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Featured John Darby

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by teamventure, Aug 13, 2020.

  1. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    If you would simply take you Bible for what it says, rather than trying to dodge the obvious, you would see where the Millennium LITERALLY fits.

    1. The Marriage of the Lamb -- Revelation 19
    2. The Second Coming of Christ -- Revelation 19
    3. The battle of Armageddon -- Revelation 19
    4. The Antichrist and the False Prophet in Hell -- Revelation 19
    5. Satan imprisoned in the bottomless pit -- Revelation 20
    6. The resurrection of the Tribulation saints -- Revelation 20
    7. The Millennium -- "(a or the) thousand years" -- Revelation 20
     
  2. Keraz

    Keraz Well-Known Member

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    This list is correct. There are more details of course, such as the fulfillment of the Feasts.
    It is when people try to fit a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, that error and confusion sets in.
     
  3. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Lol! Oh Enoch. You speak of dodging and don’t see the irony. I cannot remember the last time you answered a post I addressed to you. Not a question, not a theological thought or doctrinal pondering.
    What you consistently do, is dart in, make snarky little comments about my understanding...giving very little to no biblical basis for your point of view, demand I fess up to how wrong and “absurd” I am and how clearly right you are, then dash off again. What you dodge is having to defend your position at all. Biblically, logically, rationally, as if the truth of your doctrines stand by the simple force of your declarations. It sort of cute.
    The thing that truly tickles me is that you seem to honestly feel like you can demand answers from me when you haven’t given me the simple curtesy in quite some time.
    Time to grow up, hmm? If you have zero interest conversing with me, answering me...just ignore me. That’s what the big people do. ‘Kay?
     
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  4. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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  5. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    Naomi25 said:
    My third flaw, as I see it, is 1 Cor 15:20-28 and 50-55. I think this passage marks a serious problem with the timing of Dispensational flow. QUOTE]









    Well let us answer these verses and your explanation last to first.

    Rev. 20:11-15

    This is by implication the second resurrection!

    Remember this passage:

    20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

    2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

    3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    By the time of Jesus return, all the righteous dead will have been resurrected.
    The resurrection at the end of the 1000 year kingdom, the second death has authority over them as SCripture explicitly says.

    Matt. 25:31-46 The gathering of teh nations!

    When Jesus physically returns, there will be survivors of the judgments of the tribulation and the campaign of Armageddon!

    These are gathered before teh Lord and the sheep are the gentile believers and the goats are the gentile unbelievers. The believing Jews are with Jesus for He physically returned at Petra to break the siege of the Antichrist to wipe out all Jews and they march with Him and His angels to Jerusalem. 1/3 of all Jews will survive the tribulation and receive Jesus as Messiah (the all Israel of Romans 11 and Zech 13

    So He judges all people! the goats go to the place of torment awaiting resurrecting to go to the lake of fire.
    The sheep are granted entrance into the millenial kingdom on earth and repopulate the earth.

    John 25: Yes a time is coming when the dead will hear his voice. However that verse is given further clarification to show that that "hour" is separated by at least 1,000 years. That word hour did not exist in Hebrew time and hour (hora) is a common word for a time!

    Matt. 13:36-

    Here I do not have the time to go into all the detail of the difference in this use of age. But in synopsis, Jesus is talking to the Jews (disciples) and is referring to the granting them of the kingdom. Age here does not = the two ages of time and eternity. Age does mean many things in SCripture.

    YOUR 1 Cor. 15 passage fails to add one thing. The Church is clearly shown in heaven prior to Jesus return! REv. 19: The tribulation saints and OT saints in heaven shout for the wedding of Jesus has come and His bride (the church) has made herself ready and has been given her robes and linen fine and clean!



    The problem with post trib or post millenial rapture is this:

    The church is not complete in its number so the bride of Christ is not complete.
    The bride is only teh church and in REv. 19 PRIOR to Jesus return- the bride is already ready and clothed- so she had to be taken to heaven and gone through the bema seat judgment. You simply cannot have members of the body of Christ on earth suffering the tribulation and yet the bride be ready to be married and she has nothing but righteousness.


    My third flaw, as I see it, is 1 Cor 15:20-28 and 50-55. I think this passage marks a serious problem with the timing of Dispensational flow.

