Jesus isn't Catholic

[BreadOfLife]

If i May.

because you are placing them equal to God, omnipresent, with the ability to hear all things

The saints in Heaven can only hear what God allows them to hear.
If He allows them to hear multiple pleas for prayer simultaneously - it's because with God, ALL things are possible (Matt. 19:26).

Why would you try to limit God?

 

[justbyfaith]

The saints in Heaven can only hear what God allows them to hear.
If He allows them to hear multiple pleas for prayer simultaneously - it's because with God, ALL things are possible (Matt. 19:26).

Why would you try to limit God?

Why would you attempt to make God do something that He doesn't do in order to fit your doctrine?

Why do you need the saints?

God is Omniscient and hears your every prayer; there is no need to go to a saint in order to get the answer to your prayers.

How much better is that than requiring God to infer God-like capabilities on those who are already dead?

 

[Taken]

That's great.
Now show me the verse of Scripture that explicitly says that the Church will NEVER have a title.

Christ's Church was established by Christ.
Christ's Church IS His Church.

Matt 16
[18] ...I will build my church...

The Church eventually had a Title and as I've shown you - by the end of the 1st century, that title was "The Catholic Church".

Eventually?
Uh, Christ's Church was already Titled:
The Church OF God.

Acts 20:
[28] Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

The Church Jesus purchased with His Own Blood...
Clearly: The Church OF God.

Jesus Himself identified the Holy Father, IS His Father...."according TO John himself," (whom this John, you identify as Ignatius' teacher).

John 17:
[11] And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

1 Cor 11:
[16] But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the Churches of God.

I find Contention, repeatedly, in numerous things... OF your Catholic Church ...

To Name a few:
* arrogantly claiming, your Catholic Church is "IS the ONLY True Church".
* Arrogantly claiming, Churches without the "Catholic Approved title", are unworthy to be "counted among, The Churches of God."
* Even going to Arrogant depth of BERATING,
Churches OF God, that do NOT, yield to the "catholic church" Title.
* Appointment OF of an Earthly man, as "the Catholic Churches...holy father," and he called the same and bowed down to.
* Appointment of "oversears" of your Catholic Church...who have never been an "overseer" of his own family.

1 Tim 3:
[5] (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?

And while you repeatedly Berate "Churches of God", your "Catholic holy father", Agreed in Feb 2019, to a new agreement, for your Catholic church, to become Yoked with....Sunni Muslims...CHRISLAM
( under the guise of....."PEACE").

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

The saints in Heaven can only hear what God allows them to hear.
If He allows them to hear multiple pleas for prayer simultaneously - it's because with God, ALL things are possible (Matt. 19:26).

Why would you try to limit God?

Why do you PRESUME, Bodily Alive men can Communicate, with souls in Heaven?

Saints...ON Earth; ARE Bodily Alive, Communicate, and PRAY FOR and WITH one another....NOT TO eachother.

Saints...IN Heaven; PRAY FOR the Saints ON Earth....without Being some sort of an intercessory...taking "Prayer requests"...from Bodily Alive men.

No where does Scripture Teach For Bodily Alive men ... to Communicate with Saved Souls in Heaven...

PRAY FOR one another....NOT TO one another.

James 5:
[16] Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The saints in Heaven can only hear what God allows them to hear.
If He allows them to hear multiple pleas for prayer simultaneously - it's because with God, ALL things are possible (Matt. 19:26).

Why would you try to limit God?

Only if god allows.

lol scripture please?

 

[Taken]

There are 5 fundamental biblical points that justbyfaith, Behold, Taken, and their ilk continually duck:

(1) I repeat: in both Hebrew ("amunah") and Greek (("Pistis") the word translated "faith" also means faithfulness." That in itself means that we are saved not by an act of belief or trust, but by a new way of being--or, as Paul puts it, by becoming "a new creation in Christ Jesus (2 Cor. 5:17)."

Oops...You made a direct Claim...I duck the Issues of Faith and Faithful...? Uh no.

That is False...but since I do not presume you have read everything I have posted...

I will clear up your false allegation.

