Regardless: why the big focus on this particular issue, versus all of the other possible ones?
Perpetual virginity of Mary!
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Eternally Grateful
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Matthew 2:2
Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
John 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
John 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
And God was with mankind working through his only Begotten Son.
Matthew 1:23: “‘Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanʹu-el’ (which means, God with us [“God is with us,” NE]).”
In announcing Jesus’ coming birth, did Jehovah’s angel say that the child would be God himself? No, the announcement was: “He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High.” (Luke 1:32, 35, RS
And Jesus himself never claimed to be God but, rather, “the Son of God.” (John 10:36, RS;) Jesus was sent into the world by God; so by means of this only-begotten Son, God was with mankind.—John 3:17; 17:8.Isaiah said: “Look! The maiden herself will actually become pregnant, and she is giving birth to a son, and she will certainly call his name Immanuel. . . . Before the boy will know how to reject the bad and choose the good, the ground of whose two kings you are feeling a sickening dread [Syria and Israel] will be left entirely.” (Isa. 7:14, 16) The first part of that prophecy is often applied to the birth of the Messiah, and rightly so. (Matt. 1:23) However, since the “two kings,” the king of Syria and the king of Israel, were no longer a threat to Judah in the first century C.E., the prophecy about Immanuel must have had an initial fulfillment in Isaiah’s day. Now was that person who was an imperfect human during Isaiah day, God, simply because he was given the name Immanuel, I don't think so. Also when the scriptures say that no one has seen God at anytime, that's the truth.
I believe that the best way to learn the truth about Jesus is to examine what he said about himself.
Jesus said at John 6:38- “I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.” Now, that statement is a bit puzzling if Jesus were God. Jesus said he did not come down from heaven to do his own will. He said that he came to do the will of the One who sent him. If Jesus is God, who sent him down from heaven? And why did Jesus yield to the will of that person?
He made a similar statement in the next chapter.
At John 7:16 Jesus said: "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me." So did Jesus teach his own ideas? No, he said that his teachings belong to the One who sent him. I have to wonder: ‘Who sent Jesus? And who gave him the truths he taught?’ Wouldn’t that One be greater than Jesus? After all, the sender is superior to the one who is sent.
Consider, too, Jesus’ words at John 14:28: “You heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming back to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.” Based on that verse, how would you say Jesus viewed himself in relation to the Father? Jesus viewed God as his superior. Another example, notice what Jesus told his disciples as recorded at Matthew 28:18. That verse says: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.” So did Jesus say that he always had all authority? God has always had all authority. So why did Jesus say all authority in heaven and on Earth has been given to him when the True God has always had all authority in heaven and on Earth? Since people say Jesus is God but the scriptures show that Jesus was given more authority who gave him more authority? God, but people say Jesus is God.
Here’s something else to consider: We’ve read that Jesus spoke of God as his heavenly Father. And when Jesus was baptized, a voice from heaven referred to Jesus as His Son. In fact, Jesus specifically called himself God’s Son. Now, if you wanted to teach me that two people are equal, what sort of family relationship might you use to illustrate the point? Two brothers? Perhaps identical twins? But Jesus referred to God as the Father and to himself as the Son. So, what message do you suppose Jesus is conveying? It seems to me Jesus is describing one individual as being older and as having more authority than the other.
Think about this: If person came up with such a fitting illustration of equality, that of brothers or twins. If Jesus really were God, don’t you think that Jesus, as the Great Teacher, would have thought of the same comparison—or an even clearer example of equality if that was what Jesus was teaching? But, instead, he used the terms “Father” and “Son” to describe his relationship with God, not one of equality.
If Jesus truly is God, wouldn’t you expect that Jesus’ disciples would have plainly said so?
Yet, nowhere in the Scriptures do we read of their teaching that. On the contrary, notice what one of Jesus’ early followers, the apostle Paul, wrote. At Philippians 2:9, he describes what God did after Jesus’ death and resurrection: “God exalted him [Jesus] to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name.” According to this verse, what did God do for Jesus? Doesn't the scriptures say God exalted him to a superior position?
