Original Sin

[bbyrd009]

Then there is another thought related to this, what does it mean to restore us from the effect of original sin? I think we've come accross this before too . . . innocence.

Much love!

manna is not called what is it? for nothing i guess

 

[marks]

... I'm not sure...
Let me phrase things this way: a baby as committed no sin. They have no responsibility for another's sins. They are innocent until they themselves sin (and hence become a sinner themselves). An infant whom dies is saved by Christ's grace, not sentenced to torture for crimes they didn't commit.

This makes me think of the Book of Life. My understanding of the Book of Life is that at the foundation of the world, God wrote a book with all the names of the living, all who would be alive. God told Moses, the soul that sins, that one I will blot from My book. Revelation speaks of the beast worshipers, Those whose names do not remain written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

So while I see Humanity being dead because of sin, yet God still records our names, only to blot them out when sin is imputed. Of course there is the definition of sin, I would say all that falls short of God's glory. And in this the baby even does sin. In quietness and trust is our strenght, but the baby screaming for it's appointed feeding isn't really showing that.

OK, I'll probably get fried for that!



But still . . . I agree with you, that a child born into it's situation, before it understands about choices and right and wrong, that God does not hold them accountable, including them in Christ, I think that's what "justification of life" includes. That God, even though we are born with corrupted flesh, yet still gives us all life - He is upholding all life at all times - call it watering the field to obtain as great a harvest as can be, and from a single seed - and that only when a person chooses sin, knowingly disobedient, that's when this grace stops, and they are guilty.

And then either their name is blotted from the book of life, or God, in eternity, sees their faith yet to come, and their sin is not imputed. God is already working in their life, preparing, protecting, and when they do come to faith, recreating us into the new humanity, which is our justification. No longer guilty by being separated entirely from all sin, moved into the Tree of Life, Jesus.

I understand your perspective, even as I disagree with it.

I always appreciate when someone will take the time with me so I can understand their POV, and like you say, I may not agree, but I may change my mind also! I think that in sharing a faith in Jesus, we don't have to agree on everything else. If there is love, we will move closer to unity.

Two main points of disagreement:
1) You aren't condemned due to crime you didn't commit. Infinitely just God doesn't work that way.
2) There's also another huge player on the field: Christ. Through Him is salvation. And He was always planned to be there, even before the entire Garden was created. The path for salvation was/is always there.

1) seems totally intuitive! I think maybe I've come to see condemnation differently from guilt or punishment. I see condemnation more as in the Greek word Katakrino, or, discerned to be cast down. I think we understand it in terms of guilt and punishment, there is also the sense of simply something being judged as needing to be completely torn down. And I think that applies to a 'ruined humanity'.

2) Yes, I agree with your thought completely! I see this in the Tree of Life, and in the animal skins, and in the curse.

Much love!

 

[marks]

yes, and wisdom is hidden from the wise

Yes.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

This makes me think of the Book of Life. My understanding of the Book of Life is that at the foundation of the world, God wrote a book with all the names of the living, all who would be alive. God told Moses, the soul that sins, that one I will blot from My book. Revelation speaks of the beast worshipers, Those whose names do not remain written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

So while I see Humanity being dead because of sin, yet God still records our names, only to blot them out when sin is imputed. Of course there is the definition of sin, I would say all that falls short of God's glory. And in this the baby even does sin. In quietness and trust is our strenght, but the baby screaming for it's appointed feeding isn't really showing that.

OK, I'll probably get fried for that!



But still . . . I agree with you, that a child born into it's situation, before it understands about choices and right and wrong, that God does not hold them accountable, including them in Christ, I think that's what "justification of life" includes. That God, even though we are born with corrupted flesh, yet still gives us all life - He is upholding all life at all times - call it watering the field to obtain as great a harvest as can be, and from a single seed - and that only when a person chooses sin, knowingly disobedient, that's when this grace stops, and they are guilty.

And then either their name is blotted from the book of life, or God, in eternity, sees their faith yet to come, and their sin is not imputed. God is already working in their life, preparing, protecting, and when they do come to faith, recreating us into the new humanity, which is our justification. No longer guilty by being separated entirely from all sin, moved into the Tree of Life, Jesus.


I always appreciate when someone will take the time with me so I can understand their POV, and like you say, I may not agree, but I may change my mind also! I think that in sharing a faith in Jesus, we don't have to agree on everything else. If there is love, we will move closer to unity.



