Salvation Through Baptism ???

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mailmandan

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Let's have a look at your Romans 1:16...

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Note to everyone that believeth, not to everyone that is water baptized.

The "Gospel Of Christ" is the Death, Burial, Resurrection and Ascension.
Amen! (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

To "obey the salvation plan" we MUST OBEY...
False. The gospel is not water baptized or condemned. That is a "different" gospel. The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). To “believe” the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works (including water baptism) to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them,

1. Death - Repent,
2. Burial - and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,
3. Resurrection - and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
See post #1056 on Acts 2:38. We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Water baptism is the (picture) and Spirit baptism is the (reality). As Greek scholar AT Robertson said, "A symbol is not the reality, but a picture of the reality."

Buried with him into his DEATH is to have remission of sins, with no remission you are not dead with Christ. Therefore you have NOT OBEYED the salvation plan and your "harmony of scripture" goes up in smoke.
Your misinterpretation of Romans 6:3-4 demonstrates that you have not obeyed the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16) and your "perverted water gospel" goes up in smoke.
 

Mr C

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(Eph.4:5) says there is only one baptism. (Acts 2:38,47 ; 8:5,12,13,26-40 ; 16:30-34 ; 22:16)

Any church today which teaches two baptisms (spirit baptism and water baptism) opposes the word of God.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
 

Candidus

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According to (Acts 8;5,12,13,26-40 ; 16:30-34) and (Rom.6:3-18) preaching Christ includes water immersion into Christ

The God of all creation is not so Impotent and Pathetic that He is limited to water and the hands of men to be able to save. The "god" that relies on man and water cannot save you.

Once again for the hard of hearing:

There is not a single drop of water in Romans 6, alone enough to immerse anybody!

Acts 8;5,12,13,26-40 says NOTHING about immersion, and NOTHING about "immersing into Christ."

Acts 16:30-34 says NOTHING about immersion, or any fictional "immersion into Christ" by water. In fact, when asked about what they must "do" in order to be "saved," Paul tells them! "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household"! Salvation comes by FAITH, not by WATER! Paul said so!

People get baptized because they are already saved! Not to "get" saved!

If you baptize a sinner, all you get is a wet sinner! If you baptize a believer, you have a testimony!
 
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Joseph77

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"everyone that believeth"
"obeys Jesus"
otherwise: "why do you call Me Lord, yet do not do as I say?"
then on Judgment Day "begone from Me, I never knew you" (too late to change)
 

Tong2020

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That is what I keep trying to tell you. Paul's "works" usually means "works of the law". James "works" means good works. They are completely different words with different meanings. Using them interchangeably as if they mean the same thing is a constant error found here and every forum on the internet.
You cannot generalize that with Paul nor with James. Doing so would also lead to error.

Tong
R0880
 

Joseph77

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Yahweh, Creator, Speaks to us through Jesus Messiah Savior King of the Jews.
His Kingdom is different, set apart, out from,
all society, all that is "of the world".
 

Mr C

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In the religious realm one must first hear the word of God (Rom. 1:16) (Rom. 10:17) (Jn 8:24).

Then one learns he must confess Jesus is the son of God, the need to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins to be saved (Rom.10:9,10) (Luke 13:3) (Mark 16:15,16) (Acts 2:38,47 ; 8:5,12,13,26-40 ; 16:30-34).

One is ONLY ready for baptism (in water) at the point he understands the gospel correctly and has DIED to his old man of sin (repented). When one has decided to stop willful sin one is ready for water baptism for the remission of sins. It is at this point one has died to his old lifestyle of sin.

Only then is this man a candidate for baptism (in water) for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38,47 ; 22:16) (Mark 16:15,16).


In real life there is no reason to bury a man who is alive. We only bury dead men in our cemeteries.

In most churches today they BURY PEOPLE who are ALIVE (not dead). This makes no sense at all.

Their claims one is made alive BEFORE water baptism if false.