But if Jesus were equal to God before he died and God later exalted him to a higher position, wouldn’t that put Jesus above God? How could anyone be superior to God?
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
JW propoganda?And God was with mankind working through his only Begotten Son.
Matthew 1:23: “‘Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanʹu-el’ (which means, God with us [“God is with us,” NE]).”
In announcing Jesus’ coming birth, did Jehovah’s angel say that the child would be God himself? No, the announcement was: “He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High.” (Luke 1:32, 35, RS
Isaiah said: “Look! The maiden herself will actually become pregnant, and she is giving birth to a son, and she will certainly call his name Immanuel. . . . Before the boy will know how to reject the bad and choose the good, the ground of whose two kings you are feeling a sickening dread [Syria and Israel] will be left entirely.” (Isa. 7:14, 16) The first part of that prophecy is often applied to the birth of the Messiah, and rightly so. (Matt. 1:23) However, since the “two kings,” the king of Syria and the king of Israel, were no longer a threat to Judah in the first century C.E., the prophecy about Immanuel must have had an initial fulfillment in Isaiah’s day. Now was that person who was an imperfect human during Isaiah day, God, simply because he was given the name Immanuel, I don't think so. Also when the scriptures say that no one has seen God at anytime, that's the truth.
I believe that the best way to learn the truth about Jesus is to examine what he said about himself.
Jesus said at John 6:38- “I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.” Now, that statement is a bit puzzling if Jesus were God. Jesus said he did not come down from heaven to do his own will. He said that he came to do the will of the One who sent him. If Jesus is God, who sent him down from heaven? And why did Jesus yield to the will of that person?
He made a similar statement in the next chapter.
At John 7:16 Jesus said: "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me." So did Jesus teach his own ideas? No, he said that his teachings belong to the One who sent him. I have to wonder: ‘Who sent Jesus? And who gave him the truths he taught?’ Wouldn’t that One be greater than Jesus? After all, the sender is superior to the one who is sent.
Consider, too, Jesus’ words at John 14:28: “You heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming back to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.” Based on that verse, how would you say Jesus viewed himself in relation to the Father? Jesus viewed God as his superior. Another example, notice what Jesus told his disciples as recorded at Matthew 28:18. That verse says: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.” So did Jesus say that he always had all authority? God has always had all authority. So why did Jesus say all authority in heaven and on Earth has been given to him when the True God has always had all authority in heaven and on Earth? Since people say Jesus is God but the scriptures show that Jesus was given more authority who gave him more authority? God, but people say Jesus is God.
Here’s something else to consider: We’ve read that Jesus spoke of God as his heavenly Father. And when Jesus was baptized, a voice from heaven referred to Jesus as His Son. In fact, Jesus specifically called himself God’s Son. Now, if you wanted to teach me that two people are equal, what sort of family relationship might you use to illustrate the point? Two brothers? Perhaps identical twins? But Jesus referred to God as the Father and to himself as the Son. So, what message do you suppose Jesus is conveying? It seems to me Jesus is describing one individual as being older and as having more authority than the other.
Think about this: If person came up with such a fitting illustration of equality, that of brothers or twins. If Jesus really were God, don’t you think that Jesus, as the Great Teacher, would have thought of the same comparison—or an even clearer example of equality if that was what Jesus was teaching? But, instead, he used the terms “Father” and “Son” to describe his relationship with God, not one of equality.
If Jesus truly is God, wouldn’t you expect that Jesus’ disciples would have plainly said so?
Yet, nowhere in the Scriptures do we read of their teaching that. On the contrary, notice what one of Jesus’ early followers, the apostle Paul, wrote. At Philippians 2:9, he describes what God did after Jesus’ death and resurrection: “God exalted him [Jesus] to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name.” According to this verse, what did God do for Jesus? Doesn't the scriptures say God exalted him to a superior position?
But if Jesus were equal to God before he died and God later exalted him to a higher position, wouldn’t that put Jesus above God? How could anyone be superior to God?