1) seems totally intuitive! I think maybe I've come to see condemnation differently from guilt or punishment. I see condemnation more as in the Greek word Katakrino, or, discerned to be cast down. I think we understand it in terms of guilt and punishment, there is also the sense of simply something being judged as needing to be completely torn down. And I think that applies to a 'ruined humanity'.

2) Yes, I agree with your thought completely! I see this in the Tree of Life, and in the animal skins, and in the curse.

Much love!

Thanks for your post @marks. I've enjoyed this conversation, though I don't have to much to type right here

 

[marks]

Thanks for your post @marks. I've enjoyed this conversation, though I don't have to much to type right here

When you do . . . if you want . . . I'd enjoy hearing your thoughts on what the corruption of the flesh is, exactly. If it's a topic that interests you!

Much love!

 

[Waiting on him]

well ok but again it is easy to put our own interpretation onto that, and assume that it is saying that we actually know good from evil, when it could be saying that we have merely assumed that role; iow saying "i know good from evil" does not mean i know

He said He cursed the ground for Adams sake, sometimes calamity is good?

 

[Waiting on him]

well ok but again it is easy to put our own interpretation onto that, and assume that it is saying that we actually know good from evil, when it could be saying that we have merely assumed that role; iow saying "i know good from evil" does not mean i know

In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus all Lazarus received all his life was evil and that landed him in the bosom of Abraham.

 

[bbyrd009]

He said He cursed the ground for Adams sake, sometimes calamity is good?

at the very least imo, yes

 

[Jane_Doe22]

When you do . . . if you want . . . I'd enjoy hearing your thoughts on what the corruption of the flesh is, exactly. If it's a topic that interests you!

Much love!

That's what the corruption of the flesh is two fold
- Obvious literal changes to flesh that now gets sick, gets old, has deformities, dies, etc.
- Everyone has the temptation/inclination to sin.

However, having an inclination is different than acting on it. There's nothing sinful about being tempted- even Christ was tempted by the devil. Sin happens when you give into the temptation.

 

[bbyrd009]

My understanding of the Book of Life is that at the foundation of the world, God wrote a book

fwiw it is maybe important to differentiate the world from the earth, since although they do share a synonym, Scripture generally treats them differently

 

[Waiting on him]

fwiw it is maybe important to differentiate the world from the earth, since although they do share a synonym, Scripture generally treats them differently

Yes He overcame the world not the earth.

 

[Waiting on him]

Everyone has the temptation/inclination to sin. That's what the corruption of the flesh is: the inclination.

However, having an inclination is different than acting on it. There's nothing sinful about being tempted- even Christ was tempted by the devil. Sin happens when you give into the temptation.

The body is only animated by the mind.

 

[marks]

fwiw it is maybe important to differentiate the world from the earth, since although they do share a synonym, Scripture generally treats them differently

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.



In this case, Kosmos.

 

[Davy]

1 Corinthians 15
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
....

You're missing the time back further, before Adam and Eve. Their sin was the very first flesh sin, but not the very first sin though.

Like Apostle John said, "... the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil." (1 John 3:8)

Per Hebrews 2:14, the power of death was assigned to the devil. Jesus came to die on the cross that through death He might destroy the devil who has the power of death.

When did that happen, when death was assigned to the devil, because in Ezekiel 28, God gives us a parable about a time when Satan was originally perfect in his ways, serving God at His throne as a covering cherub guarding God's throne? It happened prior to the time of Adam and Eve.

So just because God's Word doesn't start off in Genesis 1 about that old world when Satan was once perfect in following God, it doesn't mean His Word omits description about it.

 

[charity]

as long as you insist upon reading literally anyway, yeh

'And the LORD God commanded the man, saying,
Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,
thou shalt not eat of it:
for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.'
(Gen 2:16-17)

Hello @bbyrd009,

Why should @Prayer Warrior not take what is written literally?

