In relation to the term 'sovereign grace', a careful reading of Ephesians' first two chapters does bring a strong sense of grace being sovereign in God's wondrous workings in the sinner through the work of Christ, for His glory.
Sovereign Grace
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Grace is only sovereign in that it is the power of God over sin. So then the ONLY sovereignty of grace is that of a victory over sin.
In worldly politics there are 2 main strategies for growth and sustainability. One is stimulus and the other is austerity. Both are useful if used wisely and at the right time. Now austerity is normally embraced on the right and stimulus on the left. If a society ONLY embraces austerity then there is no growth. And if the society embraces ONLY stimulus there is no sustainability.
The same goes for grace and truth. Grace acts as a stimulus and truth acts like the austerity option.
If a given society depends on stimulus ONLY then it becomes a welfare state. People get lazy and spoiled...and remain as children where responsibility is concerned. And this is like the churches that rely on "grace alone"...or sovereign grace. Grace alone brings a welfare spoiled and childish Christianity into the world.
Where there is no grace there is only austerity...no growth. Truth alone brings stagnation.
So both are needed. We need both grace and truth working together to bring a spiritual prosperity. And God knows how to apply each in kind. Man doesn't understand or have that kind of wisdom. So people become partisan to one form or other the way people cheer for a political party or sports team. But in every case there is no wisdom at play. There is just a bent in one way or other.
How we believe affects what we perceive.
Grace can also encourage a bad practice. Should God support what isn't working? When does truth takes things to task?
Leaning too far one way causes you to be blind to what is missing from your sight.
One could think that putting more logs in the fireplace will produce more heat. And in some cases that will be true. But not in every case. There must first be a fire already going for those logs to have the desired effect.
So it is with life and the kingdom of God.
In worldly politics there are 2 main strategies for growth and sustainability. One is stimulus and the other is austerity. Both are useful if used wisely and at the right time. Now austerity is normally embraced on the right and stimulus on the left. If a society ONLY embraces austerity then there is no growth. And if the society embraces ONLY stimulus there is no sustainability.
The same goes for grace and truth. Grace acts as a stimulus and truth acts like the austerity option.
If a given society depends on stimulus ONLY then it becomes a welfare state. People get lazy and spoiled...and remain as children where responsibility is concerned. And this is like the churches that rely on "grace alone"...or sovereign grace. Grace alone brings a welfare spoiled and childish Christianity into the world.
Where there is no grace there is only austerity...no growth. Truth alone brings stagnation.
So both are needed. We need both grace and truth working together to bring a spiritual prosperity. And God knows how to apply each in kind. Man doesn't understand or have that kind of wisdom. So people become partisan to one form or other the way people cheer for a political party or sports team. But in every case there is no wisdom at play. There is just a bent in one way or other.
How we believe affects what we perceive.
Grace can also encourage a bad practice. Should God support what isn't working? When does truth takes things to task?
Leaning too far one way causes you to be blind to what is missing from your sight.
One could think that putting more logs in the fireplace will produce more heat. And in some cases that will be true. But not in every case. There must first be a fire already going for those logs to have the desired effect.
So it is with life and the kingdom of God.
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Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
That's an interesting analogy.
Yes. This is the heart of it. Many tend to preach grace only, or some modified form at the expense of obedience. A rare few will go overboard on obedience, laying aside grace almost completely. I think it is a failure to simply understand the Father in natural parenting terms. You can't be all hard on children 24/7 or they get discouraged. But you can't let them walk all over you either, or they turn into rebellious little messes. And He compared us to either sons of obedience or sons of disobedience; that we must conform ourselves to His image - how He acts, how He speaks, and does things - if we would be His sons and not the world's (or the Devil's) children any longer.
It's such a simple principle, and so natural. I don't understand the confusion sometimes.
It's as if some think the prodigal would still have been a "son" to the father forever even if he had wallowed in pig slop for the rest of His life, because "once a son always a son."
