John Darby

[Taken]

Try Revelation 5:9-10...

The question is WHY is Christ's Church lifted up off the Face of the Earth TO the Clouds...

Rev 5:9-10 is not the Answer.
Rev 5:9 is "they" the Saved (souls) already in Heaven, observing the SEALS being opened by the Lamb of God, aka, the Lion of Judah.

Rev 5:
[9] And "they" sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
[10] And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

I suspect you do not keep the ORDER of What applies to Whom, When or Why...thus can not understand...the Difference Between:
The Who, What, When, Why, regarding Christ's Church, "Christ's People"...
And The Who, What, When, Why, regarding
Gods People".

Taken

 

[GISMYS_7]

Jesus says==Luke 21:36 36Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."
1 Thess 5:9: For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

 

[Ronald Nolette]

We all know that John Darby came up with the pre-tribulation rapture.

But did you know that Darby also

Invented electricity,
Wrote the consitution,
Came up with the theory of relativity,
The law of gravity
And the recipe for maple syrup.

In fact, if we look further back in history you will see that John Darby probably discovered fire and invented the wheel too.

God created teh pre trib rapture! Darby just dug it out after over a millenia of Roman amillenial lies to seek to keep the masses enslaved to their system.

Just like one can lose their salvation, purgatory, limbo, etc.etc.etc.

Too many people on these threads need psychological help for they are absolutely so obsessed with the man Darby, they are incapable of reading what living people write on the threads.

I didn't even know that it was Darby who reintroduced teh Biblical pre- trib rapture to the church until folks here kept yammering on about him!

 

[teamventure]

God created teh pre trib rapture! Darby just dug it out after over a millenia of Roman amillenial lies to seek to keep the masses enslaved to their system.

Just like one can lose their salvation, purgatory, limbo, etc.etc.etc.

Too many people on these threads need psychological help for they are absolutely so obsessed with the man Darby, they are incapable of reading what living people write on the threads.

I didn't even know that it was Darby who reintroduced teh Biblical pre- trib rapture to the church until folks here kept yammering on about him!

I agree whole heartedly.
It gets so ridiculous with people
mentioning Darby I thought I'd
make a satire post.

 

[Naomi25]

I agree whole heartedly.
It gets so ridiculous with people
mentioning Darby I thought I'd
make a satire post.

I also agree that Darby is not a sound attack against Dispensationalism. I think the doctrine falls by itself. *Just sayin.*

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I also agree that Darby is not a sound attack against Dispensationalism. I think the doctrine falls by itself. *Just sayin.*

Actually when you study systematic theology from a dispensational as opposed from a covenantal perspective you find out how biblically logical dispensational theology is!

These are the two major theologies all the sects of Christendom adhere two. Everything else is merely a variation of either two!

And yes dispensational and covenantal are both man made words to describer how one views the scriptures.

Dispensationalists rely mostly on what is known as the literal/historical/ grammatical hermeneutic to understand Scripture.

Covenantal theology adherents rely more on the allegorical method of heremenutic.

Dispensationalists recognize there is symbols in the bible and covenantalists recognize the literalness of much Scriptural.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You've confused the MILLENNIAL KINGDOM activities, with the "Rapture" at the END of the Millennial Kingdom where the DEAD are raised, and the THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN shall ascend with Jesus to the New Jerusalem TO BE WITH THE LORD FOREVER IN THE AIR.

You're awfully confused on so many things. Have you considered vetting you "thoughts" before you express them?
Bobby Jo

So you are a post millenial rapture believer???? Wow and you call Karas and me confused!!

The second resurrection at the end of the millenial kingdom is a resurrection the Bible says the second death has power (exousia, authority, jurisdiction and right) over. The second resurrection at the end of time is for those who are raised to be hurled into the lake of fire!

The church is the bride of Christ and we reign with Him during His kingdom reign.

 

[Davy]

God created teh pre trib rapture! Darby just dug it out after over a millenia of Roman amillenial lies to seek to keep the masses enslaved to their system.
....

That's hilarious, since God foretold He is against those He did not call that teach His people to fly to save their soul!

Ezek 13:18-20
18 And say, "Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

19 And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My people that hear your lies?

20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
KJV

What do we find many, many prosperity ministries preaching on the rapture?

They preach a Pre-tribulational 'fly away' rapture of the Church prior to the great tribulation.

"Hey brethren, be ye comforted, you're gonna' fly away! Now, give me YOUR MONEY!"