"Faith" is a Gift of God.
Eph 2:
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God [/B]

The Gift of Faith "cometh" TO a man, by that man Hearing (the Word of God).

Rom 10:17
[17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

All men begin their Natural Born Life...NOT in Belief IN God!
A man Hearing the Word of God: is that man's Beginning of Learning About God.
A man hearing, the Word of God...
* IS Blessed BY God, with measures of FAITH.(even a measure compared to a Tiny mustard seed).
* Keep Hearing the Word of God...KEEP receiving the INCREASE, of knowledge About God....oh ya...and the INCREASE of Gods Gift of Faith!!!
* Stop Hearing...Stop Receiving Gods Gift of Faith.
(So ... not complicated...Hear, the Word of God...God Blesses the individual with His Gift of Faith...Stop hearing...well DUH...Gods Gift of Faith, STOPS being GIVEN, that individual)

IN Context THAT ^ has Nothing to DO...with a man's, Faith- Fullness.

* It is God who IS Faithful to His Own Word.
* It is God who Gifts a man (who is Hearing Gods Word) with Faith.
* it is man's Freewill, to Continue to Receive Gods Gift of Faith...OR Not, (the "OR Not" man Being Called, having Fallen (away) From Faith.
* For the man WHO exercises his Own Freewill TO Continue Hearing the Word of God...
* DUH...^ that man CONTINUES, receiving Gods Gift of Faith.
* DUH...The Gift of Faith a man Receives, IS an INCREASE of Faith!
* It IS the INCREASE of Gods Gift of Faith...upon INCREASE of Gods Gift of Faith ...
THAT...is FILLING that Individual man...with the INCREASE of Gods Gift of Faith.

* a man (IN his own Natural Sin) Being Filled with Gods Gift of Faith...in Preparation, For That man (IN His Own Natural Sin)...
TO:
Make his OWN "Confession and Commitment" TO: ONLY Having Faith IN:
The Lord God Almighty.

* A man's own "word (from his Hearts thoughts), of "Confession and Commitment" To the Lord God Almighty...
IS fully Accepted, By the Faithful Lord God Almighty...

* And Forward to that man, IS Gods Faithful Promise...that that man's "word of Confession and Commitment OF Faith Full-ness To the Lord God Almighty"...will Forever BE KEPT UNTO that man...BY the Power of God.

See? a man can receive Faith from God...and men can Fall from receiving Faith from God...
But a man with just a small measure of Faith From God...By a Heartful Confession and Commitment...that man Will Forever BE Kept Faithful...TO ONLY, The Lord God Almighty.

So your false claim...is simply False.
Not a big secret, Faith is a Gift from God.
A man Freely Chooses TO make a Confession and Commitment to God...(or not).
A man who CHOOSES to MAKE a heartfelt, commitment TO the Lord God...
Becomes A Faithful man, TO Only the Lord God, Once and Forever.

Your 1st claim against me is False!

Taken

 

[Taken]

There are 5 fundamental biblical points that justbyfaith, Behold, Taken, and their ilk continually duck:

(2) Catholics can agree that, rightly understood, we are saved by grace alone in the sense that good works can't merit our salvation apart from grace. Put differently, our Fundamentalist posters don't get the philosophical distinction between necessary and sufficient conditions. Good works are a necessary condition for salvation (See e. g. James 2:14), but not a sufficient condition; we still need faith and grace. It is precisely because James teaches the essential role of works that Luther dismissed James as "an epistle of straw," whereas Catholics continued to view it as God's Word.

Grace of God and Faith of God are Gifts From God Given a man, THROUGH Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 1:4

Put differently, our Fundamentalist posters don't get the philosophical distinction between necessary and sufficient conditions.

LOL...
You begin YOUR 1st point, by identifying YOUR "fundamental point"...then your 2nd point is bashing those with Fundamental Views!
LOL

Then you continue with trying to justify YOUR "fundamental point", with "Philosophical" mumbo jumbo!

I have no consideration for philosophies of men...in an attempt to obfuscate...
The Facts.