I don’t ready cuts and paste man
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Actually it's God word but you're not interested in what Jesus himself says are you? What he says is against what you believe, right?
And that is correct.
Jesus was the second person of the Trinity, Son of the Father.
Begotten not made! Uncreated eternal God!
All those in cults have a bunker mentality! Always fell they are being attacked personally!
All those in cults have a bunker mentality! Always fell they are being attacked personally!
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Nowhere did the Holy Spirit inspire men to write down that the Only Begotten Son of God was the second person of the Trinity.
Doesn't mean that he wasn't.
It was dogmatically decided at the Council of Nicaea in 325AD
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I posted about three OT passages and Jesus words himself that showed otherwise.
and you did not cut and paste the Bible you cut and pasted a commentary.
news flash, whoever wrote it is wrong,
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Autocorrect it should say deity, but I am sure if you were honest you would have seen this,
your attitude sucks dude, get over yourself
then explain how Mary having sex as god instituted with her husband after Jesus died would take away from his deity,
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
At Exodus 3:14 the Hebrew word translated "I AM" is "Ehyéh." We must remember though, that when Jesus spoke to those Jews, he spoke to them in the Hebrew of his day, not in Greek. How Jesus said John 8:58 to the Jews is therefore presented to us in the modern translations. In these Hebrew translations the Hebrew words aní hayíthi which are a pronoun and a verb are used which when translated into english is, "I have been." They do not use the one Hebrew word: "Ehyéh" which when used is translated, "I AM." So they do not make out that in John 8:58 Jesus was trying to imitate Jehovah God and give us the impression that he himself was Jehovah, the I AM.
Now let's go to the Greek language of John 8:58 here in the Greek text the controversial expression is "Egó eimí. Just by itself, without any introductory material ahead of it, Egó eimí means “I am.” Now this expression Egó eimí occurs also in John 8:24, 28; and in those verses the Authorized or King James Version and the Douay Version and others render the expression into English as “I am he,” the pronoun he being put in italics to indicate that the pronoun he is added or inserted. But here, in John 8:58, those versions do not render this same expression as “I am he,” but only as “I am.” They evidently want to give us the idea that Jesus was not simply referring to his existence but also giving himself a title that belongs to Jehovah God, in imitation of Exodus 3:14.
When writing John 8:58, the apostle was not quoting from the Greek Septuagint Version, a translation of the Hebrew Scriptures made by Greek-speaking Jews of Alexandria, Egypt, before the birth of Christ. Let anyone who reads Greek compare John 8:58 in Greek and Exodus 3:14 in the Greek Septuagint, and he will find that the Septuagint reading of Exodus 3:14 does not use the expression Egó eimí for God’s name, when God says to Moses: “I AM hath sent me unto you.” The Greek Septuagint uses the expression ho Ōn, which means “The Being,” or, “The One who is.” This fact is clearly presented to us in Bagster’s translation of the Greek Septuagint, at Exodus 3:14, which reads: “And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING [ho Ōn]; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING [ho Ōn] has sent me to you.” According to Charles Thomson’s translation of the Greek Septuagint, Exodus 3:14 reads: “God spoke to Moses saying, I am The I Am [ho Ōn]. Moreover he said, Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel, The I Am [ho Ōn] hath sent me to you.” Thus this comparison of the two Greek texts, that of the Septuagint and that of John 8:58, removes all basis for trinitarians to argue that Jesus, in John 8:58, was trying to fit Exodus 3:14 to himself, as if he was Jehovah God.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
As I said you could care less what Jesus says about his relationship he has with his Father who is God. Those scriptures that I quoted where it's Jesus himself talking, you can care less about them. As long as that is who you are, think what you want, say what you want, but you're going to always contradict Jesus himself and say something that God's Holy Spirit didn't even inspire men to write down, that's who you are. To think that a imperfect person thinks his/her thoughts are what's more important than what God's Holy Spirit inspired men to write down, typical of people like you.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Your attitude is not much better. Non of the passages you posted proves Jesus was not there in the begining with the father and through him creation was created
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