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justbyfaith

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justbyfaith

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Hello jbf,

Miracles wrought by God when seeking the intercession of the Saint's, is evidence that God does indeed hear their prayers,
And that availing ourselves of those prayers is beneficial.

Why do we need each other?
We are One! When one suffers we all suffer, one rejoice we all rejoice etc?..

We help each other because we love one another!

Peace!

I don't have a book that tells me what saint to pray to for any given specific situation; so I will trust that in praying to Jesus, my prayer will be answered (John 14:13-14).

Why convolute things by having specific people to pray to over certain specific kinds of needs?

Isn't Jesus sufficient?
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Seriously?

Neither I, nor my brothers and sisters believe that angels and saints are 'equal to God', or that they are omnipresent.

We do not confuse creatures for our Creator, neither do we offer sacrifice to them.

If there is no basis for this charge of blasphemy, i suggest it be withdrawn...

Peace!
Yet here they are in heaven hearing prayers from people all over the earth.

how can this be unless they are like God
 

justbyfaith

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And the KJV text is based on the latest and therefore the most corrupt manuscripts.

Not necessarily the most corrupt.

It retains certain words that are important to the Christian life that are omitted by certain other manuscripts.

And I, for one, do not want to be cheated out of reading / hearing something that will edify my soul that is not included in some modern translation that I might read / hear.

I am happy to know that I can read the whole counsel of God in my kjv...

Where no word of exhortation is excluded from the text.

I am glad to know that I have not taken away from the word...

Whereas if I have added to the word by holding to the kjv, I am certain that the plagues of the book of Revelation will be added to me...I am also thankful to know that I have not taken away from the word by adhering to a translation that does so...and therefore my part in the holy city and the book of life will not be taken away (see Revelation 22:18-19).
 

Berserk

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I don't have a book that tells me what saint to pray to for any given specific situation; so I will trust that in praying to Jesus, my prayer will be answered (John 14:13-14).

Why convolute things by having specific people to pray to over certain specific kinds of needs?

Isn't Jesus sufficient?

First, you forget that John 14:13-14 applies to the time when Jesus is present physically or in resurrection appearances. But when the Paraclete or Holy Spirit is poured out, Jesus teaches us to to pray directly to the Father, not to Jesus, and to pray to the Father in Jesus' name (John 16:23--note the phrase "on that day").
Second, praying to Mary and the saints produces miracles, which I have documented and which you have ducked. By contrast, you have never witnessed an indisputable miracle, now have you? Enough said.
Third, you don't seem to realize that after thousands of years of manuscript copying, countless errors created by sleepy monks sneak into biblical Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. Because the KJV is based on the latest and most corrupt manuscripts, it distorts the Word of God more than other modern translation which had the advantage of consulting earlier and provably more reliable texts.
 

justbyfaith

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By contrast, you have never witnessed an indisputable miracle, now have you?

I have in fact seen indisputable miracles; even among Protestant congregations.

Enough said.

Indeed.

Third, you don't seem to realize that after thousands of years of manuscript copying, countless errors created by sleepy monks sneak into biblical Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. Because the KJV is based on the latest and most corrupt manuscripts, it distorts the Word of God more than other modern translation which had the advantage of consulting earlier and provably more reliable texts.

I simply disagree with you. I will hold to the fact that the kjv is inspired and inerrant to my dying day.
 

Taken

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That goes to show how little you understand Scripture.

The Church is known by MANY descriptions in the NY – but they are just thatDESCRIPTIONS . . .

Bride of Christ
Revelation 21:9


Body of Christ
Ephesians 1:22-23


Church of the Living God
1 Timothy 3:15


Church of the first-born
Hebrews 12:23


Flock of God
1 Peter 5:2


God's building
1 Corinthians 3:9


House of God
1 Timothy 3:15


Pillar and ground of the truth
1 Timothy 3:15


House of Christ
Hebrews 3:6


Church of God-
Is Christs Church-
Is EVERY Church - whose Foundation-
Is:
Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
Is: Christ Jesus'- True Church

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

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Taken: "I have no consideration for philosophies of men...in an attempt to obfuscate..."

LOL. You have obviously never taken a course on philosophical Logic because you unwittingly just admitted you "have no consideration" for critical thinking.


I'm sorry you failed to comprehend with your "philosophical Logic" and "critical thinking", the "Topic of Discussion was Scripture".

And absolutely...on the Topic of Scripture...
Using Philosophical Logic to conclude an understanding of The Word of God...
IS to me, of NO Consideration.

The Word of God, IS The Truth.
Your Choice is to, Believe ^ That ^ in your hearts thoughts....or not.

Your Carnal Mind, is that which developes (ever changing) ideas to pick and choose to conclude a belief that MAKES Sense to ones pea brain of little knowledge.

Hint-
The Carnal Mind is Against God.
God Searches a man's Heart for the man's Truth.

Conclusion-
Philosophies of men and logical conclusions are of no advantage in Believing or Understanding The Word of God!