    But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
    I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:


    “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
    “O death, where is your victory?
    O death, where is your sting?” -1 Corinthians 15:15:20–28,50–55

    You just forget when death is finally swallowed up in victory!

    It occurs here!
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Even the lost are given incorruptible, immortal bodies prior to being cast into the lake of fire!
     
  6. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    Thank you both for noticing the mote in my eye. I guess that means I can now see better to remove the :pbeam in yours!
     
  7. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    No I and I am surprised you find a disconnect.

    Please quote the posts where I called them fanatical and deceptive OK?

    Please quote the post # where I called you deceptive or else repent of your bearing false witness.

    Now He is bringing Israel into the one body of Christ. But after the rapture those saints are not part of the church!
    As for teh saved Jews? Well If you wish I can give you a lengthy list of how they reign on teh earth, (those who survived the trib and received Jesus as Messiah the 1/3 of Zech). The gentile nations annually come and bring tribute to Jerusalem or else their nation receives no rain that year in teh millenium.

    So the Church was born at Pentecost and ends at the Rapture! All other believers outside of this time period are either friends of the bridegroom who witness the wedding of Jesus to us in Heaven (REv. 19) or enter into the millenium as survivors of the great trib and the war at Jesus return.

    I wish I could believe that! But the major non dispensational work for non dispensationalists was written by Lorraine Boetner and He goes way out of the bible to interpret many symbolic biblicsal things.

    Also I have seen people here cite preachers from you tibe who rejejct the antichrist as a person, a one world govt. as well as many other things the bible defines in its imagery.

    YOu , as I have dealt with over the years then are an exception to the rule.

    And Naomi how you say you let the Bible interpret itself and that you see a future for national Israel, puts you far more into the dispensational camp than the covenantal camp. The major separation point between both is the nature and future of the nation of Israel.

    Well quoting them from psalms is a problem for psalms are poetic and use highly metaphoric phrasing often! And "eleph" is also used as a large company. The meaning being that the Lord owns it all. And one day is better than 1,000 elsewhare. Shame on you for not recognizing the phraseology here.

    As for Peter. Because the word "as" appears, that tells the reader the word 1,000 is being used metaphorically, to denot that the Lord is longsuffering. Using a comparative and in the context of the long suffering of God is a strong clue!

    No 1,000 years is used oftenin REv. 20 and appears without use of any comparatives and metaphorical settings. The question is what evidence do you ise to say that this time frame should not be taken literaslly? Jesus promises to come back and establish a kingdom, REv. says how long it lasts!

    Well I can't agree that numbers in revelation are symbolic. I believe there are three unclean spirits, I believe in the demon army of 200,000,000

    the seven heads and ten horns are literal numbers on the symbolic beast.

    666 is a literal number.

    Show your evidence that the numbers in revelation are mere symbols and not to be taken literally when they are used.


    But let us assume you are correct (and I am just assuming) symbolic things have something literal to fulfill them. What answer do you hypothesize for the 1,000 years!
     
  8. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    Well we are in the mystery form of the kingdom now! but as for now? The two things that Sripture says Jesus is busy doing are these:

    John 14
    King James Version

    14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

    2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

    3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


    As a good betrothed Jew, He is now in the process of building a home for His bride in His Fathers house!

    Also:

    Hebrews 7:25
    Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    He is still in His role as High priest! He has not established His rule, though He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords!

    Satan is still the temporary king of this world!

    Revelation 11:15
    And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    So unless you believe this verse already occurred, Jesus has not taken reign over the earth yet!

    Revelation 11:15
    And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.



    Context Naomi, context!

    When Jesus came to earth, He first announced the promised Kingdom to Israel and had the disciples preach th esame- "Repent! The Kingdom of heaven is at hand!" Jesus came to establish the kingdom . He knew Israel would reject it, but the offer was still legitimate!

    When the leaders of Israel committed the unpardonable sin in MAtt. 12, the Kingdom was revoked and no more was the kingdom announced, for Jesus said it would be given to a different generation of Israel.

    The Kingdom of Heaven has always existed and Jesus is Prince of that kingdom. The Father is king of heaven. Jesus sits at the throne at the Fathers right hand. In those days that made HIm the highest favored and heir. After the millenial kingdom ends, Jesus turns it over to teh Father and submits to teh Father once again! This is the Millenial Kingdom Jesus reigns over as Lord of all! There are different kingdomes spoken of in the NT and we need to be careful to know the differences.