We are to hear all Gods says on a topic and draw a conclusion based only on the word of God (Mt. 4:4)(Ps.119:160)
 
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Mr C

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The God of all creation is not so Impotent and Pathetic that He is limited to water and the hands of men to be able to save. The "god" that relies on man and water cannot save you.

Once again for the hard of hearing:

There is not a single drop of water in Romans 6, alone enough to immerse anybody!

Acts 8;5,12,13,26-40 says NOTHING about immersion, and NOTHING about "immersing into Christ."

Acts 16:30-34 says NOTHING about immersion, or any fictional "immersion into Christ" by water. In fact, when asked about what they must "do" in order to be "saved," Paul tells them! "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household"! Salvation comes by FAITH, not by WATER! Paul said so!

People get baptized because they are already saved! Not to "get" saved!

If you baptize a sinner, all you get is a wet sinner! If you baptize a believer, you have a testimony!

Well then, if (Rom. 6:3-6) is referring to Holy Spirit baptism then one is immersed into the spirit and then raised up out of the spirit.

What good would that do?
 

Joseph77

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Well then, if (Rom. 6:3-6) is referring to Holy Spirit baptism then one is immersed into the spirit and then raised up out of the spirit.

What good would that do?

Would the people finally know and realize THEN (if that were true)
that they are 'out of the spirit'
and
not in the spirit ?
 

Marymog

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Marymoog, yourself, and the rest of CC have blasphemed and twisted the words of God concerning 1 Timothy 3:15 and many other verses.

Jesus declared in John 14:6 that He is the way, the truth, and the life... Scripture does not say the Catholic church is the ground and pillar of truth. You would like it to say that though!

First, take off the log/beam in your eyes before you speak against others.

To God Be The Glory
I didn’t speak against anyone....I asked a question
 

Marymog

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Tell us about the pillar and foundation of truth. Are you referring to 1 Timothy 3:15? If so, what does the verse tell you regarding the pillar and foundation of truth? Have you not said in one of your post, that the Roman Catholic church is the pillar and foundation of truth? I don't see the passage saying what you claim there. Why do you teach that which is not written in scriptures?

Tong
R0873
Scripture says The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Which Church is it Tong? I have found that Church. Have you Tong?
 

Joseph77

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Are you a part of that humongous abomination group from rome that "blasphemed and twisted" the words of God ?
 

Joseph77

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I guess the blind think they have "found it" when they are following the blind,
and

they both go together .... one after the other, or all at once, as God Decides....
 

Marymog

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Tell us about the pillar and foundation of truth. Are you referring to 1 Timothy 3:15? If so, what does the verse tell you regarding the pillar and foundation of truth? Have you not said in one of your post, that the Roman Catholic church is the pillar and foundation of truth? I don't see the passage saying what you claim there. Why do you teach that which is not written in scriptures?

Tong
R0873
I am teaching what is in Scripture. The Church IS the pillar and foundation of truth. I feel bad for you if you haven’t found The Church that we can go to to settle our disagreement
 

Marymog

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The house/household of God, which is the church of the living God. At the time Paul wrote that to Timothy, where do you say one can find the house/household of God, the church of the living God?

Tong
R0876
That is a nonsensical answer
 

Joseph77

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So? rome's doctrines are from the pit - destroying faith and souls both.....

i.e. worse than nonsense.
 

Marymog

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Are you a part of that humongous abomination group from rome that "blasphemed and twisted" the words of God ?
There are many Protestants that agree with some of the teachings of Rome. Are they a humongous abomination group that "blasphemed and twisted" the words of God since they agree with Rome ?
 

BreadOfLife

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The Catholic position on faith and works is clear. There is no misrepresentation on my part. The Roman Catholic church clearly teaches salvation by faith AND WORKS. Period.