Are you saying that John is writing that the the filthy are to remain filthy throughout eternity, and the unjust also, and that these are they outside the city? Difficult to know how you mean to apply that passage.
2 Peter 3:13 "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."
Do you see unrighteousness remaining in the new heavens and new earth?
But I didn't understand if there was an answer to my question.
You've written about the faithful outside the city, and the saints in the city. What is it about the 'saints' that isn't true of the faithful? What do you see differentiating these two groups?
Much love!
The question I ask is why you think of God's love for His children as a desire to cast them into outer darkness? That's what I can never understand about what you teach.
If there is one question each of us should ask ourselves . . . IMO . . . it is this.
Am I in communion with Jesus? If you don't know the answer, then there is one thing to do. And if you do know the answer, because you are, then there is another thing.
What do you suppose is most displeasing to God among those who say they know Him? I think of Ephesians 4, that speaks of making God very sad!
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Grieve not the holy Spirit of God.
What does the apostle write? Only say that which ministers grace to the hearer. God's gift of favor in giving to us Christ, God incarnate, to bring us back to Him. And what does He say? We've been "sealed unto the day of redemption". And of anyone, God is The One most able to enforce His claim of ownership!
Give grace to the hearers. We are sealed unto the day of redemption. Don't speak in a way to make God sad.
Much love!
Have you ever considered . . . creation was an act of God's sovereign grace, and the continuance of creation is likewise an ongoing act of God's sovereign grace?
No one requires of God a creation, or humanity. God created us to share Himself with, to share His love and His goodness with us.
Pure grace!
Much love!
Do you believe that every knee will bow?
Philippians 2:10-11
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Now using the same kind of logic as you normally do...does that mean that everyone in the world will become a follower of Jesus? All Christians?
People tend to not be logical...but emotional in their interpretation. So it's about getting the story right.
You seem to be dodging the question I've asked. And want to portray me as what, illogical and emotional? You can simply not respond if you wish, you don't need to bring in some kind of personal opinion of me, it only detracts from the discussion. I know it's prevalent on this forum, but surely we can rise above that?
I've never really understood what you think about why some of God's children would be "the faithful" outside the city, and why some would be "saints", or "the bride" inside the city, what distinguishes one from the other, how it came to be that each is where they are.
And of course the question of how it would be that God would beget children so He could send them to outer darkness in shame and torment? I cannot reconcile that thought to the Creator God Whom I've come to know.
I believe everyone will bow to Jesus, even those who are cast into the eternal torment of the lake of fire.
Much love!
@marks
"All of grace, yes grace surpassing
Such a portion to bestow,
But the love, all knowledge passing,
Grace has taught us now to know.
Love that bore the stripes and sorrow,
Love that suffered on the Tree,
Love that shares the bright tomorrow
With the loved ones, you and me."
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I love this passage!
Isaiah 45
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
And as the Apostles are reading this passage in the LXX they are reading, Surely shall one say in Kurios I have I righteousness and strength. And the Apostle writes that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Kurios. And so He is!!
Much love!
Are you then proposing a limited grace? If that is the case, what are the limits of that grace, and since you are using theological terms, please back that up with Scripture in context.
How do you make that connection? There are two different realms, and one does not the other to a great extent.[/quote][/QUOTE]
Are you proposing an unlimited grace? Where do you get that from the bible? We can fall from grace and fail grace according to the bible. We can bury our talent and offend God and the spirit of grace.
So you are the one who needs to back up a preposterous claim.
Salvation is ALWAYS conditional...otherwise grace is unlimited for all men.
Do you realize that judgment begins at the house of God?
Grace is the power to walk as Jesus walked. Do you enter into that grace? It is by faith. Do you have the faith to walk as Jesus walked? What is stopping you from such a great grace?
But I think you are looking for a life that is without any responsibility. No such thing exists. The true God holds you accountable for every word and every action.....even every thought.
So you have very much strayed from any kind of biblical thinking if you think that grace means God will go easy on you.
How do you make that connection? There are two different realms, and one does not the other to a great extent.