    Right now we live in the mystery form of the kngdom as spoken of in the parables!

    There is one!

    Acts 1:6
    King James Version

    6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

    7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

    Read full chapter

    Now despite what many would say- Jesus is not even hinting that the kingdom for Israel is done. He says it is in His Fathers power! Not HIs. We must remember tthat the New Testament is:
    1. Gospels-Acts the transition from Israel to the church
    2. Romans-Jude the instructions of rthe church
    3. REv. 4-end The events of teh end of the world.

    We are living in teh the time of the gentiles where Jesus is calling out a people for HImself. Israel today in getting saved become the betrothed to Jesus. but in the OT Israel was the wife of Jehovah and the Jews who get saved in the trib period will be th ewife agaian ! (god has promised to rewed Israel)

    So we should not expect to see anything after the first five books on te kngdom for Israel. It was all spelled out in teh OT and were onfinrmed by the Father with teh words "and it shall come to pass" an others like "the word of the Lord has declared it".

    If you request I can give you a lengthy list of th epromises ofthe kngdom to Israel in teh old and are not revoked at all!

    or better yet I would encourage you to invest in two books:

    "Footsteps of the Messiah" and "Israelology, the Missing Link in Systematic Theology." both by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum. They are very lengthy and kind of pricey, but well worth it in my opinion. They go into the depth a site like this does not give the privilege to.
     
  9. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    My facts are straight, right out of God's written Word, and according to historical Pre-tribulationalism. It's some like you on that theory that keep trying to modify your doctrines. Pre-tribulationalists used to heavily preach about Jesus coming "as a thief in the night" to mean He will remove us 'at any moment', because we are not appointed to 'wrath' (their meaning the tribulation of course). Well what timing was Apostle Paul speaking of in 1 Thess.5 about the "sudden destruction" upon the wicked? The "day of the Lord" which he said will come "as a thief in the night"! Thus Pre-tribulationalism has by mistake traditionally taught we fly away when Jesus comes "as a thief in the night", when that time per God's Word actually means the FINAL DAY of this present world!

    That's why I also tend to laugh when I hear brothers try to teach that the "day of the Lord" is about the "great tribulation", when it's not according to God's Word. That 'day' is the LAST DAY of this world, when God's consuming fire will burn man's works off this earth, just as Apostle Peter said in 2 Peter 3:10. Can't be no tribulation going on when that happens.

    So those pushing the lie that the great tribulation Lord Jesus warned of is the "day of the Lord" are pushing a political agenda against Christ's Church! That because the Scripture is very simple to understand, so one who refuses to abide by it as written show they have no intention of keeping to God's written Word, and have fallen away from Christ Jesus.
     
  10. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    More NONSENSE from Davy (as usual). The Great Tribulation and the Day of the LORD are one and the same, and here is the proof:

    Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the Day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand... The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:(Joel 2:1,10)

    For then shall be [The] Great Tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be... Immediately after The Tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (Mt 24:21,29)

    Note: Even though in Matthew 24:21 "the" is absent from before "Great Tribulation", it is very definitely present in Revelation 7:14 which speaks of The Tribulation, The Great
    [τῆς (tēs) θλίψεως (thlipseōs) τῆς (tēs) μεγάλης (megalēs)].
     
  11. Keraz

    Keraz Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 7:14 refers to the just happened Sixth Seal disaster.
    Thinking it refers to the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, is a mistake, as they plainly come later.

    'thlipseos' G2347 means; affliction, burden anguish, persecution, troubles and tribulation. The Sixth Seal Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, will be all of those!
    People who want to mix up Revelation to suit their own agenda, are making a serious mistake.
     
  12. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    Reason Joel 2 says the "day of the Lord" COMETH is because that's the last day, and also the ONLY day of Christ's return to gather His FAITHFUL saints who wait for Him.

    You left out many Scriptures that go with that Matthew 24 part, and you did it on purpose TO DECEIVE.

    Here is the actual Scripture flow of that Matthew 24 Chapter by Lord Jesus:

    Matt 24:21-31
    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
    23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
    24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    25 Behold, I have told you before.
    26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
    27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    KJV

    There is NO gathering by Christ written there until AFTER THAT TRIBULATION like He said there.