God Expressly Offers His Blessings and Gifts to men, and Expressly Notifies men, HOW men can Receive Gods Blessings and Gifts...
Which is Expressly THROUGH, Jesus Christ.

Without a man receiving Gods Gift of Faith...there IS no Salvation Offered to that man.

Lest you Forget... Jesus will Sit in Judgement over the People of All nations...

BY your contention...Jesus can not give a damned unsaved soul in Hell...Grace of God.

Personally, I believe, "By Gods Grace", Many unsaved souls (LIFE in their soul Shall Return to God, and their Lifeless Body, and Lifeless Soul...shall be Destroyed...feeling Nothing Forever)...

 

[Taken]

There are 5 fundamental biblical points that justbyfaith, Behold, Taken, and their ilk continually duck:

(3) The word "Catholic" (universal) became the first-century designation of the global church when the faith spread far enough after the apostolic age to become meaningfully universal throughout the Mediterranean world. The issue is not the Church's name, but that the clarification of basic doctrines took centuries. The term "Catholic" was also used to distinguish the widespread doctrinal consensus from local heresies like various forms of Gnosticism.

"Church of God," was a sufficiant term Used DURING The Apostolic Age.

Go "into All the World", and Preach the Gospel, was sufficient, DURING The Apostolic Age.

Really? Men find it necessary to "tweak", the Word of God?

1 Cor 11:
[22] What? ...despise ye the church of God?

Matt 16:
[15] And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Only if god allows.

lol scripture please?

Rev. 5:8, for starters. the Elders in Heave are interceding on our behalf by TAKING our prayers to God.
How many prayers? It doesn't say - but there are billions of people on earth praying.

ALL this is done in Christ - and with God NOTHING is impossible (Matt. 19:26).

 

[BreadOfLife]

Why do you PRESUME, Bodily Alive men can Communicate, with souls in Heaven?

Saints...ON Earth; ARE Bodily Alive, Communicate, and PRAY FOR and WITH one another....NOT TO eachother.

Saints...IN Heaven; PRAY FOR the Saints ON Earth....without Being some sort of an intercessory...taking "Prayer requests"...from Bodily Alive men.

No where does Scripture Teach For Bodily Alive men ... to Communicate with Saved Souls in Heaven...

PRAY FOR one another....NOT TO one another.

James 5:
[16] Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Glory to God,
Taken

Because,as I have stated MANY time on this thread - we see it in Scripture.
In Rev. 5:8 the Elders in Heave are interceding on our behalf by TAKING our prayers to God.

This isn't something that Catholics just "made up" - it's the Word of GOD.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Christ's Church was established by Christ.
Christ's Church IS His Church.

Matt 16
[18] ...I will build my church...

Eventually?
Uh, Christ's Church was already Titled:
The Church OF God.

Acts 20:
[28] Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

The Church Jesus purchased with His Own Blood...
Clearly: The Church OF God.

Jesus Himself identified the Holy Father, IS His Father...."according TO John himself," (whom this John, you identify as Ignatius' teacher).

John 17:
[11] And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

1 Cor 11:
[16] But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the Churches of God.

I find Contention, repeatedly, in numerous things... OF your Catholic Church ...

To Name a few:
* arrogantly claiming, your Catholic Church is "IS the ONLY True Church".
* Arrogantly claiming, Churches without the "Catholic Approved title", are unworthy to be "counted among, The Churches of God."
* Even going to Arrogant depth of BERATING,
Churches OF God, that do NOT, yield to the "catholic church" Title.
* Appointment OF of an Earthly man, as "the Catholic Churches...holy father," and he called the same and bowed down to.
* Appointment of "oversears" of your Catholic Church...who have never been an "overseer" of his own family.

1 Tim 3:
[5] (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?

And while you repeatedly Berate "Churches of God", your "Catholic holy father", Agreed in Feb 2019, to a new agreement, for your Catholic church, to become Yoked with....Sunni Muslims...CHRISLAM
( under the guise of....."PEACE").

Glory to God,
Taken

That goes to show how little you understand Scripture.