Works are an essential part of faith "infuses" works "into" faith and which results in faith "is" these works. That is the error that kept me tripped up prior to my conversion. I basically defined faith "as" works (just as you are now) so saved through faith became saved through faith AND WORKS. Believers are created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10) Just because God prepared these good works beforehand that we should walk in them does not mean we call them God's works, as if God did the works for us. We are the one's who accomplish these good works. We are not passive as these good works are being accomplished. Your argument is just smoke and mirrors and is a vain attempt to "get around" multiple passages of scripture that make it clear we are not saved by works and try to make those passages say we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works. Sugar coated double talk.

Seeking salvation by works is not cooperating with saving grace. We are justified by faith and have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:1-2) Hiding a treasure in a hole and doing nothing with it represents unbelief.

In other words, you rely on His finished work (at best for the most part) yet you also trust in works that you accomplish (at least in part). You teach salvation by faith AND WORKS no matter how much you try and sugar coat it.

After a casual reading of the parable of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46), one might conclude that salvation is the result of good works, yet all scripture proves itself to be non-contradictory when compared with the totality of scripture - scripture must harmonize with scripture. This passage needs to be taken alongside the whole of scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works, as you assume. That would be contrary to (Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5) etc...

One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. This is not performance based salvation, but salvation based performance. The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 is the fruit that will be manifested in the lives of the redeemed. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good works, but because righteousness was imputed to them on the basis of faith, not works. (Romans 4:2-6; Philippians 3:9). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition/basis/means of, receiving salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof), not simply on the faith from which these works follow.

So it's understandable that in this context, Matthew would stress works which are a manifestation of faith (James 2:14) by which one receives eternal life. Notice also how "practicing righteousness and love for his brother" is an indication of one's salvation status: 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. He who practices righteousness and loves his brother does so BECAUSE he is born of God not in order to become born of God. 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, because we love our brothers (present tense). Loving our brothers is the result of, not the condition of passing from death to life.
This is a textbook example of why it is virtually impossible to have an intelligent conversation with an anti-Catholic.

You read MY words – then you add YOUR meaning to them. ONE more time . . .

God gives us the grace to believe – that’s a FREE gift. OUR free will dictates whether or not we are going to cooperate with that grace. Being Baptized is our response to that grace – it is our cooperation with that grace. Like it or not – THAT’S a work, which is an essential element of faith.

We don’t “add” works to faith. Works ARE faith – just as belief is (James 2:14-26, Matt. 25:31-46, Gal. 5-6, 1 Cor. 13:1-13).
You CANNOT have faith without either one of those elements (James 2:14-26). That’s what Jesus was talking about in Matt. 25:31-46 and Paul in Gal. 5-6 and 1 Cor. 13:1-13.

We don’t “automatically” obey God throughout our lives because we are born again. We make the decision to cooperate with His grace. EVERY verse that says God gives us the strength or the perseverance to endure in faith is CONDITIONAL on the fact that we remain in Him. That’s cooperation . . .

Calvinists wrongly believe that God creates some of us for salvation - and creates the rest of us just to toss us into Hell. If that’s what YOU believe – then you have completely perverted the Gospel.
God does NOT coerce us to follow Him – OR to stay with Him. He give us the free will to do so by our own volition.

Only a monster would force His love on his subjects and drag them kicking and screaming into Heaven against their will – while he sends the rest of humanity kicking and screaming into Hell against their will. God is NOT a Calvinist monster.

Isn't it interesting that the righteous said, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ That is very humble. (unlike the Pharisee in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector - Luke 18:9-14) Then Jesus said, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers YOU DID IT TO ME.’
*Notice how it's point out the sheep are "righteous" in this parable and "as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers." Are believers accounted as righteous by faith or works? (Romans 4:2-6) For the righteous, these good works are seen by the Lord as works done in righteousness. Now what about for the unbeliever who seems to be a good humanitarian and has at times gave food and drink to the needy, clothed the naked and visited someone sick in prison? Are such people sheep or goats?
THANK YOU for proving my point.

Those people were made righteous in Christ by God’s grace – because they COOPERATED with it.

They didn’t “add” works TO their faith.
The works they did were an essential element OF their faith.
 
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