Do you understand mercy and truth and that these are not the same?
I don't know your experience level but just ask that you do more research before you throw out sound reasoning. Many things of the kingdom can be compared to things in this world. Check out the parables of Jesus.
That's not what he's doing, he's asking you a question. It doesn't seem to me that you like answering questions much.
He's asking you to support your doctrine Biblically, like I do, and appears to be getting the same lack of answers, only misdirection, like I do.
Much love!
Reminds me of . . . tying up heavy loads.
Grace means that God will not condemn me. Grace means that Christ lives in me. Grace means that I can live in God's righteousness. Grace means my sins are gone! Grace means I'm His forever.
And don't you know . . . this is what I want.
Much love!
Reminds me of . . . tying up heavy loads.
Grace means that God will not condemn me. Grace means that Christ lives in me. Grace means that I can live in God's righteousness. Grace means my sins are gone! Grace means I'm His forever.
And don't you know . . . this is what I want.
Much love!
He who seeks to save his life will lose it. You need to lose your life to find it.
There are many false ministers who will lie through their teeth to fill in the pews. And these provide a false sense of assurance. They are assurance salesmen.
Grace gives us the potential to walk as Jesus walked. it does not make us God's favourites. Now I've said this many times...but to whom much is given MORE is required.
You have been taught untruth that makes being given grace to mean that LESS is required.
Do your own studies and seek the Lord for real. Stop trusting in men and what they teach.
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The human soul is a desperate thing. Many many modern believers are so in love with the nice sounding verses that they believe that God loves their ego as much as they do.
But God loves a different part of us. The weak inner man. NOT the ego driven outer carnal man.
So as people claim grace for themselves they fall deeper and deeper into deception.
A humble man under grace will only claim to be weak and ineffective.
But a person who is fooled by a false apprehension of grace will claim great things for himself. His self-love will soar and that will make him feel good. So that emotionally he will be satisfied with himself. The flesh latches onto salvation...making him blind to the truth.
Paul feared being cut-off...rejected...even after all he did. But the deceived one will never even give that thought a second to think over. The human heart is desperately wicked...and is filled with self-love. But God is against that kind of person. Grace does NOT cover the sinful nature of man. That nature must go to the cross.
So then people need to look to the cross BEFORE looking for the assurance of grace through faith.
What are we trying to save?
But God loves a different part of us. The weak inner man. NOT the ego driven outer carnal man.
So as people claim grace for themselves they fall deeper and deeper into deception.
A humble man under grace will only claim to be weak and ineffective.
But a person who is fooled by a false apprehension of grace will claim great things for himself. His self-love will soar and that will make him feel good. So that emotionally he will be satisfied with himself. The flesh latches onto salvation...making him blind to the truth.
Paul feared being cut-off...rejected...even after all he did. But the deceived one will never even give that thought a second to think over. The human heart is desperately wicked...and is filled with self-love. But God is against that kind of person. Grace does NOT cover the sinful nature of man. That nature must go to the cross.
So then people need to look to the cross BEFORE looking for the assurance of grace through faith.
What are we trying to save?
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What nonsense! Is that all you can think about God?
You're married, is that right?
Is all you can think about concerning your wife is that you don't want to be alone?
It's like all you seem to know is about being driven towards God by fear.
Jude wrote, some save by fear, I realize that's what some need. But he also said, some by compassion.
It's the kindness of God that leads us to repentance. God loves you. Don't discount His love, thinking you have to keep earning it.
The reality is that this also is not true, you presume things of me, feel free to speak them out, be that on your own head.
But this statement above . . . that grace is somehow a burden, I don't see that at all. Grace liberates us. Grace does not enslave us. That's what I mean about tying up heavy loads.
I say, God in His grace has given us Christ, freeing us from sin, and giving new life to live, and reconciling us to Himself. And as best as I can tell, you add to this, "and you'd better be a better person for it, or you'll lose it all!" But He is the one saving us, and He's doing it for Himself.
We are accepted in the Beloved, not on our own merits.
Much love!
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