Secret-
God is Mysterious. One can Not See Him as He is, and can Not Hear Him as He is...
But you are going to Lean on Philosophies of men and Senses of critical Mindful Conclusions, that He Exists? LOL


Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

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A better translation is "living beings". "Beast" is a secondary definition.
Anyway - this verse shows INTERCESSION by those in Heaven on our behalf.

If it is your understanding...
Bodily Living men are taught and directed to "Pray To" (for intercession on ones behalf) Living Souls OUTSIDE of their Dead Body.
That's you, not me.

I disagree, (no matter how one twists the Truth), that Living souls IN a Body are Taught TO "PRAY TO" Living Souls Outside of a Dead Body.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

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As usual, your cherry-picking prompts you to duck the verses that decisively refute your claim. Let's consider just 4 such verses:

LOL- oops I noticed "cherry picking"...was meant to be a derogatory term toward me...
But then "your cherry picking" is something I should consider. :D [/QUOTE]

Perhaps you require a Lesson...
-BreadOFLife (this lesson might be useful to you as well, since you yourself, only favor "cherry picking" when it is YOU that "cherry picks".)

No one knows the True Hearts Thoughts of an individual's spirit, BUT that individual's spirit and the Spirit of God!

1 Cor 2:
[11] For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Every student of Scripture;
Should Know;
1) All Scripture IS True.
2) Some Scripture Applies to Believers.
3) Some Scripture Applies to Non-Believers.
4) Scriptures (pay close attention) that Applies to Believers...DOES NOT APPLY TO Non-Believers!!!
5) Scriptures (pay close attention) that Applies to Non-Believers...DOES NOT APPLY TO Believers.
6) Review...1 Cor 2:11
7) Only the Individual and God knows a man's True Thoughts in his OWN (spirit).
8) It is the Individual himself, that Divides the Word of Truth, ....CHERRY PICKS... Scriptures That Applies to him, and Negates, Scriptures THAT DO NOT Apply to him!!

2 Tim 2:
[15] Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

So Yes, Absolutely "I cherry pick" Scripture, that Applies TO ME.

And Expressly to BOL, YOU, are Not me, Nor are YOU, qualified, to Dictate, what Word of God, Does or Does NOT Apply to me!

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

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Let's consider just 4 such verses:

Okie dokie, let's consider "your cherry picked" verses. ;)

(1) "What good is it, brethren, if a man says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him (James2:14)."

This rhetorical question assumes that the answer is an emphatic "No!" and that faith is a process. [/QUOTE]

James 2:
[14] What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Disagree with your understanding.
James 2 chapteris About:
*
First, having no regard for an others outside appearance of Wealth, implied by his fine clothing.
*
The Scripture speaks of what is on the "inside". Is a man's RICHNESS, Being;
RICH IN FAITH !
(NOT outside material wealth).
*
The Scripture speaks of an expectation to Be Judged without mercy, if one himself shows no mercy.
*
The Scripture then speaks of WORKS.

You should already comprehend:
* One man CAN NOT SEE Gods Gift of "FAITH" given Another man.


* James 2:
[17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Pay Attention:
The Justification...of one man's FAITH, is BEING JUDGED "JUSTIFIED"
BY ANOTHER MAN!
BY the WORKS, Another man Does toward the one Judging!


Works do Not Justify any Man To Receive Salvation.

Faith is a Gift from God, that Expressly, one must Have, To be Justified BY God, to receive Salvation.

Works is Expressly, HOW One man WHO claims Faithfulness IN God, "Justifies" before another man's, "EYES", that his good works Toward another man....ARE Because of that One man's Faithfulness IN God!

Works toward another, BY a faithful man; IS a Two Fold Justification.
1) it reveals the works toward the other IS being Accomplished BY a man Faithful to God.
2) it Gives Credit TO GOD, of His Gift of Faith, To the man, is the Reason the man CAN accomplish Good Works.

Bottom line remains.
* No man is Saved Without Faith.
* Faith is a Gift from God.

* Good Works, of a Faithful man, Glorifies God.
* Any man being on the receiving end of Good Works, "Knowing", the man Doing the Works, is Doing the Works...Because of the man Having Faithfulness IN God...
Just might have an incling to desire the Same for himself!!!

Do you not understand the difference of a man Works solely for "his own benefit", that Any man can do...
And a Faithful man, Who Works for "Gods benefit" of Glorifying Gods Great Name?

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Berserk

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ALL the academic commentaries on James agree with my interpretation of 2:14. So your rejection of logic, and more specifically, of the nature of rhetorical questions and the distinction between necessary and sufficient conditions for salvation reduces your response self-refuting screed from the carefully sheltered myopic OSAS Ghetto. James does not claim that good works merit salvation. He would agree that we are saved by grace through faith. But James understands what you do not--that the word "faith" ("pistis") means both "trust" and "faithfulness," and so, works are a NECESSARY but not a SUFFICIENT condition for salvation. We are saved by a new way of being, not by mindlessly getting our ticket punched to heaven without regard to what kind of spirituality we display.
 

