wrath is killing all of humanity.

As for NOT knowing back in the 2nd century was ok. Their job was to spread the gospel. The great falling away has stopped the spread of the Gospel some, but humans relying on the world has turned hearts from God and to the cares of this life. We had better understand times and seasons now. The Lamb is about to change the face of this earth and reveal how Satan has deceived the whole world. By that time, the church can no longer work. The task of the church will be finished and completed. That is why it is a thief in the night. Not even the church can know. But they better be prepared and obedient now. Waiting for Satan and his Messiah is waiting for the wrong thing.

I don't honestly think the fear is that Christ will suddenly surprise us at an awkward moment. That problem is for unbelievers--not believers. Rather, the problem for believers is just keeping up our duty to serve Christ faithfully and to try to remain holy. This is how we're always prepared for Christ's Coming. And we don't even have to worry about when it will be. It will not surprise us at all!

 

[Keraz]

I don't honestly think the fear is that Christ will suddenly surprise us at an awkward moment. That problem is for unbelievers--not believers. Rather, the problem for believers is just keeping up our duty to serve Christ faithfully and to try to remain holy. This is how we're always prepared for Christ's Coming. And we don't even have to worry about when it will be. It will not surprise us at all!

It isn't the Return of Jesus that will be a surprise. It is the next prophesied event, His great and terrible Day of fiery wrath; the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, that we should know about and be prepared for. 2 Peter 3:1-7

 

[Bobby Jo]

But John the Baptist, didn't do what is prophesied for Elijah, he just Baptized Jesus and that's about all.
Obviously Malachi 4:5-6 is a prophecy yet to happen.

... but I would propose that the Two Witnesses are presently in their 42 months. So technically, it's not "yet to happen", but is HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.

Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

JR, our differences in our belief of what the future holds, do not mean you or I are false teachers. ...

What you BELIEVE does not make you a FALSE TEACHER. It's only when what you Teach is FALSE, that you're a FALSE TEACHER.

I do support my post with scripture and common sense, not wild sci-fi ideas ...

Nope! There's no wild CME sci-fi being promoted here!

Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

It isn't the Return of Jesus that will be a surprise. It is the next prophesied event, ...

... which I expect to be the long awaited invasion of Israel by Russia from the north; Iran from the east; and Sudan & Libya from the south.

I expected it as early as last summer, and it can't be too far away.
Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

... it is the 70th week; final 7 years before Jesus Returns ...

Silly people can't explain ANYTHING ABOUT THE REST OF THE CHAPTER, but have their views none-the-less, -- or all-the-more.
Bobby Jo