The Church is known by MANY descriptions in the NY – but they are just that – DESCRIPTIONS . . .

Bride of Christ
Revelation 21:9

Body of Christ
Ephesians 1:22-23

Church of the Living God
1 Timothy 3:15

Church of the first-born
Hebrews 12:23

Flock of God
1 Peter 5:2

God's building
1 Corinthians 3:9

House of God
1 Timothy 3:15

Pillar and ground of the truth
1 Timothy 3:15

House of Christ
Hebrews 3:6

 

[Berserk]

Taken: "I have no consideration for philosophies of men...in an attempt to obfuscate..."

LOL. You have obviously never taken a course on philosophical Logic because you unwittingly just admitted you "have no consideration" for critical thinking. What is it about the distinction between necessary and sufficient conditions that you don't understand? As usual, your cherry-picking prompts you to duck the verses that decisively refute your claim. Let's consider just 4 such verses:

(1) "What good is it, brethren, if a man says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him (James2:14)." This rhetorical question assumes that the answer is an emphatic "No!" and that faith is a process.

(2) "I by my works will show you my faith (2:18)." The process of faith is identified by the meaning of the Hebrew ("amunah") and Greek ("pistis") words--"faithfulness." You act as if Jesus and Paul spoke in King James English! You need to study the biblical languages or at least buy the standard biblical Hebrew and Greek dictionaries; and you need to recognize that the Bible cannot be accurately translated into English because there is often no one-to-one correspondence between Hebrew or Greek and the translating English word.

(3) Paul's central Gospel message is, "The just shall live by faithfulness (Romans 1:17, citing Habakkuk 2:4, where "amunah" means "faithfulness."
Paul's clear use of "pistis" in Rom. 3:3 further confirms the nuance "faithfulness' in 1:17.

(4) "Work out (exergazomai") your own salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:13)." The Greek means "work to accomplish" and "with fear and trembling" implies the need to recognize that your attempt at faithfulness might be inadequate. Does Paul concede that his own efforts might be inadequate? He acknowledges the possibility: "I don't even judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself. But I am not therebv acuqitte acquitted (1 Cor. 4:3-4)." But Paul finds reassurance in the fact that God helps us persevere in our faithfulness: "For it is God at work in you both to will and to work for for His good pleasure (Phil. 2:13b)."

Taken: "The Facts. "Faith" is a Gift of God. Eph 2: [8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God [/B]

No, that text teaches that salvation is a gift of God. Yes, God takes the intiative, but we must strive for a faithful response.

Taken: ""Church of God," was a sufficiant term Used DURING The Apostolic Age."
But not sufficient once Gnosticism became widespread. Then the church consensus indicated by the word "Catholic" (+ "universal") became important.

Taken: "Go "into All the World", and Preach the Gospel, was sufficient, DURING The Apostolic Age."

Duh, but the apostles were unable to go "into all the [Mediterranean] world" in their generation.

 

[justbyfaith]

and you need to recognize that the Bible cannot be accurately translated into English because there is often no one-to-one correspondence between Hebrew or Greek and the translating English word.

I consider that God is both Omnipotent and sovereign and loving; and therefore He would preserve His unadulterated message in the language in which He has given us His word.

The scribes and Pharisees, who were educated, rejected Jesus and His message; while the common people, who were uneducated, received Him gladly.

To say therefore that only those who are educated in understanding the original languages can have the word of God in its unadulterated form, is contrary to what we know of God's heart.

(4) "Work out (exergazomai") your own salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12 <fify>)." The Greek means "work to accomplish"

No it does not. It means "to work out" as with a math problem.

Thus 2 Peter 1:10 is a perfect reiteration of Philippians 2:12.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Why would you attempt to make God do something that He doesn't do in order to fit your doctrine?
Why do you need the saints?
God is Omniscient and hears your every prayer; there is no need to go to a saint in order to get the answer to your prayers.
How much better is that than requiring God to infer God-like capabilities on those who are already dead?

The BETTER question is:
Why does God USE the saints in heaven to bring our prayers to Him, as described in Rev. 5:8?