Philip James

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Yet here they are in heaven hearing prayers from people all over the earth.

how can this be unless they are like God

EG,

I do not know if (or how) saints and angels hear our requests directly.

I do know that God hears them.

I do know that our guardian angels hear them.

I do know that the cloud of witnesses that surround us hear them..

I also know that such prayers are efficacious, as God has wrought countless miracles at the invocation of the Saints, including with my own son.

Isn't Jesus sufficient?

It is not a question of Jesus or the saints, but both/and!

No one 'must' invoke the help of the Saints, but why not avail yourself of their help?

Do you never ask anyone to pray for you?
Do you refuse if someone asks you to pray for them?

Why would God wait through countless prayers from me and many others for my son, and then heal him when I brought him to Br. Andre's tomb and asked Br. Andre for his intercession?

Saint Brother André - L'Oratoire Saint-Joseph du Mont-Royal


I will proclaim the great things God has done for me and my son and any who call that blasphemy... Well they can take it up with Jesus...

Peace be with you!
 

BreadOfLife

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Church of God-
Is Christs Church-
Is EVERY Church - whose Foundation-
Is:
Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
Is: Christ Jesus'- True Church

Glory to God,
Taken
Sooooo, basically, you have NO answer for the fact that the Church is known by MANY descriptions in the NT - so you'll just stick to your guns.
The last bastion of the truly desperate . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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If it is your understanding...
Bodily Living men are taught and directed to "Pray To" (for intercession on ones behalf) Living Souls OUTSIDE of their Dead Body.
That's you, not me.

I disagree, (no matter how one twists the Truth), that Living souls IN a Body are Taught TO "PRAY TO" Living Souls Outside of a Dead Body.

Glory to God,
Taken
Those people in Heaven are members of the Body of Christ - just like those living on earth.

MY question for YOU is this:
When were they kicked OUT of the Body of Christ?
 
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justbyfaith

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2) Some Scripture Applies to Believers.
3) Some Scripture Applies to Non-Believers.

Some scriptures apply to both.

ALL the academic commentaries on James agree with my interpretation of 2:14.

In the Life Application Bible:

"When someone claims to have faith, what he or she may have is intellectual assent--agreement with a set of Christian teachings--and as such it would be incomplete faith. True faith transforms our conduct as well as our thoughts. If our life remains unchanged, we don't really believe the truths we claim to believe."

This agrees with my interpretation of James 2:14; which includes the concept that we are saved by grace through faith and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).

It does not say here that we are saved by works. What it indicates is that a man is saved by a faith that works.

"We are saved by grace through faith alone; but faith that saves is never alone."

God imutes righteousness to the believer apart from works (Romans 4:6).

To him that worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness (Romans 4:5).

We are saved by mercy and "not by works fo righteousness which we have done." (Titus 3:5).

When it comes to the election of the Lord unto salvation, grace and works are mutually exclusive (Romans 11:5-6 (kjv)).
 

justbyfaith

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You Catholics can chance it that you are not committing the sin of necromancy when you pray to the dead...

I am not going to take such a chance in my own personal life.
 

Taken

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Sooooo, basically, you have NO answer for the fact that the Church is known by MANY descriptions in the NT - so you'll just stick to your guns.
The last bastion of the truly desperate . . .

How many times do you have to be answered, before you get it?

Christ's Church is His Church "OF God".
It is Founded on the Rock solid principle;
Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
And ON the ROCK solid Foundation OF the Lord God Himself.

The Catholic Church is NOT the stand alone "True Church"!
(As Catholics are taught to claim!)

Every (man-MADE) Church that stands on the Foundational Principle;
Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God,
IS "OF Christ's Church, which IS, OF the Church OF God"!
 

Taken

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Those people in Heaven are members of the Body of Christ - just like those living on earth.

MY question for YOU is this:
When were they kicked OUT of the Body of Christ?

A person includes A BODY!!!
Do you really NOT understand...???
Body's Do NOT GO TO Heaven.
Body's Die and return to Dust.
(And it is customary to Bury in a Grave a Dead Body since, because the process of a Body returning to Dust, is they ROT, and STINK!!)

It is only Living Saved souls,
And
Quickened Living spirits
OF a (Bodily Dead man) that Go To Heaven!!!

Those people in Heaven are members of the Body of Christ - just like those living on earth.

MY question for YOU is this:
When were they kicked OUT of the Body of Christ?

Your premise is Dumb.
Therefore, your question, based on your premise is Dumb.

Learn what is the wholeness of A Whole Man...


1 Thes 5:
[23] ... your whole spirit and soul and body ...
 

Taken

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Some scriptures apply to both.

They can.
And some definitely Do Not apply.
The POINT Being;
What applies to me is for me to apply.
What applies for you is for you to apply.


Glory to God,
Taken