Since they lie and don't care who sees it, as long as they get people's money, I guess their followers have no problem doing the same.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Jesus says==Luke 21:36 36Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."
1 Thess 5:9: For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

 

[Davy]

Jesus says==Luke 21:36 36Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."
1 Thess 5:9: For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

Who was it, @Trekson that said they never heard a pre-tribber say that wrath isn't appointed to the Church in relation to a pre-trib rapture? Well, there it is.

Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5 was warning about the "day of the Lord" that will come "as a thief in the night". Paul said when the deceived say, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" will come upon them. That means the cup of God's wrath on the FINAL DAY of this world, which is when the "day of the Lord" will occur. Apostle Peter confirmed this also in 2 Peter 3:10 about that day being the day of God's consuming fire burning man's works off the earth.

Thus the 'wrath' Paul is pointing to is God's cup of wrath upon the wicked on the last day. THAT is the wrath he said those in Christ are not appointed to.

So which 'wrath' GISMYS_7, are YOU pointing to?

 

[GISMYS_7]

Who was it, @Trekson that said they never heard a pre-tribber say that wrath isn't appointed to the Church in relation to a pre-trib rapture? Well, there it is.

Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5 was warning about the "day of the Lord" that will come "as a thief in the night". Paul said when the deceived say, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" will come upon them. That means the cup of God's wrath on the FINAL DAY of this world, which is when the "day of the Lord" will occur. Apostle Peter confirmed this also in 2 Peter 3:10 about that day being the day of God's consuming fire burning man's works off the earth.

Thus the 'wrath' Paul is pointing to is God's cup of wrath upon the wicked on the last day. THAT is the wrath he said those in Christ are not appointed to.

So which 'wrath' GISMYS_7, are YOU pointing to?

The great tribulation is the wrath of God on this evil God rejecting world.
esus says==Luke 21:36 36Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."
1 Thess 5:9: For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

 

[Davy]

Thing is, the "sudden destruction" Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9, that happens on the "day of the Lord", is upon the WICKED on the FINAL DAY of this world. That is 7th Vial timing, the time of God's cup of wrath upon the wicked on earth, and it will end the tribulation. That is the wrath Paul said we are not appointed to. It's God's wrath on the LAST DAY of this world, NOT the great tribulation!

 

[Naomi25]

Actually when you study systematic theology from a dispensational as opposed from a covenantal perspective you find out how biblically logical dispensational theology is!

These are the two major theologies all the sects of Christendom adhere two. Everything else is merely a variation of either two!

And yes dispensational and covenantal are both man made words to describer how one views the scriptures.

Dispensationalists rely mostly on what is known as the literal/historical/ grammatical hermeneutic to understand Scripture.

Covenantal theology adherents rely more on the allegorical method of heremenutic.

Dispensationalists recognize there is symbols in the bible and covenantalists recognize the literalness of much Scriptural.

"Covenental theology adherents rely more on the allegorical method of hermeneutic".
I'm going to have to disagree with the fundamental understanding of the sentence here, I'm sorry. While Covenental theology certainly does, in some area's, recognize and use allegorical method, we only do so where the bible calls us to do so. We do not seek it if the genre does not call for it. If the genre of the book or text is literal, that's how we read it. If the book is historical, that's how we read it. We let scripture determine how we are to understand it.

And, with all due respect, I've spent years studying eschatology, and while I fully recognize Dispensationalists as my brothers and sisters in Christ, I do find it a flawed system. It has too many weaknesses and too many questions that cannot be answered satisfactorily.
And no....I'm not Catholic.

 

[Enoch111]

It has too many weaknesses and too many questions that cannot be answered satisfactorily.

That is quite inaccurate and misleading. Dispensationalism is able to provide an eschatology which is consistent with a plain, literal reading of Scripture. No need for allegories, fantasies, or changing the meaning of words.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

"Covenental theology adherents rely more on the allegorical method of hermeneutic".
I'm going to have to disagree with the fundamental understanding of the sentence here, I'm sorry. While Covenental theology certainly does, in some area's, recognize and use allegorical method, we only do so where the bible calls us to do so. We do not seek it if the genre does not call for it. If the genre of the book or text is literal, that's how we read it. If the book is historical, that's how we read it. We let scripture determine how we are to understand it.

And, with all due respect, I've spent years studying eschatology, and while I fully recognize Dispensationalists as my brothers and sisters in Christ, I do find it a flawed system. It has too many weaknesses and too many questions that cannot be answered satisfactorily.
And no....I'm not Catholic.

what a deceptive answer you gave. It is a tautology when one learns what actually is being said by the covenatal theologians.