    The NONSENSE is from YOU, a LIAR and a DECEIVER.

    My proof is how you abuse that Matthew 24 Scripture, showing how you lie.
     
  13. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, for actually taking the time to put some thought and effort into this reply.
    The question of the 'first resurrection' and therefore what the 'implicated second' resurrection might be, has indeed been a dividing question. And it's true that this passage is the only passage that mentions 'first resurrection', to make us think that there could be 2.

    Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. -Revelation 20:4–6

    When it comes to understanding this passage, there are two questions we need to ask ourselves, biblically. The first is, who is it that the bible tells us suffer the 'second death', and thus, conversely, who does that mean the second death has no power over. And, what does the bible tell us about resurrection...or, as it also says, 'coming to life'...new life.

    The first question is easiest; the 'second death' is the lake of fire...eternal damnation. Anyone who's name is NOT found in the Lambs book of life is to be 'thrown' there. Thus we may say that everyone who calls on the name of Christ, the second death will have no power over them. They are partakers in this 'first resurrection' in some way.

    Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.-Revelation 20:14–15

    How so, you may ask? This is where we look at how believing in Christ brings new life.

    Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.- 2 Corinthians 5:17

    We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. -Romans 6:4

    But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. -Romans 7:6

    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, -1 Peter 1:3

    And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, -Colossians 2:13


    In an absolutely real way, we were dead, and when Christ saved us, we were made alive...our spirits were resurrected. Yes, we await a physical resurrection, which I would argue is the second resurrection.
    The problem with looking at Rev 20 and narrowing the 'first resurrection' to a single group, like 'tribulation martyrs', for example, because it says 'those who didn't take the mark of the beast', is that it actually gives us more parameters than that. It also says that just plain martyrs will be resurrected; 'those who have been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus'. That covers all of this last 2000 years of history. It also, as I pointed out above, tells us that those who celebrate the first resurrection are the ones the second death has no power over; that's Christian at large. John is covering the whole group of the elect. All the people who God:

    made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. -Revelation 1:6

    Nope, sorry, that doesn't cut it for me. Matt 25 says that:

    “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. - Matthew 25:31–32

    See that ALL in 'all the nations'? I think some solid biblical proof will be needed to suggest that Israel doesn't fit in with "all". Because as far as I'm aware, Romans 11 still says that Israel will need to bow before Christ. That means standing before his throne...his "glorious throne". There is no little "side throne excursus" in scripture that mentions a separate interlude for the Jews. Unless you think you can produce it....?

    I'm sorry, but what? How do you figure that this 'hour' is somehow separated by 1000 years? Does it say? Implicitly or explicitly? Anywhere? Such claims must be supported.

    Again...sorry. But while I am sympathetic to time issues (I often have them myself), such an explanation is simply untenable. There is no biblical backing or support for your claim. And considering Jesus makes a point during his parables to teach the Jews that the kingdom will be taken FROM them for their disobedience (Matt 21,22), again, your claim is made tenuous at best.
     
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  14. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Ok, three points here. First is, it's usually considered an hermeneutical mistake to take an exegetical lead from a 'harder to interpret' book like Revelation, over a very clear book like Corinthians. And by that I mean, scholars will, by rule of thumb, say that the gospels and espistles, are, as you like to call them, clearly straight out literal. No imagery, no metaphor or poetry or prophecy to make them...contentious...in their interpretation. Revelation, however, uses some of all of that. It's a letter, there's a little poetry...or perhaps singing, tossed in. Prophecy presented in stark images. That's why the books is called apocalyptic. And it is, by all and large, considered more controversial when it comes to interpreting it...not just what the images mean, but even the chronology of it. So starting with Revelation and making IT determine what Corinthians is saying, is not the best hermeneutical principle.