Adam was given the commandment directly from God: Eve must have received it from Adam. In her response to Satan's question, 'Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?' She said, ' We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.' She made the mistake that we are all capable of making: she did not quote God's words correctly; but leaned to her own understanding; adding and embellishing God's words in the process; thereby leaving herself open to the master of all deceit, who knows how to handle the word of God deceitfully in order to beguile and deceive the unwary.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

Paul said concerning himself and his ministry, and that of those who ministered with him:-

'Therefore seeing we have this ministry,
.. as we have received mercy, we faint not;
.... But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty,
...... not walking in craftiness,
........ nor handling the word of God deceitfully;
.......... but by manifestation of the truth
............ commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
.. In whom the god of this world
.... hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,
...... lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ,
........ who is the image of God,
.......... should shine unto them.'
For we preach not ourselves,
.. but Christ Jesus the Lord;
.... and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.'
(2 Cor. 4:1-5)

Praise God!

 

[Davy]

The sin in God's Garden of Eden had... to happen, because according to Paul we all have been concluded under sin, so that Christ's Salvation would be to those who believe.

Gal 3:22
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
KJV

I catch some brethren wrongly thinking that there can be Salvation in the flesh, simply by their thinking of the state of innocence that Adam and Eve were in their flesh before they sinned. In the Book of Romans, Apostle Paul showed that our flesh is one of the main causes of sin, and that he that is dead is freed from sin. It points to how it was just a matter of time when Adam and Eve would sin, and thus the reason for Christ being born to die on the cross for us ordained before the foundation of the world, pointing to the old world when Satan caused the very first sin.

In Revelation 20:14 we are told 'death' is cast into the future "lake of fire", and in Revelation 21:4 there shall be no more 'death'. That means God's creation can... exist without... the concept of death! Imagine that for a moment. That Truth doesn't fit this present world at all! So was there a time before... this present world when the concept of death did not exist? Mostly likely, yes, before Satan rebelled against God in coveting His throne in that old world. And thus per Hebrews 2, the power of death has been assigned to Satan. When he is destroyed, death will be destroyed with him, and be no more.

 

[bbyrd009]

Why should @Prayer Warrior not take what is written literally?

well, not saying "dont" ok bc that is not for me to say, but i can say that when what yall are discussing as ancient history is applied to our lives, today, and the symbolism of "fruit" and "tree" and etc is applied, the guessing about an ancient history that likely never happened anyway just sort of becomes moot imo.

we get plenty of clues that Adam and Eve were "one," and i suggest that eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge is something we all do, in the West anyway, as opposed to eating manna, what is it?, which im sure you can agree even sounds opposite to "tree of knowledge"

Adam was given the commandment directly from God: Eve must have received it from Adam.

ok we do understand that there were no witnesses to this supposed "historical event," right

im not really interested in preventing ppl from reading literally if they like, but we have plenty of evidence now, overwhelming evidence, that most of those things we read in the OT likely never literally happened; so i suggest putting away the childish things here, and trying to change the mind completely, and grasping what was meant rather than what was literally written, to hide wisdom from the wise.

One can still believe a literal woman bit an apple from a literal tree if they like, and still contemplate other, more pertinent to us possibilities, imo

 

[Candidus]

From time to time, the Holy Spirit leads me to read through Genesis. I believe it was one of those times that I noticed the words "her husband with her" implying that Adam was standing right there.

1 Timothy 2:14 says, "Adam was not beguiled, but the woman being beguiled hath fallen into transgression."

Couple that with "being with her" in Genesis implies much. First, to suggest that Adam was not beguiled, infers that Adam was also tempted by the serpent in the same way. The two passages together would imply a single event, not two separate occurrences.

 

[Candidus]

I catch some brethren wrongly thinking that there can be Salvation in the flesh, simply by their thinking of the state of innocence that Adam and Eve were in their flesh before they sinned.

In Scripture, the idea of Flesh on its own seems to be aligned with the absence of spirituality.

We are born of the flesh; we are not born spiritual. "We were by nature children of wrath" [Eph. 2:3].

Paul uses the term "Sinful flesh" as a synonym for "human nature."

In John 3:6, where Jesus replied, "That which is born of flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." "That which is born of flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3: 3, 6, 7). John gives us no indication that that which is born of the flesh (infants) are birthed spiritual. Paul writes that Jesus Himself, came in the likeness of sinful flesh (Rom.8:3), yet was not actually birthed with a fallen flesh. Keep in mind, Jesus "came" as a baby, but only in the likeness of sinful flesh. To say that all infants do not inherit a sinful disposition, or that they are born spiritual, is to say that Jesus coming in the likeness of sinful flesh was not anything unique at all. John's record is clear that no man is born anything other than the flesh. All must be born of the Spirit in order to be spiritually fit for heaven.