Can you you answer that?

 

[justbyfaith]

In Revelation 5:8, the four beasts and the twenty-four elders bear golden vials full of odours that are the prayers of the saints on earth. I don't know why God uses them to bear the odours in the golden vials. Maybe you have an answer?

I do know that the twenty-four elders do not pray those prayers themselves; as though they were prayed to them first and then they prayed them to the Lord in heaven; as if the twenty-four elders praying them all over again would equal power with God in heaven. The prayers of the saints on earth are borne directly to God and carried in the golden vials to God in the golden vials directly to God.

That the prayers of the saints are carried in golden vials to God also in no way means that the twenty-four elders are mediators between God and men. Perhaps they are mediators in that they are members of the body of Christ; but we also know that the Man Christ Jesus is the ONE mediator between God and men. As such, it is the Person of the Son of God as a singular Person who mediates.

 

[Taken]

Because,as I have stated MANY time on this thread - we see it in Scripture.
In Rev. 5:8 the Elders in Heave are interceding on our behalf by TAKING our prayers to God.

This isn't something that Catholics just "made up" - it's the Word of GOD.

Rev 5:8
[8] And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

I see nothing in this verse about men ON Earth praying TO beasts or TO twenty elders in Heaven.

Try again.

 

[Berserk]

Berserk: Philippians 2:12:" The Greek means "work to accomplish"

justbyfaith: "No it does not. It means "to work out" as with a math problem."

"No, as usual your false pontification is based on your ignorance of Greek. First, , "exergazomai" comes from "erga," the noun for "works" as in good works.
Second, "katergazomai" means "work out" in the sense of "accomplish," not "calculate."
Third, it is precisely because Paul commands us to accomplish or implement our salvation that he reconizes the uncertainty of this venture and warns that this task must be pursued with Pfear and trembling."

Berserk: "...and you need to recognize that the Bible cannot be accurately translated into English because there is often no one-to-one correspondence between Hebrew or Greek and the translating English word."

justbyfaith: "God...would preserve His unadulterated message in the language in which He has given us His word."

First, that didn't happen, for one reason, because there is no one-to-one correspondence between many Hebrew or Greek words and the English words used to translate them.
Second, I'm not talking about preservation of the original Hebrew and Greek biblical texts. But all Bible scholars agree that we don't have the original wording of all the texts. Consider this: there are 10 million variant readings in these Hebrew and Greek manuscripts! And the KJV text is based on the latest and therefore the most corrupt manuscripts.

justbyfaith: "I do know that the twenty-four elders do not pray those prayers themselves."

And just how do you know that? As usual, you duck the fact that deceased martyrs in heaven intercede with God in a prayer for justice and vindication.

justbyfaith: "The prayers of the saints on earth are borne directly to God and carried in the golden vials to God in the golden vials directly to God.

You just contradicted yourself. Why would the 24 elders need to carry their prayers in golden vials if these earthly prayers "are borne directly to God?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Rev 5:8
[8] And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

I see nothing in this verse about men ON Earth praying TO beasts or TO twenty elders in Heaven.

Try again.

A better translation is "living beings". "Beast" is a secondary definition.
Anyway - this verse shows INTERCESSION by those in Heaven on our behalf.

 

[Philip James]

If i May.

because you are placing them equal to God, omnipresent, with the ability to hear all things

Seriously?

Neither I, nor my brothers and sisters believe that angels and saints are 'equal to God', or that they are omnipresent.

We do not confuse creatures for our Creator, neither do we offer sacrifice to them.

If there is no basis for this charge of blasphemy, i suggest it be withdrawn...

Peace!

 

[Philip James]

Why would you attempt to make God do something that He doesn't do in order to fit your doctrine?

Why do you need the saints?

Hello jbf,

Miracles wrought by God when seeking the intercession of the Saint's, is evidence that God does indeed hear their prayers,
And that availing ourselves of those prayers is beneficial.

Why do we need each other?
We are One! When one suffers we all suffer, one rejoice we all rejoice etc?..

We help each other because we love one another!

Peace!