    Secondly, Rev 19 shows the Marriage of the Lamb happening right on the cusp of Christ's return. Let me show you what I mean:

    Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out,
    “Hallelujah!
    For the Lord our God
    the Almighty reigns.
    Let us rejoice and exult
    and give him the glory,
    for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
    and his Bride has made herself ready
    ;
    it was granted her to clothe herself
    with fine linen, bright and pure”—
    for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.
    And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.” Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords. -Revelation 19:6–16


    So, it seems that what we have is a declaration that the time of the marriage 'has come' and that the bride has made herself ready, yes? But, the same time we see the magnificent Christ not actually stand up for the bride, but crack open the sky and return. It seems to be all one event.
    Now, it seems to be a little ambiguous. It could mean the 'marriage' happened just prior to his return...but is doesn't say that. It could mean that Christ is returning SO THAT the marriage can take place...but it doesn't say that either. All that is said is that the time is upon them and the bride is ready. And Christ returns in glory.
    Now, you are free to believe what you want about it, but there is no way you can dogmatically claim the marriage happened in heaven before his return. First, because it doesn't say that. Second, not all the 'bride' was present at that point.
    My third 'point' here is: if you have an issue with "the Church has to be raptured because we see them returning behind Jesus in Rev 19", I will remind you, as I have done others, that there are currently plenty of believers in heaven right now, who are slated to receive their glorified bodies before "we who are left and alive", who can return with Christ. He doesn't need those of us left to have an army of believers at his back.

    I'm not sure I followed that thought entirely, I'm sorry, but what I got, I disagree with. You say "you simply cannot have members of the body of Christ on earth suffering the tribulation"
    And yet, Dispensationalist happily assign that for the "tribulation saints". Who must, in their minds, occupy some strange place in the family of God, not to truly matter. Its fine for them to 'be beaten'. The problem is, nothing, at all, anywhere in scripture, allows you to assign these people a different sort of 'christianity'. Which means that they too, are part of the body of Christ...the bride. So, how on earth do you explain leaving part of the bride on earth to be 'tortured' (Dispensational terms) while the other, good portion, revels in the promised protection and has the marriage supper?
    It's biblically unsupportable.

    Ah...no. No, I didn't forget...did you read my entire post? I directly linked 1 Cor 15 TO Rev 20. Because IF 1 Cor 15 tells us that AT Christ's return, when he gives us our new bodies...this is the 'end' that is spoken of clearly in the passage, that IF it is AT this moment that death is finally defeated, and death is the LAST enemy before the Kingdom is handed over to the Father....then of course it has to be linked to Rev 20 where death is tossed in the lake of fire. That IS its final defeat, is it not? That is, also, the last, true enemy to go, is it not, in Revelation as well...after the false prophet and the antichrist. After all those who were NOT found in the book of Life. Even after Satan himself. Rev 20 is absolutely clear, and matches 1 Cor 15 absolutely...death IS the FINAL enemy to be tossed in the lake of fire. And Rev 20, like 1 Cor 15, puts that after the 1000 years. Which is interesting, because 1 Cor 15 also puts it AT Christ's return AND the Rapture.
     
  15. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Hey, I don't have an issue with spelling, but it was a little...um...interesting to have a person get on his high horse about how long he'd been a teacher of this particular issue, then not even be able to consistently spell it. I like a good bit of back and forth in the hopes of learning something...because I am, always hoping to learn something...but there are a lot of people on here that have egos and opinions that don't always fit their claims. Sadly. But hey, I know plenty of people who can't spell at all and are scary smart, so I'm happy to see how we go.
     
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  16. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    Yet the first part of the Revelation 19 chapter seals what timing that marriage is with this...

    Rev 19:1-9
    19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, "Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
    2 For true and righteous are His judgments: for He hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of His servants at her hand.

    3 And again they said, "Alleluia." And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
    4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, "Amen; Alleluia."
    5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, "Praise our God, all ye His servants, and ye that fear Him, both small and great."
    6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth."

    7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready.
    8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
    9 And he saith unto me, "Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, "These are the true sayings of God."
    KJV


    I don't see how anyone can miss that those parts, "for He hath judged the great whore" and "hath avenged the blood of His servants at her hand", and "her smoke rose up for ever and ever", which are events for after the tribulation, thus making the "marriage of the Lamb" after the tribulation also.
     
  17. Keraz

    Keraz Well-Known Member

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    I very much like your good posts, Naomi.
    But in this paragraph, you seem quite confused. You omit to specify the verses that apply to what you are saying

    Revelation 20:1-10 is plainly describing events after Jesus Returns and up until the end of the Millennium. Then the GWT Judgments take place and Eternity commences.
    1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is a prophecy about the GWT and Eternity, not the Return of Jesus, and is definitely not a 'rapture to heaven'.
    Proved by how only then, is Death no more. Revelation 21:4
    Also proved by 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, that sets the final scene; AFTER the Millennium.
     