For it is them that determine if a genre of Scripture is to be understood literal or allegorical. Convenient but dishonest!


Well I have been teaching Escatology for over 2 decades! I would like you to list three of what you think are fundamental flaws of dispensational escatology and give biblical support to your allegations!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That's hilarious, since God foretold He is against those He did not call that teach His people to fly to save their soul!

Ezek 13:18-20
18 And say, "Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

19 And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My people that hear your lies?

20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
KJV

What do we find many, many prosperity ministries preaching on the rapture?

They preach a Pre-tribulational 'fly away' rapture of the Church prior to the great tribulation.

"Hey brethren, be ye comforted, you're gonna' fly away! Now, give me YOUR MONEY!"

Since they lie and don't care who sees it, as long as they get people's money, I guess their followers have no problem doing the same.

So now you declare God is against dispensational saints as well? I hope you don't share the gospel with the lost! With an attitude like yours I don't think anyone would want to receive the Savior you preach!

But as for the health and wealth heretics? The wolves only hang around where the sheep are!

YOu can't fight against the Scripture I show you so you resort to name calling and ad-hominems. Pre-pubesence at its finest on display!

 

[Naomi25]

That is quite inaccurate and misleading. Dispensationalism is able to provide an eschatology which is consistent with a plain, literal reading of Scripture. No need for allegories, fantasies, or changing the meaning of words.

Two questions for you Enoch: 1- what if the 'literal' reading of scripture calls for allegory? Or do you deny that the authors of the bible use imagery at all, in how they got their inspired messages across? If you deny that, you deny a good portion of scripture, especially parts you Dispensationalists like to focus on...like Daniel. It's fairly obvious Daniel uses imagery there. If you allow imagery, allegory, you've just called a good portion...Daniel again, fantasy.
Allegory and imagery doesn't mean we allow ourselves to imagine fantastic 'whatevers' out of the text. It means the text in question uses imagery to portray certain very literal truths. The readers job is to use scripture itself to understand what those images are speaking about. Does that sound fantastic?

Second question- why on earth should I EVER reply to you? It seems very much to me that you exists here to make snarky comments about how 'outrageous' and 'ridiculous' and 'unbiblical' others are about such topics, and yet when questioned or challenged about such claims...when asked to back them up by scripture or even logical reasoning...crickets. Until your next dashing foray to insult.
I am, always have been, always will be, happy to discuss these topics because I believe them to be important. Not important enough to divide in fellowship over...I'm not going to call you a heretic or moron because of what you believe. I'm fairly clear that I think Dispensationalism is a mistaken doctrine, but I have always done my best to back up my claims and ideas with reasoning and scripture. It's a shame you've seemed to have given up on that. It does tend to make the tag 'you're wrong and I'm right' posts a little limp, If I'm being honest.

 

[farouk]

Two questions for you Enoch: 1- what if the 'literal' reading of scripture calls for allegory? Or do you deny that the authors of the bible use imagery at all, in how they got their inspired messages across? If you deny that, you deny a good portion of scripture, especially parts you Dispensationalists like to focus on...like Daniel. It's fairly obvious Daniel uses imagery there. If you allow imagery, allegory, you've just called a good portion...Daniel again, fantasy.
Allegory and imagery doesn't mean we allow ourselves to imagine fantastic 'whatevers' out of the text. It means the text in question uses imagery to portray certain very literal truths. The readers job is to use scripture itself to understand what those images are speaking about. Does that sound fantastic?

Second question- why on earth should I EVER reply to you? It seems very much to me that you exists here to make snarky comments about how 'outrageous' and 'ridiculous' and 'unbiblical' others are about such topics, and yet when questioned or challenged about such claims...when asked to back them up by scripture or even logical reasoning...crickets. Until your next dashing foray to insult.
I am, always have been, always will be, happy to discuss these topics because I believe them to be important. Not important enough to divide in fellowship over...I'm not going to call you a heretic or moron because of what you believe. I'm fairly clear that I think Dispensationalism is a mistaken doctrine, but I have always done my best to back up my claims and ideas with reasoning and scripture. It's a shame you've seemed to have given up on that. It does tend to make the tag 'you're wrong and I'm right' posts a little limp, If I'm being honest.