  18. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Post #495 you called my answer 'deceptive'. I quote: "what a deceptive answer you gave!"
    Not mistaken, not idiotic...deceptive. You believe I am willfully engaging in deception. And thus, as I am Covenantal, by extension that's how you perceive other Covenanatal theologians as well. You called their hermeneutical strategies "dishonest".

    Now, I tend to think it's a little dishonest of you to automatically assume I am being both deceptive AND dishonest. That would mean that I know and understand that what I 'believe' and teach is wrong, but teach and support it anyway. Instead, wouldn't a more...fair understanding be that I am perhaps...mistaken...in my belief?
    So...who is really bearing false witness? Have I called you a liar? A deceiver?

    Prove it. Where's the scripture that supports any of that.

    You know what I'd rather you do? I'd rather you address the scriptures I gave you first. If you will remember, YOU asked ME for issues. That means YOU need to address the things I bought forward. If you disagree with how I have presented my thoughts, and the scriptures I provided to support them, then you need to point out, passage by passage, how I was wrong and what they really mean.
    Thanks.

    Except, you still haven't dealt with the passages I presented that suggest that there IS no difference between the Rapture and the second coming of Christ. You can say there is a distinct difference until the cows come home, but until some serious exegesis either of your own, or in pointing out where my own was in error, its only your opinion...and everyone under the sun has an opinion. They don't mean much without the support of scripture.

    Sorry to burst your bubble, but he's really not. "The major"? Perhaps more 'one fish in a large pool of many'. This fellow wrote on Roman Catholicism and Postmillenialsm, sure, but there is such a rich pool out there. Herman Bavinck's Reformed Dogmatics 4 volume set is classic and is on my "I want pretty bad" list. If I can convince my husband spending that much on a set of books is a good idea. Louis Berkhof is 'major', DA Carson, Vern Poythress, Meredith Kline, Anthony A Hoekema, Michael Horton. Again, those are just a few names in a LARGE pool. Saying that "one" is "the major" is just misleading.
     
  19. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    And I've seen people here from "your tribe" who say the demons in Rev are helicopters. So literal!!
    We could play that game all day, but that dog won't hunt.

    No, it really doesn't. Many, many Amillennialists also see a future restoration of national Israel. Perhaps not in the same way Dispensationalist do (in a physical land etc in the millennial kingdom) but most certainly in a Romans 11 'grafted back onto the tree' way. You want to know why many of us see that? 'Cause it's the literal reading of Romans 11. And that's the way that books calls for it to be read. Am I still being deceptive or not?

    Wait...Revelation "isn't" a place where numbers or images are used symbolically....but the psalms ARE?
    And...seriously? You are PROVING MY POINT! Yes! 1000 HAS been used elsewhere symbolically...'owns all', 'better than anything else'. IS IT, such a stretch to then imagine it can also mean 'the fullness of time'?
    Let's be honest, IF the bible clearly uses it in these other ways...which you have fully admitted to...doesn't it then rest upon YOU to prove that it CANNOT, in any way, be used in this manner in this particular instance?

    Again, you state MY point for me. 1000 is often used 'metaphorically'. And IF it is done so, why do you say it CANNOT be done so again?

    Well, goodness...its not used with 'metaphorical' settings anywhere else, and yet you clearly had no problem using it such then. Were the cows metaphorical? Not really. God really does own all the real cows...on 1000 hills...and beyond.
    YOU ask me what evidence I have that Rev 20's use of 1000 is symbolic, but to be perfectly frank, you've just given it right back to me again.
    You've not given a single shred of reason why it cannot be seen that way.


    You refuse to agree that numbers in Revelation can be symbolic...but they can be elswhere...like the psalms. Got it.
    And as far as 'evidence'...I believe I provided a good deal of reasoning AND biblical verses. I can surely present more, but since you have a habit of presenting opinion rather than sound biblical exegesis, I suggest if you oppose me, you go first. If you object, then you tell me why they cannot be symbolic, especially if, as you already admit, they are elsewhere.
    Remember, YOU asked ME questions. I've put them to you, therefore it is for you to answer them, not demand them from me. I'm happy to engage in dialogue, but only where there is fair back and forth. I'm not going to spend my time presenting biblical arguments only to have you shoot back simple opinions which I have heard copious times before.
    Bible, and biblical proof. That's what I want.
     
  20. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    I agree that he is making a place for us. But here's the thing...you admitted to a serious flaw for your doctrine. We HAVE a kingdom now. No matter the particular format, there still IS a kingdom now. And a kingdom must, to make it a kingdom, have a king. That king is Christ.
    Can you prove otherwise? And if not, then my point is valid and you have not disproved it.

    Mmm, see, you yourself use the wording that makes the stark difference here. Jesus is "King of Kings and Lord of Lords".
    Remember how Herod was 'king' in Jerusalem. But...he wasn't really where the power was, was he? He was...allowed...to be 'king' by Rome. Rome 'delivered' the kingship over to Herod, and without their permission to be enthroned in Jerusalem, his power would have meant...nothing.
    Likewise with Satan, we see he is but a temporary ruler. Luke 4:6 tells us that Satan himself acknowledges that his power and authority on earth has been 'delivered' to him. By whom? God. And when Christ rejected him, then defeated him on the cross, going back to sit down at the Fathers right hand, Satan's rule went "on the clock". He is now counted as one of those powers that are already "under Christ's feet". The second Christ returns, he's done. In fact, hes SO done, 1 Cor 15 doesn't even mention him. It mentions death. Death is the last enemy. And we see that in Rev 20 as well, death goes into the lake of fire after the devil.
    My point being, Jesus Christ is, clearly, King...now. There IS a kingdom now, with a king. And if we have both....where does it fit into the scheme of things?

    Notice how it says "forever and ever"? This gives you a little clue about WHEN it's talking about. This is clearly speaking about the moment 'this age' turns into 'the age to come', when things become eternal.
    But you yourself have only just previously admitted that the kingdom comes in 2 stages...a 'mystery' stage, and then an obvious one. The one above, is clearly the obvious one. But, as I point out above, it still doesn't change the fact that the bible CLEARLY labels what we have now as "a kingdom", with Christ as its head. No way out of it.

    OH COME ON! You lecture ME about context and then come out with this??? Jesus didn't "revoke the kingdom and give to a different generation of Israel". Let's read who Jesus DID offer it to.

    The Parable of the Tenants
    “Hear another parable. There was a master of a house who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and built a tower and leased it to tenants, and went into another country. When the season for fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants to get his fruit. And the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first. And they did the same to them. Finally he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.”
    Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
    “‘The stone that the builders rejected
    has become the cornerstone;
    this was the Lord’s doing,
    and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
    Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.”
    When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them. And although they were seeking to arrest him, they feared the crowds, because they held him to be a prophet. -Matthew 21:33–46

    Okay, lest you misunderstand as badly as you seem to have previously, let me walk you through it: the master of the vineyard is God, the tenants are Israel, the servants are the prophets, the Son is Jesus. And the "other tenant"...the "a people" is NOT "a later generation of the same people, same 'tenants' who stayed there and grew sorry for what they had done, but, actually OTHER tenants. Actually A people. And for someone who claims a literal reading, its not hard to LOOK at what happened. The Kingdom of God was extended to the Gentiles.


    The Parable of the Wedding Feast
    And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.”’ But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.“But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ For many are called, but few are chosen.” -Matthew 22:1–14


    Alright, again: the King is the father, the son is Christ. The servants are the prophets and disciples. When those originally invited would not come and killed the prophets, the king grew angry and sent troops to burn their city and then sent out the 'disciples' to call all, good and bad from 'all roads'...everywhere. Of course, only those who truly believe can be seated at the banquet, but the call now goes out to all. Again, to the literalist, who's city got burned to the ground after rejecting the Messiah? Who did the call go out to to come to the Kingdom of God? "To Judea, Samaria and the ends of the earth". Not..."hang tight in Jerusalem for a few hundred years and try again".

    Context! Or, you know, just plain old straight readin' of the text.
    And might I just add, you can't argue for a 2 stage kingdom, then also argue that it's actually been withdrawn for this period of time. That just makes zero sense. Logically AND biblically.
     
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