Hi @Naomi25 Here's another angle: some dispensationalists would say that minimizing the distinction between Israel and the church in Scripture can happen if passages are allegorized to the extent that distinct contexts are diminished in favour of vague allegories. As if to say: Well, it doesn't really matter whether a passage is strictly about Israel or the church, because we are going to lump them together anyway....(if you see what I mean? )

 

[Keraz]

Well I have been teaching Escatology for over 2 decades! I would like you to list three of what you think are fundamental flaws of dispensational escatology and give biblical support to your allegations!

You teach eschatology, but you mis-spell it?

Here is my answer to your requested 3 flaws of the dispensation theory:
1/ Jesus said we must continue to preach the Gospel until He comes again. Matthew 28:19-20, 1 Thessalonians 5:23

2/ We must keep strong in our faith and endure until the the end of this age. Matthew 24:13, Revelation 14:12, Hebrews 10:36-39

3/ There is no general Jewish redemption. The forthcoming Day of the Lords fiery wrath, will strike the Middle East and destroy all the ungodly and unbelieving peoples. Ezekiel 30:1-5, Ezekiel 20:1-8, Isaiah 22:14, Zephaniah 1:1-18
Only a remnant of the Christian Jews will survive. Isaiah 29:1-4, Romans 9:27
There is only one people of God. John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6

The whole idea of a 'rapture to heaven', is a deception and is never prophesied to happen in the Bible.

 

[Naomi25]

what a deceptive answer you gave. It is a tautology when one learns what actually is being said by the covenatal theologians.

My answer was deceptive, was it? That rather assumes I am purposely lying rather than just being stupid, even if your conclusions are correct. Which they are not.
I salute you for delving into the subject for 2 decades, but clearly that has not bought clarity on what covenantal theology, as a whole, believes.

For it is them that determine if a genre of Scripture is to be understood literal or allegorical. Convenient but dishonest!

I'm sorry, but...seriously? You think we come to a book like...let's say Daniel, shall we...and go..."I shall declare, that the latter portion of this book shall be read in allegory!" And lo and behold, the images appear, thus we determine to read them as such. Because even a walnut can see that imagery is used in Daniel.
You're basically saying we're throwing out all ideas of previously held literacy, established and recognized long throughout history.
I'll tell you what happens, it's pretty darn clear that there are images in the book. Yeah? I know it well, because Dispensationalists LOVE Daniel...they're all over the images.
The cool thing about Daniel is that God tells us what the images are. Wasn't that nice of Him? So that way, us nasty covenantal folks can't make them say whatever we want, as we like to...apparently.
Things...it seems, get tricky when we get to a book like Revelation. The problem arises because if we don't read it "literally", then things aren't going to go like the Dispensational timetable has all laid out. But here's the thing....the same imagery is used in Revelation as it is in Daniel. And Ezekiel, and Isaiah, and Joel...and keep going. All throughout the OT. God, in his goodness and wisdom has given us what we need to interpret the images...again, so we can't make helicopter appear out the sky. Because that's the honest to goodness literal reading of it. Cross my heart.

Well I have been teaching Escatology for over 2 decades! I would like you to list three of what you think are fundamental flaws of dispensational escatology and give biblical support to your allegations!

HOT DOG! Do you mean it? You're on.
The first is the problem with the Millennium. I mean, where does it biblically fit? The bible continuously talks of 2 ages. Not 3, 2. We see this is these passages:

Blasphemy:
This Age: Blasphemy not forgiven, Matt. 13:32
Age to Come: Blasphemy not forgiven, Matt. 13:32
Eternal Life:
Age to Come: Receive Eternal Life, Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30
Marriage:
This Age: Marry and Given in Marriage, Luke 20:34
Age to Come: No marriage in age to come, Luke 20:35
Power and Superiority of God:
This Age: Power and Superiority of God in this age, Eph. 1:21
Age to Come: Power and Superiority of God in the age to come, Eph. 1:21
Present age is evil:
This Age: Evil in present age, Gal. 1:4
Receive 100 times:
This Age: In the present age (Greek "time"), Mark 10:30 Rulers:
This Age: Rulers of this age, 1 Cor. 2:6

If there is only this age, and the age to come, and consistently we see this age is things temporal and sinful, and the one to come is things eternal and sinless, where does the Millennium fit? I'm not denying scripture speaks of one, but I am suggesting that from the clear teaching of the '2 ages', we must put it in one or the other. Which leads me to my next 'problem'. But I might put it in a new post, or this one will get too long.